Wyeast 1968 and Fuller's ESB

Hi,

I'm trying to create a recipe for Fuller's ESB. I know that there are many recipes on the internet for this beer. I was listening to the interview with the brewer on the show "Can You Brew It ?" and here is what I have so far.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 6.34 gal
Estimated OG: 1.060 SG
Estimated Color: 12.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 36.8 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
11.40 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (3.0 SRM) Grain 94.61 %
0.65 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 5.39 %
0.90 oz Target [11.00 %] (60 min) Hops 33.4 IBU
0.10 oz Northdown [8.50 %] (5 min) Hops 0.6 IBU
0.50 oz Challenger [7.50 %] (5 min) Hops 2.5 IBU
0.10 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (5 min) Hops 0.3 IBU
1 Pkgs London ESB Ale (Wyeast Labs #1968) [StarteYeast-Ale


Anyway, this beer is 5.9% ABV. The brewer in the interview says that the OG is 1.060 and FG 1.011. First, this would make an ABV of 6.4%.

So, assuming that the OG is 1.060, I would need the FG to be about 1.015 to get an ABV of 5.9%. The problem is that, using Beersmith and Wyeast 1968, the FG estimate is 1.018, which makes the ABV 5.5%. Using a different yeast like Nottingham gets the FG lower, but then 1968 is the Fuller's yeast, so I don't know.

Now I'm sure that this recipe would make a really good beer, but I'm just wondering what could be done to solve this ? Because, according to Beersmith, all the other values for color and bitterness match almost exactly what the Fuller's brewer said in the interview.


Thanks!
Joey

Wort production is going to dictate your FG not Beersmith or even the yeast in this case

babalu87 said:

Wort production is going to dictate your FG not Beersmith or even the yeast in this case

Click to expand...

I know that Beersmith is just a tool to help develop the recipe. What steps in malt production can I do so that the FG goes lower than 1.018 ? Is it possible, using this yeast ?

According to the wyeast website, max attenuation is 71%. That would mean that with an OG of 1.060, the lowest FG possible is 1.017. Is this correct, or is it possible to go lower?

I'm not stuck on getting the OG/FG exactly like the original, I'm just curious about how everything is calculated and what can be done during the production of the wort that would affect the FG. Assuming you had two worts with the same grain bill, same OG, and using the same yeast, what else can affect the FG?

Thanks!
Joey

if you mash the right way, you can get the attenuation to increase. what is the mash temp for that recipe? i'm sure if you follow what they tell you do, it will turn out fine.

android said:

if you mash the right way, you can get the attenuation to increase. what is the mash temp for that recipe? i'm sure if you follow what they tell you do, it will turn out fine.

Click to expand...

I created this recipe from information I got from the interview with Fuller's (http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/632) and Fuller's website:

First brewed in 1971, ESB is unrivaled in flavor and balance. A robust 5.5% alcohol by volume in cask (5.9% alcohol by volume in bottles and kegs), it is brewed from Pale Ale and Crystal malts and from Target, Challenger, Northdown and Goldings hops.

Andrew Jefford, the respected UK drinks critic, sums up ESB's flavor thus: "An ample, grainy-nutty aroma and a broad, authoritative flavor, with lashings of dry marmalade-like bitters". Renowned beer connoisseur Roger Protz describes "an enormous attack of rich malt, tangy fruit and spicy hops in the mouth, with a profound Goldings peppery note in the long finish and hints of orange, lemon and gooseberry fruit".

Click to expand...

That said, in the interview, he mentions mash temperature of 147-149, for 1 hour and sparge temperature of 169. That mash temperature if pretty low (from what I've learned reading Palmer's How To Brew).

Thanks!
Joey

You can lower your mash temps for starters. If you mash @ 147-149 for 90 mins you should help get a lower FG. Also pitch a good size starter vs just pitching the vial/smack pack.

::edit::

Looks like you figured it out.

