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blackdragon82

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Ok this really doesn't relate to brewing, well I guess it could if you think I can't brew unless I get a paycheck. I just graduated last Friday from Penn State with a degree in software engineering with a 3.3 GPA. I plan on going for my masters as soon as I get a full time job. No reason to add more debt without an income.

My problem is I received an offer for 41k a year, benefits, and 2 weeks vaca. I'm new to the market so I don't know if this is standard but it seems low from what I have read online. The company is fairly new, but a software company where I would gain A LOT of experience. I tried to talk some more out of them but they would not budge. They also want an answer by today after they made the offer only yesterday. They said they want me to start the first week of Jan so that is the reason for the rush. I just want to make sure I am not being taken advantage of because I am new.

What do you guys think?
(Once again I know its not about brewing, but I've come to trust people on this forum and respect the knowledge they have. That is the reason for putting it on here)
 
41k isn't terrible to start but that really depends on your area and cost of living I guess. Even if it is low for the profession I would take it personally. The job market is looking pretty bleak and you are coming right out of school. If it has decent benefits package and they are willing to reevaluate you in a reasonable amount of time (3-6 months) it sounds like a good deal. Worse case you work for them for a year or two and take that "LOT of experience" with you to another company.
 
In this economy I would take it. Turn it down and you might be looking for another 8 months. Hard to say. You can always take it and if it's not your thing then in 6-12 months start looking for something else.

Not sure what the going entry level rate is these days. But if you are good, get your foot in the door and then if you perform you will get promoted / raises.
 
Thanks guys! I just want to make sure that I am not getting some huge low end or something. The company is fairly new about 1 year old. With this job I would be working with a handful of senior levels and actually diving into code and working on new stuff. Languages are Asp.net, c#, SQL, and some others. They mentioned they have something in place to pay for my masters as well ( I told them when I was being interviewed I wanted to go for it).
 
As mentioned, the pay could be extremely low, high, or just right depending on the cost of living where you are. Where I am, that's roughly where I started two years ago, and it has afforded me the ability to live beyond comfortably. Its not the salary I was hoping for when I started college, however I'm also not doing what I thought I'd be doing when I started college either. Instead of working in a software engineering/development field, I get to tell all of the software engineer/developers that their code is broken (QA Analyst).

You might want to get clarification as to what they mean about "something in place to pay for [your] masters". It might just be a hook to get you landed, or it could be something pretty amazing. Knowing what my girlfriend is paying for grad school, if her employer was paying that, it'd be dang near half that salary (again, depends on school, location, etc.).

Also as mentioned, you can always take the job, and if you find something better move on. "Something better" isn't always easy to quantify though - so keep that in mind.
 
As long as you don't have to move far away for the position, then there is not much harm in taking it. You can always use it to resume-build and switch employment if a better oppurtunity comes up.

I have friends that are in software and are having a hard time finding work. I am in a different sort of engineering, but I think everywhere is hurting to some degree.
 
Ok.. so I happen to have a LOT more experience with this than with brewing... I happen to be a software development manager and I can say with certainty that you should take it. It is a low number but it is a start. In a few years you will have gained the right experience to add significantly to that number if you make sure your skill set grows and matches what the market is looking for and are willing to go looking. Your value in the market will jump a lot after 5 years experience.

If they are willing to pay for your Masters degree this makes up for a lot of salary... and is a good indication that they will take care of the $'s over time.
 
I would ask more about them paying for your masters. This isnt uncommon for businesses to do, but there is often a catch. If they are paying for your masters they expect you to stick around for a certain amount of time, otherwise you have to pay them back. Make sure you check the fine print with them.
 
If the experience you can gain is really good, it's a no-brainer. Take the job.

I started out from college with an EET Degree making like 30k/year (14 years ago). That was low for the industry standard. But I learned every aspect of controls engineering while there - quotes, design, drawings, programming, panel build, instrumentation, startup, documentation and anything else I forgot to mention. Most of my friends were working in jobs where they only were learning a few of these things - or if in a different field they were only learning parts of their process.

