240v Wiring Help?

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Mojzis

Mojzis

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Hi everyone. I would like to ask the experts some questions. I'm not very knowledgeable of wiring besides some basic lighting and outlets.

I purchased a DIY controller for my 240v 5500 camco element. It consists of a potentiometer, SS relay, aluminum heat sink and box. I bought 15ft of water resistant 10/3 wire (same as listed on the electric brewery). I want to make a simple controller to keep the boil regulated.

I found a diagram online and wired it up. I'll attach pictures in another post. I rent so I don't have the ability to install a 240v outlet. Instead I'm hoping to use the dryer outlet which is 240. I picked up a plug to fit the dryer outlet but I ran into an issue. The wire I bought has a white, black and green which I believe are two hots and a ground. The dryer outlet has a red, black and white. Red and black are hot and white is neutral?

Am I out of luck? Or can I still use this outlet?

Thanks in advance.
 
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P.s- did I wire this up right?
 
Use a multimeter to properly determine which wire is which. In 220v only there is no neutral. Most likely black and red are the 2 legs of 110v and the white is ground. Confirm this by looking at the breaker panel and using a multimeter.
 
if im looking at that rite you need to double check it. for 220 you need both legs there is no neutral. its just a 3 wire system to hots and a ground if your ssr is like any of the other ones ive seen you have your neutral hooked up to the input to acually switch the ssr it wont hurt anything it just wont work check out theelectricbrewery.com and do some really good reading it will be extremely helpfull and be carefull 220 doesnt like to let go of you if u get caught up in it. good luck and be safe.
 
If it is an older dryer outlet it is most likely wired with H-H-N, as you described, and the N is bonded to the dryer chassis. This is no longer allowed, but existing work is grandfathered in.

You should definitely ground your brewery panel and have a GFCI, and the easiest way to do it is with a GFCI spa panel bringing in H-H-N and bringing out H-H-N-G. There have been many heated discussions around this approach, but it certainly works and is far better than no GFCI at all. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/3-wire-240v-spa-panel-4-wire-out-again-372667/
 
Thanks everyone. I'll look into checking the outlet to see which is which as far as hots/ground. As far as grounding the panel, I don't have a panel. It's just a small plastic box with the SSR in it. The way I have it wired up is that the aluminum sink and kettle will be grounded. I don't have a gfci available and won't be able to install one just yet. I was hoping to make use of the dryer/stove outlets for a little while as I don't have a permanent or eve semi permanent residence. When permanent residence is acquired i'll install the better outlet, plug, etc.
 
Mojzis said:
Thanks everyone. I'll look into checking the outlet to see which is which as far as hots/ground. As far as grounding the panel, I don't have a panel. It's just a small plastic box with the SSR in it. The way I have it wired up is that the aluminum sink and kettle will be grounded. I don't have a gfci available and won't be able to install one just yet. I was hoping to make use of the dryer/stove outlets for a little while as I don't have a permanent or eve semi permanent residence. When permanent residence is acquired i'll install the better outlet, plug, etc.
Click to expand...

I strongly urge you to incorporate a GFCI as a critical safety feature. It is likely that a GFCI spa panel will not only protect your life, but will also solve your neutral vs. ground problems.
 
Lopsy said:
GFCI is not an option.


Install it or don't brew electric.
Click to expand...

It was already stated that I should use a spa panel with GFCI incorporated. I am seeking assistance on how to do this.

If you have nothing new, helpful or constructive to add please refrain from commenting. Thanks.
 
jeffmeh said:
If it is an older dryer outlet it is most likely wired with H-H-N, as you described, and the N is bonded to the dryer chassis. This is no longer allowed, but existing work is grandfathered in.

You should definitely ground your brewery panel and have a GFCI, and the easiest way to do it is with a GFCI spa panel bringing in H-H-N and bringing out H-H-N-G. There have been many heated discussions around this approach, but it certainly works and is far better than no GFCI at all. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/3-wire-240v-spa-panel-4-wire-out-again-372667/
Click to expand...

jeffmeh said:
I strongly urge you to incorporate a GFCI as a critical safety feature. It is likely that a GFCI spa panel will not only protect your life, but will also solve your neutral vs. ground problems.
Click to expand...

Like this?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/spa-panel-wiring-dummies-266751/
 
I'm going somewhere else with my question, as the H-H-N-G / GFCI thing has been hashed (and I fully agree with others - put a GFCI spa panel in your setup, you can even just put it in-line with your plug - 3 wires to your dryer outlet, 4 wires to your box, life is good).

How does that SSR work? The SSRs I have seen require a +dc signal to one post and a -dc signal to another post. There is no power to either post, as you just have a potentiometer installed in line. The potentiometer will regulate / alter voltage, but there has to be some sort of voltage supply for that to actually work. What's providing the dc voltage to signal the SSR? My guess is that you're missing a component in your design. OOOoorrrr.... this is a type of SSR I've never seen before that takes 1 leg of 240vAC and some how converts it to a dc signal from one post to the other?

Is the wiring diagram you posted yours, or did it come with a kit / someone else's proven design?

-Kevin
 
jeffmeh said:
Yes, with the caveats in the first link I posted.
Click to expand...

Thanks.

SteveWPG said:
Maybe I am crazy but how does that pot control the relay?
Click to expand...

BadNewsBrewery said:
I'm going somewhere else with my question, as the H-H-N-G / GFCI thing has been hashed (and I fully agree with others - put a GFCI spa panel in your setup, you can even just put it in-line with your plug - 3 wires to your dryer outlet, 4 wires to your box, life is good).

