Help formulating an all Brett C. session beer

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scone

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The Horse of a Different Color transcript plus the Minstrel Brett C post has inspired me to whip up an all Brett C. recipe of my own. The idea of a "clean", "spicy" and fast-fermenting Brett beer really appeals to me. I have no experience creating recipes so I'm really jumping in the deep end here. I just placed an order for While Labs WLP645 (the Brettanomyces Claussenii) and I have a little while to assemble ingredients before it arrives.

I want to create something pretty light, and easy to drink, with not too much complexity going on. I'm thinking something like a Rye Pale Ale. (I've been drinking a lot of the Real Ale Full Moon Rye Pale Ale, and it just begs for a bit of funk in my opinion). Here's what Real Ale has to say about it:

"Tawny red and full of malt and hops, Full Moon's unique flavor truly satisfies. The smooth sweetness of malted rye and barley is complemented by generous helpings of Willamette and Cascade hops, resulting in an assertive American amber ale.
ABV: 5.7%, IBU: 42, OG(plato): 14 "​

So that gives me a good start. I will be doing a mini-mash and I have the capacity to mash about 6 lbs. of grain if I'm pushing it. Let me try to take this one ingredient at a time.

Grain bill
8 oz. honey malt (not sure about this, but it sounds nice)
8 oz. acid malt (is this too much?)
1 lb. red malted wheat
2 lb. malted rye
2 lb. 6-row pale (does this have enough diastatic power to convert all that?)
? LME to make up the gravity difference

Hops
I have no idea here, I was thinking Willamette for bittering and Cascade for 5 min. and flame out but I'm not sure about quantities. I'm trying not to overpower the funk with hopiness or bitterness, so maybe I should cut back on the IBU's since the Brett will take the beer drier then Sacc. would (thus leaving less residual sugar to balance it out)?

Yeast
100% WLP645, Brett C. I am thinking 1 gallon starter using LME, 5 days in advance, and pitch the whole thing. I don't have a stir plate. I'm thinking that I'm not going to aerate the starter OR the beer since I've read that Brett C. does pretty well with no oxygen.

I'd love some feedback about this. I thought about posting this in the Recipes section, but I feel like the 100% Brett C. beer probably needs some special consideration. There's not a single thing about the recipe that I'm not willing to change so let me know your concerns! :p
 
i'm also interested in doing something along the lines of Victory's Wild Devil and had a bunch of the same questions as you have, although i'm looking for a balance between the hopiness and funk... i'd be interested in what other people say, and i'll be watching this thread.
 
I want to you do it with 100% Brett C, because I'm curious to see someone else get the same sourness that SteveG got. I was worried I wouldn't get the same sourness, so I pitched a nice sized lactobacillus starter at the same time as the Brett C, and didn't use any hops so the lacto would be happy. It turned out pretty sour in less than a couple of weeks and now after a few months it is very sour, with the classic pineapple aroma of Brett C. It tastes kind of like a dry pineapple juice. It's great. I might add some hop tea to it, if I ever get around to bottling it.
 
i'm also interested in doing something along the lines of Victory's Wild Devil and had a bunch of the same questions as you have, although i'm looking for a balance between the hopiness and funk... i'd be interested in what other people say, and i'll be watching this thread.

check out this thread, saq has graciously answered a bunch of my questions about doing an all brett L. IPA, similar to wild devil.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/muse-my-second-all-brett-beer-135753/index2.html
 
I have done two all brett C. beers in the past few months(Late hop Amarillo bitter, and a triple). The first I stepped up a starter from 1L to 2L. The Brett. vials from white labs contain a lot less yeast because they are intended to be used for secondary fermentation. I believe there are ~10 billion cells per-vial, but that just off the top of my head right now. You will probably need 200-300 billion yeast for your grain bill.

I found that brett.c for the most part acted just like sacch and did 95% of the fermentation in the first 4-5days. I let it go a few more weeks and got the FG down to 1.004.

don't be afraid of the smell when it is fermenting, it really has a vomit and raw sewage smell at first, but it goes away. after the yeast starts to get stressed, it starts to produce a pineapple/tropical fruit aroma. The flavor is not terribly unique, I think my next brett beer will use Brett.C for primary fermentation, then age it with Brett L to get some good funk.