I worked there for 4 years, built up a good resume, found a job paying a LOT more money and told the old company goodbye.

Just be smart with your money. I see a lot of guys newly out of school buying new cars and lots of expensive toys. Get yourself a few things, but save that money and buy the fancy things later when you get the big paycheck.

And let us know how things go.....
 
Once again thanks for all the info everyone. I just felt like 41k was the low end of the stick. I asked about paying for a masters and the guy said that he had to speak with the financial manager. He said he knows they have something but not sure and the financial manager was already out of the office. Should hear about that today
 
Just be smart with your money. I see a lot of guys newly out of school buying new cars and lots of expensive toys. Get yourself a few things, but save that money and buy the fancy things later when you get the big paycheck.

Yeah I had a lot of friends I graduated with buy new cars right before graduation nothing huge and fancy but new none the less. I have had a new car will never do that again. Such a waste when depreciation roles in. I am a pretty frugal guy who budgets well (or at least I think so). As long as it doesn't affect my brewing fund I'm good :mug: I've always been happy with simple things.
 
I was curious about the masters degree. Does that help you in the software field? I know in my field it gets you nothing unless you want to teach.
I've found an MBA to be one of the best things, if you want to get into management at some point. Again, just throwing things out - do what you want with it ;)
 
I do want to teach actually as an adjunct for a little while. My local PSU campus told me they would gladly take me as a teacher once I finish. With work, from what I see with a masters it puts me in the next payroll bracket up. About 10k more a year.
 
I have a comp sci degree and started at 40K a few years ago, worked there for a couple years got some experience and as the company was going downhill I got a better paying job elsewhere. Just getting in to the market and getting some experience will be a huge benefit for your next job. Definitely take it.
 
It may not be the job or salary you're looking for, but you have to keep in mind how many people there are out there that would love to be making even 40K again to help with some of the bills and debt they've accrued being out of work. I would take it, then continue to keep an eye out. I am one who likes to have a paycheck coming in. Hell, when I graduated from college, I went right back to my old McDonalds job while looking for the field job. Having one job doesn't mean you're locked into it the minute a better one presents itself. Plus, those first jobs are hard to get. Nobody wants to hire someone with no experience, especially when they can get experience these days for the same price.
I say take it.
 
I'm in a completely different field, but I graduated in 2008 and started around the same area. If cost of living isn't very high, then its definitely a decent starting wage. I'd absolutely see what they will do to pay for your Masters / MBA also.
 
In the absences of better offers, I think you should take the offer you have. If you have multiple offers, my advice is to take the one that offers you the most marketable job skills even if it pays less. The company is only a year old so keep your resume up to date. They may go under.
 
Just be smart with your money. I see a lot of guys newly out of school buying new cars and lots of expensive toys. Get yourself a few things, but save that money and buy the fancy things later when you get the big paycheck.

I have a friend who graduated with $100k in debit and credit cards. Within 6 months of his new job he bought two new cars and a new house with no money down on it. :drunk:

I have a BS in Physics and I started looking for work the second I graduated two years ago. I couldn't find anything. I had a few bites from Entergy and few other places, but most positions eventually got cancelled. I ended up going to graduate school and doing research at one of the labs at my university. I got lucky and the lab hired me on as full-time as researcher, but I would have taken anything when I first started looking. With unemployment as high as it is, I would be happy with anything I could get. This is also a good opportunity to get some good work experience and pump up the resume. You never know where this job will lead you. I absolutely love my job, and I wasn't expecting to land where I did.

:mug:
 
Since you're in PA, I'll offer what I can.

41k in any area of PA outside of 2-3 decent cities (Philly/Pitt/H-burg) is probably pretty good. Non-city living is cheap, and it's tough to find decent tech jobs there. Having no experience (but a degree) -- 41k is not that bad for the area.

I've seen jobs (before I moved to a better area) in PA that are so-called "entry level" for under $10/hr in the tech field (hell desk and the like). The fact that you're in software makes things a lot better for you and why you're even getting the $41k.