How does that SSR work? The SSRs I have seen require a +dc signal to one post and a -dc signal to another post. There is no power to either post, as you just have a potentiometer installed in line. The potentiometer will regulate / alter voltage, but there has to be some sort of voltage supply for that to actually work. What's providing the dc voltage to signal the SSR? My guess is that you're missing a component in your design. OOOoorrrr.... this is a type of SSR I've never seen before that takes 1 leg of 240vAC and some how converts it to a dc signal from one post to the other?

Is the wiring diagram you posted yours, or did it come with a kit / someone else's proven design?

-Kevin
Click to expand...

I have no idea. Not my design and I am in no way shape or form an electrician. I bought the controller from stilldragon and got that diagram from their small forum.

I wasn't sure about it either so I posted it here so that the experts can tell me if its correct or not (along with my several other questions).
 
One further question. If I wire up the spa panel, could I just mount my heat sink, ssr, etc in the spa panel to save space and make life easier? Or would I need to keep them separate?
 
The idea of the heat sink is to wick away heat from the solid state device so u really want it on the outside of a box or panel! Heat is a solid state devices worst enemy!
 
Mojzis said:
One further question. If I wire up the spa panel, could I just mount my heat sink, ssr, etc in the spa panel to save space and make life easier? Or would I need to keep them separate?
Click to expand...

I would keep them separate. Also, consider running 10/3 plus ground (4-wires) both into and out of the spa panel, even if you don't use the ground wire on the input. That way, if you ever move to a place where you really do have a 4-wire, 30a outlet, you already have everything you need to run 4 in and 4 out. Think of the cables and spa panel as a 30a GFCI extension cord.

This assumes that you have a 30a breaker upstream of the spa panel. If you want to run 50a, you would need to run 6/3 plus ground.
 
I'm sure the heat sink would work fine for now, or why would they sell it like that? If it brakes from heat I'd likely complain. I'd like to make a larger panel in the future and maybe incorporate some fans inside... if I feel like getting fancy.

Thanks Jeff. I like that idea of running 4 and using what I need at the time. I have put off this project as I don't have the funds to build the spa panel, and I'd rather not die doing it the original way I wanted to. Hopefully I'll get a job soon (just got my BA) and then maybe I can wire up the correct panel/outlet.

Thanks for everyone's advice.
 
Mojzis said:
One further question. If I wire up the spa panel, could I just mount my heat sink, ssr, etc in the spa panel to save space and make life easier? Or would I need to keep them separate?
Click to expand...

That's what I did:
https://picasaweb.google.com/107792868001472962528/Brewery#5882386535086270802

Seems to work well so far, though that's with only one batch through it. Well, the heat sink is on the outside of the spa panel, but all of the components are in, or attached to, that panel.
 
Couldn't resist picking up a spa panel. I'm going to use the three wire in, four out route. I'm assuming I can run a 120v gfci receptacle in my spa panel along with a 240v. Do I just wire the 240v outlet with HHG and the receptacle with HNG? Which hot shouldn't matter right? And my neutral on the 120 receptacle is bonded to my breaker?
 
All good? I didn't add the 120 receptacle so I didn't add the neutral to the breaker as shown in the diagram. Doing 3 wire in, 3 wire out for now. Will that work?



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Edit: all good. Didn't die.
 
Apparently the hash is cold.

Adding a GFCI is good, no doubt, but deriving the 4th wire for an alleged equipment ground in such a manner is just a waste of time and material since it adds nothing to the point of why it is Code in modern wiring.

The operation of the GFCI doesn't depend in the least on that 4th wire. True, it is no more dangerous than using just the Neutral for grounding (because that's what you're doing with it anyway) but neither is it one bit more safe.

In some regards I suppose it is potentially more dangerous since having a grounding receptacle implies a dedicated equipment grounding wire is present when no such thing exists.
 
whoaru99 said:
Apparently the hash is cold.

Adding a GFCI is good, no doubt, but deriving the 4th wire for an alleged equipment ground in such a manner is just a waste of time and material since it adds nothing to the point of why it is Code in modern wiring.

The operation of the GFCI doesn't depend in the least on that 4th wire. True, it is no more dangerous than using just the Neutral for grounding (because that's what you're doing with it anyway) but neither is it one bit more safe.

In some regards I suppose it is potentially more dangerous since having a grounding receptacle implies a dedicated equipment grounding wire is present when no such thing exists.
Click to expand...

So what would you suggest?
 
Sils was right about the heatsink. In my test run the controlling box with the sink got very hot. However I don't think the heat sink I was sold is meant for external mounting. Is there anyway I can use a fan? The only issues I see with that is the fan would exhaust from the side of the box...and they are dc which means I would need to mount a converter or a 12v dc supply and outlet. Which means more wires. Or maybe I can find A cheap heat sink.
 
Well...I presume people are going with this approach in attempt to add the fourth wire/dedicated equipment grounding on the premise of improving safety/reducing risk. So, if that's the case (and why else would it be?) I suggest the necessary wiring to actually implement dedicated equipment grounding.
 
But in a case where you can't modify the houses wiring because you rent temporarily, going that way couldn't happen. Isn't using a gfi in the spa panel safer than simply hooking the element up to the dryer outlet with no ground or gfi?
 
The GFI and the grounding conductor are two completely different things and are not at all dependent on each other.

The GFI absolutely is beneficial to add. I have no bone of contention there at all.

The bone of contention is the fake equipment grounding wire. Extending the neutral to your setup through a four wire connection does absolutely nothing more for safety grounding than if you just wired the neutral itself to your setup through a three wire connection.

As I mentioned before, I don't think it's necessarily more dangerous to do what the diagram shows, however it just adds another likely Code violation (using a receptacle with an equipment grounding contact that's not connected per Code) and provides a false sense of greater safety.
 

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