I'm thinking a Farmhouse saison like Le merle from north coast brewing.

Good luck,

The babble belt is also a good resorce for working with Brett.
 
I want to you do it with 100% Brett C, because I'm curious to see someone else get the same sourness that SteveG got.

I got decent sourness in my All-Brett C. (No other bugs in mine.) It also ended up on the high end with a FG of 1.016, but the residual sugars worked out really well in balancing out the acidity. It's among the best tasting beers I've brewed to date. The only annoying thing is it has zero head retention.


Scone: Brett C, as a primary yeast, is the slowest of all the commerial strains in getting started. When the starter is pitched into your wort, don't be surprised or worried if there's a lag time of several days before you see any activity.
 
Jaymo, did you get a lot of pineapple or was it subtle, or non-existent? There's been a few discussions about the pineapple flavor of Brett C. (which I'd just as soon avoid) on babble belt but I haven't found any definitive answers on which conditions create those flavors.
 
Jaymo, did you get a lot of pineapple or was it subtle, or non-existent? There's been a few discussions about the pineapple flavor of Brett C. (which I'd just as soon avoid) on babble belt but I haven't found any definitive answers on which conditions create those flavors.

I found that there was no pineapple flavor, but the pineapple/passion fruit aroma came up after several weeks of aging. It appeared to me that these aromas develop during times of low nutrients or stress. I also found that they fall off a few months after they develop.
 
Ah thanks. That would make sense to me, and is consistent with yeast throwing more flavors when stressed as opposed to less. Reading the Horse of a Different Color though, I'm thinking I might try no aeration. I can't see how this would NOT stress the yeast, but the one (Brett C. only) recipe where aeration was discussed, the pineapple was subdued, and the brewer didn't aerate.

Anyone have experience with what aeration does to Brett C.?
 
I aerated my all-Brett C and it ended up quite sour, but I wouldn't call the flavors pineapple really. I've also read the discussions on pineapple on the BBB forum and I don't think we've really figured out exactly what conditions lead to it on a consistent basis. Mine had a fruitiness to it, but I think that is percieved because it finished pretty high (FG 1.016.) The sweetness/body comes off very balanced with the high acidity though. As it has aged over the course of the last 4 months it has developed more of a classic (though far from overpowering and still very balanced) brettiness in additional to the clean sourness it had before.

From what I've heard/read from multiple sources, though, it sounds like the WLP Brett C is quite possibly a mixed strain.

Has everyone here used the White Labs vials, or has anyone used the Wyeast Brett C seasonal release?
 
I brewed this yesterday. You guys weren't kidding about how slow Brett C. is to multiply in the starter. I made a 1.8L starter 72 hours before brewing. I don't have a stir plate but I gave it a good whirl every time I passed it in the house. Also had a 250w heat lamp on it which kept it around 78F. Stuck it in the fridge for 6 hours and decanted. It didn't yield that much slurry, I'm thinking I should have let it go for a week and stepped it up to a gallon to get a good amount of yeast. A day or more in the fridge would have probably been best for decanting since there wasn't a hole lot of settling that happened in 6 hours. Lesson learned. I'm brewing a low gravity beer so I hope I didn't under-pitch. The final recipe I went with is nearly the same as the original post, but I upped the hops a bit.

8 oz. honey malt
8 oz. acid malt
1 lb. red malted wheat
2 lb. malted rye
2 lb. 2-row pale
2.5 lb. pale LME

1oz of cascade (5.4%) and 1 oz of willamette (4.5%) for bittering
0.5 oz willamette @ 15 min.
0.5 oz willamette @ 5 min.

Mashed all the grains with 2 g. of water @ 155F for an hour.
Poured the whole mash through a colander lined with a grain bag, and then poured about 1 1/2 gallons of 176F water over it to rinse the grains.