If this is philly -- you may be getting burned a little, but weigh it out with benefits and travel to the job. If it's nice and close and an easy drive, then it's probably well worth it. If your'e driving an hour to the other side of Philly spending $ on gas and time sitting on the Surekill Expressway...maybe it's not worth it, but only you can make that decision.
 
To be honest, I would be skeptical to take it without some negotiating. Even in this market that's on the low end for an engineering job in the Northeast. A startup is not necessarily very stable either. Try to negotiate while playing the field, and don't just take the first offer you get. Coming out of school companies will give you all the time you need to make the best decision for you.

Hold that, just read your response again. I really don't like the major rush they are putting on you. That combined with the low salary would make me very uncomfortable thinking they are trying to prey on the vulnerable. Its up to you though to me, forcing a decision within a week of an offer and graduation is kind of sketchy. Talk to all your friends and be open with salaries and benefits on all their offers. Talk to the career center at your school and do some research on salary ranges.

Of course other factors come into play, mainly your view on relocating. If its helping you stay in a geographical area where you want to be then it could be worth it. Finding a job in a specific geographical area and your expertise is near impossible these days. Take it from an unemployed engineer herself.

Smart to wait to get a Master's until the company pays. One thing to look at is that they will then have a requirement to stay anywhere between 2-5 years after completion or else you will have to pay it back.
 
Don't settle that low. Demand at least 45 or 50. I was in the EXACT same situation as you a year or two ago, and got screwed over PRETTY badly.

I wouldn't take that job unless:

1. you are really desperate
2. you think you can find another company to pay you more in a year from now (good luck)
3. you make an agreement with the company that they will give you a BIG raise after 90 days or a year.

you have a good degree and a good GPA. $40,000 isn't enough money to live on your own or start a family.
 
Its in Blue Bell just north of Philly but I live in West Chester. So its about 40 min drive straight down 202. I think the last time I went on 76 was about a year ago. I have never seen traffic like that damn highway. I wouldn't even consider if I had to sit on that. One friend of mine thought he could brave it now he gets off work at 5pm and home by 8. Any GPS says its a 30 min drive for him
 
check http://www.salary.com/ and put in your information (the free one is fine for what you are looking for). It will give you the ranges for the area and your experience. A lot of companies will pay for school, so that isn't a really big perk, but is nice if you are planning on doing it.
 
JeepDiver I actually did that this morning it had me at 20%. See the thing I'm concerned about is that I am seeing stuff all over in different ranges so I really don't know what good and bad.
 
Is the job an actual engineering position? I don't know what the national avg is for entry level engineers anymore. This certainly isn't the same economy I was hired into.

I started my engineering job before the economy took a nose dive, and was disappointed with a starting salary a lot higher than that. What a clueless idiot I was. I took the job of course, but little did I know, before I knew it my friends couldn't even find/keep a job. That really put things in perspective for me. I look back at that starting offer and think I'd have taken it for $15k less.

Take it; you're getting your foot in the door in a tough economy, and you & your career will be more valuable in a few years because you got good experience.

Oh, get that masters while you're young. Finish that degree before you start reproducing.

TB
 
Is it your only offer? If so, then you have an easy decision - take it. It's $41k more than you make now in your chosen profession. Next week or next month if you get a better offer, then you can take that one. That's generally not considered professional, but neither is 24hrs to accept an offer. Also, as others have mentioned, startups can go under overnight.

In my experience, startups often pay low...the upside being options/shares, normally after a year of work. You also get titles like "VP" or "xEO" if you have 2-3 direct reports, even though it doesn't fool many people.
 
Also, do some hard thinking into what budget you can afford. You always need a bottom number. I know there are salaries that I just couldn't take and be able to sustain my bills (primarily student loans). I know most people are saying take any job you can get. But in engineering and specialties the first job you take sets the precedent for your career. Both in reputation and salary. Even though the first job may just be a stepping stone for experience future employers will judge you not just on your experience but also the reputation of the company (they figure the better the company the better qualified the person).