For anyone interested, here is the info that I was able to get from the interview:
OG = 1.060
FG = 1.011
AVB = 5.9%
Color = 32 EBC (= 12.5 SRM)
IBU = 35
Grain bill:
- 95 % pale ale malt
- 5 Crystal 150 (so, 70-80L)....... in my recipe, I used 120L to get the color at 12.6 SRM... using 80L, the color was 10.5, so not quite there... I don't know which one I should use
Water used = London tap water and standard burtonising technique
Mash temp = 147-149
Mash time = 1 hour
Sparge temp = 169
Boil time = 1 hour
Bittering hops = 100% target
Other hops, 2-3 min before end of boil, challenger 90% and Goldings 10%
It is dry hopped in fermenter and secondary
Ferment at 68.

In the brewery, they play with the fermentation temperature (up and down and up and down), but this isn't really practical for a homebrewer.

Attenuation numbers are a little like recommended fermentation temperatures

Up for debate

I can get that yeast to push over 75% ADF just by mashing a little longer. Drop some Crystal and get another %

Its common for British brewers to mash low and LONG

kickz28 said:

I know that Beersmith is just a tool to help develop the recipe. What steps in malt production can I do so that the FG goes lower than 1.018 ? Is it possible, using this yeast ?

According to the wyeast website, max attenuation is 71%. That would mean that with an OG of 1.060, the lowest FG possible is 1.017. Is this correct, or is it possible to go lower?

I'm not stuck on getting the OG/FG exactly like the original, I'm just curious about how everything is calculated and what can be done during the production of the wort that would affect the FG. Assuming you had two worts with the same grain bill, same OG, and using the same yeast, what else can affect the FG?

Thanks!
Joey

Click to expand...

FYI. I've just kegged my latest ESB (the style, not a Fullers clone), and took a look at my records to get the OG and FG from some recent brews.
All brews were made using 95% Maris Otter +- 1 - 2%, 5% Muntons Crystal 55, and most had a very small amount of dark malts in order to darken the color a bit. None of them contained any sugar. They were all fermented at 68F using WLP002 with a 1 liter starter and aeration with pure O2. They were all mashed at 150F - 151F with a mash thickness of 1 US qt/lb grain
The results were:

1. OG 1.055, FG 1.012, Apparent Attenuation 78%
2. OG 1.047, FG 1.010, Apparent Attenuation 78%
3. OG 1.055, FG 1.015, Apparent Attenuation 73%
4. OG 1.048, FG 1.012, Apparent Attenuation 75%
5. OG 1.055, FG 1.011, Apparent Attenuation 80%

Numbers 1 and 2 were made with fresh yeast.
Numbers 3 and 4 were made with third generation harvested yeast.
Number 5 was made with 1st generation harvested yeast.

This doesn't exactly agree with the published attenuation figures from White Labs or Wyeast, but it is what I am getting.

-a.

kickz28 said:

So, assuming that the OG is 1.060, I would need the FG to be about 1.015 to get an ABV of 5.9%. The problem is that, using Beersmith and Wyeast 1968, the FG estimate is 1.018, which makes the ABV 5.5%. Using a different yeast like Nottingham gets the FG lower, but then 1968 is the Fuller's yeast, so I don't know.

Click to expand...

That's right where you want it. Cask strength is 5.5%, bottles is 5.9%. I'm guessing the difference is because of priming sugar. Is this beer bottle conditioned? I can't remember for the life of me.

Anyway, is this the first time you've made the clone? If so, just go through with everything as planned, using the right yeast, and see how it goes. Tweak the recipe on the subsequent brews as needed. You can hit all the numbers dead on and such and still not have something that tastes just like Fuller's. But if you play with things and let taste be your guide, you might get pretty close after a few tries.

The cask version is a real ale (i.e. naturally carbonated). The bottled version isn't, so all other things being equal, that should give the cask version a slightly higher ABV. Obviously, all other things are not equal.

-a.

Hmmm, interesting thread. i just recultured Fullers yeast from the bottle and will put this recipe in the queue.