FG was 1.048 (80%+ efficiency on the mini-mash, I probably rinsed/ghetto-sparged for too long)

I did late extract addition at 15 minutes to go, which puts my IBU's somewhere between 29 - 39 (higher utilization for the first 45 minutes due to lower gravity wort). It may be a too bitter this way, I wasn't accounting for the pretty low FG when I decided to up the IBUs in the recipe. My GU:BU is officially off the classic gravity vs. IBU chart but I hope it turns out. I'm a newb, what can I say... :eek:

I tasted the wort before pitching and it is waaaaay bitter. Much more so than the english brown, the belgian, and the stout I've done in the past. I'm not sure if it's from the hops, or tannins which may have been extracted during my rinsing. I can't tell the difference (yet). Possibly it's fine and pale ales are supposed to taste this way before fermentation?

It was the first time using my fancy new DIY wort chiller, and I let it go a bit too long. The wort was 60F when I pitched the yeast and I'm still waiting for it to warm up to the 70's (16 hours later). No airlock activity yet, the yeasties are probably hibernating. Or I killed them with thermal shock. I put my heat lamp next to the fermenter and I'm hoping this helps.
 
Scone,
I wouldn't worry too much about your yeast. Brett C beers can take several days to show activiy, even with a starter. I wouldn't worry about thermal shock either. Brett are pretty hardy little buggers. Just think of the lengths people go to to keep them out of some beers.

Higher IBUs can work well in these beers, so that shouldn't hopefully be too big an issue. Even if it's not what you were shooting for in the end, it should work well enough. I've had some great all-brett IPAs. Brett C can be pretty fruity, and sometimes sour. Both of these qualities are balanced nicely by some hops, at least in the brett beers I've had. Good luck!
 
how long would you let this sit in the fermenter? I want to try out doing a brett ipa but havent figured out if it should sit for 6+ months or less... i guess it depends on the sourness you want?
 
how long would you let this sit in the fermenter? I want to try out doing a brett ipa but havent figured out if it should sit for 6+ months or less... i guess it depends on the sourness you want?

Brett doesnt really produce much of any sourness, with lots of time and oxygen it can produce acetic acida aka vinegar, but it can also make ethyl acetate aka nail polish/solvent with lots of oxygen

if you want the beer actually sour ala cantillon etc, your gonna need to add pedio, but I personally dont think something that sour would blend well with hops and lots of IBU's
 
as a primary strain they finish very quickly and the profile doesnt change dramatically with lots of aging

Personally I prefer Brett B to Brett L in a solo brett beer, the L really does need some acid in there to make the flavors pop, whereas the brett b is funkier without it
 
On the topic of Brett C activity...

I did an all Brett C blonde on 21 Feb.
- 1.056 OG
- 70% pils, 17% flaked wheat, 4% acidulated, 4% Caravienne, 6% cane sugar.
- Mashed at 148F
- Multiple stepped starter.

Primary fermentation was almost completely done in 24 hours, I racked to secondary after 4 days w/ no airlock activity and SG 1.020.

It sat completely dormant for 2 weeks until yesterday (10 Mar) when suddenly some airlock activity started up, and now there's almost a kraeusen on surface with 1 bubble/minute or so.

I read/heard from Vinnie that Brett will take a beer to 1.020 in 1 week and 1.010 in 8 weeks. I didn't expect the lag in between periods of activity.

Anyone experience similar behavior?
 
Mine took it straight down from 1.072 to 1.008 in 3 weeks, but I pitched a 4L starter that was stepped up three times. The beer though was way better after 6 months than when it it finished after 6 weeks.

I have been reading on babblebelt about APS (yeast nutrient) enhancing the Pineapple aroma. I found that it is produced when the yeast a stressed, but will try with the next batch a pinch of yeast nutrient.
 
don't know about the APS.

I purposely under-aerated my initial wort to create less than ideal fermentation conditions; lowered pH with acid malt as well.

I'm actually kind of excited with the "secondary" fermentation...I'm hoping now it acts like an addition of Brett C after primary ferment, and produces a bunch of stress-related byproducts (i.e. awesome flavor).
 
Sixbillionethans- I've had similar results in my first all Brett batch. I measured 1.018ish at 6 days after all signs of bubbles in the airlock had stopped. I didn't touch it again for 4 more weeks, and the SG was 1.010. It didn't take 8 weeks or anything like that though... I figured 1.010 was terminal gravity so I went ahead and bottled. It tasted pretty good, no strong pineapple or anything so if the flavor is there it's hard to taste. It's a tad bitter which I think is mostly due to my miscalculating the IBUs when I made the recipe up.