Also, nearly all job applications require the disclosure of your previous salary (stupid * required fields on applications) and I guarantee that hiring managers are only allowed to budge their offers within a certain percentage of your last salary. So if you start lowballed and don't get very high raises (which could be typical in a startup) you have to present a very compelling argument to your next employer to pull yourself out of the low salary ditch. It also can work the other way, I'm 100% positive that I've had at least a few hiring managers put my resume on the bottom of the pile because my previous salary was too high and out of their range.
 
check http://www.salary.com/ and put in your information (the free one is fine for what you are looking for). It will give you the ranges for the area and your experience. A lot of companies will pay for school, so that isn't a really big perk, but is nice if you are planning on doing it.

A lot of these services are crap, in my opinion. Some of them allow anyone to go in and punch in their salary without any corroboration whatsoever. Others don't take into account experience (so they throw those with 1 year experience into the same bucket for averaging with those who have 15 years experience). For example, my job TITLE shows that I should be pulling in $10k-$45k more than I am, yet for this area, just having graduated 2 years ago (almost exactly actually) what I'm making is actually on the high end for the area.

They can be a guide, but I wouldn't walk in demanding to match what that shows.
 
Thanks again. I think if they cover my masters I will take it. Yes, my title will be "Software Engineer". I talked to a cousin of mine who started as a QA Analyst and he said he started at 39k a while back, 2006 I think. This position would be for experience only. Just online I keep seeing people saying starting should be around 50k. I know I can easily get by with 40k right now. I am actually 28, I had to work my way through school, lot of money trouble with the family (mom & sisters) and I had to help support. Last year when both the sisters were done and left home to be on their own is when I started full time college so I could finish.
 
I have 2 other interviews processes I am going through as an application developer. One is saying roughly 47k a year, but the position is asking for someone with 2-5 years experience. Right now I have only passed a test they gave me. Another one hasn't mentioned money yet but its closer to home. Both of these were set up by recruiters
 
I wouldn't look into the salary to much, i would say that's in range especially with benefits (if they are good) and the talk of helping towards master, those things go along way. I was in your shoes 8 years ago took even lower just to get my foot in the door and some real world experience after searching for almost a year after school. I was an above average developer out of school with lots of self taught experience and a 3.2 gpa coming out of school. I found out quickly that experience is king in this industry. My salary went up about 35-50% every other year for the next 6 years as I gained experience and made moves that seemed fit.
 
A lot of these services are crap, in my opinion. Some of them allow anyone to go in and punch in their salary without any corroboration whatsoever. Others don't take into account experience (so they throw those with 1 year experience into the same bucket for averaging with those who have 15 years experience). For example, my job TITLE shows that I should be pulling in $10k-$45k more than I am, yet for this area, just having graduated 2 years ago (almost exactly actually) what I'm making is actually on the high end for the area.

They can be a guide, but I wouldn't walk in demanding to match what that shows.

Salary.com has proven to be fairly correct to me in larger cities, not sure about smaller markets. They actually get their info from HR people, not people who put in their own saleries (i.e. glassdoor.com)

That being said, while you don't want to become known as a job hopper, no one is going to look down on you if you take this job, and in 3-4 months jump to a better gig, as long as you stay with that one a while.

A job offer in the inbox, is much better than 1000 job postings online.
 
I am still interning at Siemens medical right now. So I have big company experience. I also just spoke with some friends I have made here in other teams and they said
1) I should not settle so low with my GPA and work exp.
2) They really didn't like how the company was trying to force an answer out of me the moment they made it. I had to fight and tell them I would call today.

I definitely agreed with the forcing me to make a decision so quickly. One friend brought up a good point that they are probably trying to be quick so that they can offer less. If they get me right after I graduate and rush it I don't know what the average is so I will accept thinking its the norm. But like I said I have 2 other interviews one is definitely offering close to 50k and the other sounds like it would be around the same.

I am going to call them back and say I need more time to think about this, especially with the other offers on the table
 
Thanks again. I think if they cover my masters I will take it. Yes, my title will be "Software Engineer".

Be careful with this. Most companies make you sign something that says if you leave in X amount of time after them paying for your school, you have to pay it all back. 12 mos is standard, though I've seen 6-24mos.