Fermentation took 3 days to show signs in the airlock and that was after I raised the temperature of the fermenter to ~80F. It got all the way up to 84 before I caught it and turned the heat lamp off. After 6 days I left it alone and it sat around 65-68 for the rest of the 4 weeks.

No pellicle in mine when I bottled. Also I should add that although I didn't aerate I did add two gallons of bottled spring water (which probably has some dissolved o2) and I also just dumped the wort in the fermenter so that probably aerated a bit as well. I did a simple 2L starter which I left for 3 days under a heat lamp. If I had to guess, I'd say I ended up "slightly-stressing" the yeasties. :)
 
I figured I'd do a final update on the results. The characteristic pineapple flavor has definitely shown up, although it's not unpleasant and I rather like it. It's not really a pineapple flavor, but a unique flavor that *reminds* me of pineapples. It was probably there all along I just didn't catch it pre-carbonation because I was looking for a fruitier tangy flavor.

The beer is very light in color, pale like a white ale, refreshing, and a bit too bitter. I think I will definitely make this again, but with less hops and more honey malt.
 
I thought I'd bring this thread back from the dead since I'm trying this again, but with way less hops, no flavor or aroma additions, and with the recipe slightly modified. Here's the new variation, I'll post again when I've bottled and tasted it.

Grain bill
8 oz. honey malt
8 oz. acid malt (for the Brett to enjoy)
1 lb. torrified wheat (no head on the last batch)
2 lb. malted rye
2 lb. american 2-row
3 lbs. LME

Hops
I cut back a lot. Had a 1oz. package of 4.5% AA Willamette, and that's all I used.

Yeast
I'm lazy so I didn't save any of the yeast from the last batch. I'm also cheap, so I didn't want to buy more thus I grew a starter from the dregs of one of my bottles of the first 100% brett c. batch.

Poured one bottle's worth of yeast into 200 ml starter with 21 g. LME. One day later, added 3 liters of 1.040 wort to starter. When krausen dropped, I refrigerated for a day and decanted.

I did a 90 minute partial boil of 4 gallons (without the LME mind you) to get better utilization, should end up with about 16 IBUs. Added the LME at 90 minutes, and boiled for 10 more to pasteurize the LME.

I pitched the yeast cold (straight of the fridge) into 70F wort, having read some interesting stuff about pitching cold. Seems to work fine, I had airlock activity within 4 hours. Very active fermentation after 12 hours at 78F. Also, I aerated the wort by stirring like mad for a minute or so.

I'm no longer sure what style of beer this falls under. It's hardly a pale ale with such a low IBU, no flavor, or aroma hops. Is it a bitter? Or a mild? What do you guys think?
 
Its a 23a Wild Ale :)
FYI White Labs Brett C vials contain lactobacillus. Not really a published bit of information but I got it from someone doing some scientific work on brettanomyces fermentation. It explains why my Minstrel wild ale got noticably tart.
 
I'm thinking pineapple aroma(for Brett c) and cherry pie aroma (for wy Brett l) are created in the presense of oxygen, such as in a starter or in a barrel or initial fermentation. In a carboy with active fermentation, these great aromas seem to get scrubbed out. It's probably a bad idea, but I'm wondering if you could make a starter of Brett and add it to your bottling bucket to add some nice fruity aroma.
 
I'm thinking pineapple aroma(for Brett c) and cherry pie aroma (for wy Brett l) are created in the presense of oxygen, such as in a starter or in a barrel or initial fermentation. In a carboy with active fermentation, these great aromas seem to get scrubbed out. It's probably a bad idea, but I'm wondering if you could make a starter of Brett and add it to your bottling bucket to add some nice fruity aroma.

I'm pretty sure thats not the case. My "The Muse" Wild Blonde has TONS of pineapple/passion fruit/pie cherry aroma and flavor and was treated just like a normal beer in a BB carboy with an airlock.
 
FYI White Labs Brett C vials contain lactobacillus. Not really a published bit of information but I got it from someone doing some scientific work on brettanomyces fermentation. It explains why my Minstrel wild ale got noticably tart.
get outta town!! can you or anyone else back that up with documentation? :confused:
 
get outta town!! can you or anyone else back that up with documentation? :confused:

Its not documented or advertised, but the person who told me that IS doing a masters degree in fermentation sciences focusing on wild yeast. Plating out everything he has and doing colony isolation and studying he would discover this pretty easily while making sure his samples are bacteria free.
We were talking about the WLP Brett C and he told me its blended with a small amount of lacto and pichia. I checked some of his web posted results and did not see him reference it anywhere.
Email Chris White and see, it may no be something they do anymore.
 
I remember reading the same thing saq. I believe we are talking about the same guy but now I can't find that information either. :/ It's a conspiracy! :D

In regards to oxygen... I think that the presence of oxygen in regards to eventual pineapple aroma and flavor has been suggested, but no one has done a "serious" controlled test to see if this is the case. The guys on the BB board at least seem to think it's a bit more complicated than just that. My first all Brett. C beer turned out with very present pineapple notes, and I decanted the starter, so all that flavor evolved during fermentation. I aerated the wort a bit, but did not oxygenate it.

EDIT:
I think I just realized what you are saying wetherel. I think the pineapple thing is more an effect of an all-Brett. C fermentation. I think when Brett it is used in addition to Saccharomyces there is little to no pineapple, and more 'funk'. If you've got another yeast already going in your beer, adding Brett. C probably won't result in a lot of pineapple flavors. And from what I've noticed, Brett. C by itself resulted in a cleaner tasting beer with a lot less of the characteristic funk of secondary Brett. fermentations.
 
Its a 23a Wild Ale :)
FYI White Labs Brett C vials contain lactobacillus. Not really a published bit of information but I got it from someone doing some scientific work on brettanomyces fermentation. It explains why my Minstrel wild ale got noticably tart.

Chad Yakobson did some work for a MS on Brett, although he said that the WL brett C was actually 2 strains of brett not brett _+ lacto

http://brettanomyces.wordpress.com/
 
I've used wl Brett C 3-4 times (Always with lacto, sometimes with a lacto head start, sometimes not). I get an initial vomit aroma, which transforms into mega pineapple, but then slowly fades away. Maybe it fades away because I let it sit too long (months, when 3 weeks or less is probably more appropriate). It could also be that my room temp fermentation encourages the volatile aromas to dissipate. What temps are you using? Maybe I should start at room, wait for the pineapple explosion, the continue at 60 for a week or two until the gravity stabilizes, then bottle. I've read something about simple sugars encouraging acidity...I wonder if it encourages aroma development as well.
 
Chad Yakobson did some work for a MS on Brett, although he said that the WL brett C was actually 2 strains of brett not brett _+ lacto

http://brettanomyces.wordpress.com/

Thats who told me it was brett C + lacto + pichia. :)
He sent me one of his brett strains that didn't make it into the trials, he isolated it from a oude beersel bottle. I brewed The Bard with it and its been sitting in a keg for a while, its got this funky blue cheese and overripe fruit note I don't know how I feel about. I'm due to check it again soon, haven't touched it in 5+ months. If its still where it left off I'm blending some tart cherry concentrate and about a 1/4 pound of D1 candi syrup in.
 
I've used wl Brett C 3-4 times (Always with lacto, sometimes with a lacto head start, sometimes not). I get an initial vomit aroma, which transforms into mega pineapple, but then slowly fades away. Maybe it fades away because I let it sit too long (months, when 3 weeks or less is probably more appropriate). It could also be that my room temp fermentation encourages the volatile aromas to dissipate. What temps are you using? Maybe I should start at room, wait for the pineapple explosion, the continue at 60 for a week or two until the gravity stabilizes, then bottle. I've read something about simple sugars encouraging acidity...I wonder if it encourages aroma development as well.

I've only brewed an all-brett c. beer once, and I would hardly say it's a pineapple bomb or anything like that, but the pineapple is definitely there. I fermented it very hot (around 80F) actually, it was winter and I had a heat lamp on it that I got a little carried away with. I read somewhere that brett. c likes it hot, though I can't recall the source right now. It fermented out quite fast, and I bottled 3-4 weeks later. As far as acidity, I did have 1/2 lb. of acid malt in the brew, I'm not sure how much that would change the overall acidity of 5 gallons of beer... but it's possible that had something to do with the pineapple as well??
 
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