I'd suggest making sure you like the job, before commiting to a year or more time with them, unless you are willing to pay the money back.
 
Also, personally for me after working at a few, a startup is at least a 15% premium over other jobs. You have the stress of worring if they are going to make payroll next month, as well as usually are expected to put in a lot more than 40-45 hours, and don't usually get OverTime.
 
Thanks again. I think if they cover my masters I will take it. Yes, my title will be "Software Engineer". I talked to a cousin of mine who started as a QA Analyst and he said he started at 39k a while back, 2006 I think. This position would be for experience only. Just online I keep seeing people saying starting should be around 50k. I know I can easily get by with 40k right now. I am actually 28, I had to work my way through school, lot of money trouble with the family (mom & sisters) and I had to help support. Last year when both the sisters were done and left home to be on their own is when I started full time college so I could finish.

Man, sign of the times, I guess, but I took the lowest offer I had out of UIUC in 1999 (yes I was stupid, but in retrospect, it was probably the right decision as a small company offers a lot of opportunities for breadth of knowledge and experience) in tech and it was 48+ big benefits and stock options...

As for your situation, if they cover education expenses, that makes it pretty damn attractive. JMO, but very few companies these days cover more than some nominal %-age of continuing education costs. Also beware of the payback rules. Some companies hold you accountable for a pro-rated portion of education costs if you leave the company some time T after leaving the company. T is usually 3-5 years if they have such a policy.

Software is a real tough industry these days. So much shipped off to India, China, and Eastern Europe, everyone in US is looking for experienced "high value" people these days.

And since you are in the right "neck of the woods", you might want to see about finding DoD type of jobs as there is definitely some inherent security there that protects you against outsourcing. Again, JMO.
 
Also, personally for me after working at a few, a startup is at least a 15% premium over other jobs. You have the stress of worring if they are going to make payroll next month, as well as usually are expected to put in a lot more than 40-45 hours, and don't usually get OverTime.

The whole point of start-ups is high risk (or stress/hours/lower pay) for potential reward.


If considering a startup, I would ask a lot of questions about business plan, cash assets on hand (how many months of operating expenses do they have in reserve or have funding for?), what is the business plan (what is the goal in the industry they are competing in), and what is the end game for the investors/owners (take over the world vs build a nice niche or product and sell the company to make profit)...

You want to avoid the small companies who think they are going to take over the industry/world unless you really believe in the product and business plan as being revolutionary. Lots of stories in my circle as well as personal experience with guys who ran small companies thinking they were going to take down the huge power players. Those guys are egomaniacs and power addicts... stay away from that if you can. You want the business guy/investor mindset that will make you a return on your "start-up" investment of your time and opportunity cost.
 
lol, i graduated 2 years ago from RIT In Mechanical Engineering (still looking for a job) but i went back for my masters which im finishing up this school year. when it comes down to it, i would figure out how much you owe, then from there see if you can live off 41 minus taxes ext, then see how much money you have left, to support for food, gas ext. this is the reason i didnt take a job for 45, with my loans, i would be living at home for the rest of my life, making min payments, and eating soup every day.
 
It doesn't matter whether or not the pay is good for similar jobs in the industry. Is it good for you? Can you make ends meet at $41K per year? Do you expect a better offer in the near future? Can you live on unemployment benefits until a better offer comes around? Do the math.

VERY roughly, you'll have $30K net after taxes. That's $2,500 / month. Now, subtract your bills. Include rent/mortgage, utilities, insurance, all loans (auto/student/etc). Estimate fuel and groceries. The remainder is what you have to save or spend.

VERY brief/broad brush example:

$1000 rent
$200 utilities (electric, water, sewer, trash)
$200 cell phone/internet/cable
$200 car loan
$100 student loan
$100 car insurance
$150 groceries
$100 gas

$2050 total expenses (note the lack of health insurance - check the company's benefits)

You have $450 left. If you save 10%, you're left with $200/month for spending cash. That means you can take a date to dinner twice and have enough leftover for a few nights of cheap beer and pizza. If you're paying off a credit card, the payment could easily eat up the remainder of your cash.
 

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