Legality of my Operation

Hi everyone,

Im hoping I can get some advise from the community on this one before I talk to a legal professional.
Basically, I'm brewing beer in a warehouse space that belongs to a business that is in the ceramics industry. They have some extra space and are allowing me to brew up some beer there free of rent. The beer is only for personal use, not for sale or distribution.
An inspector came by yesterday just doing a general inspection of the building. Although the inspector did not see or know about the beer being brewed, he did ask If i was storing flammable liquids. I said no.
I'm concerned that the use of the space to brew beer might violate the lease contract of the business as it is not stipulated in the agreement that beer will be brewed here. Am I putting the ceramics business at risk by home brewing in their warehouse? If an inspector sees the beer, will that breach any contracts that the ceramic business has with the landlord? I do not want to jeopardize the business.
Also, this is Texas, so beer laws are wanky here.

-thanks

are you using propane or nat gas?

my advice would be to not take the advice of anyone on this forum and talk to a legal professional.

If you aren't selling the homebrew, then you personally aren't doing anything wrong by brewing in your buddy's warehouse.

SO, the only legalities involved would be the governing rules of the ceramics business and the business' lease on the warehouse.

Even those, I would think they would give you fair warning to move the homebrewing out of the warehouse before they took any legal action, so just use a little common sense and I think you are OK.

That said, if it feels iffy, then it is probably iffy, and you may want to seek out some alternatives.

No one can know what the lease agreement specifically stipulates besides the landlord and the business. I suppose technically the "home production" aspect of homebrewing law is being violated but who knows if would ever be an issue.

I think you are safe as far as homebrewing laws go, depending on whether or not your state allows transportation of homebrew (some places are still stone-age level).

But hopsalot has a point about flammable liquids. A portable propane tank may not be legally stored in that place. Or the inspector might be worried about gasoline cans, etc.

If you are using a piped-in gas, then you should be fine. But the only way to know for sure is to find out what the code is for that area.

And for others' clarification, the beer made there cannot be sold, traded, bartered, etc. no matter where it was brewed. Homebrew is for personal consumption only.

IMHO, there are two issues to consider.

1.) Use of Propane. If you are using propane, that is a flammable liguid. "Storing" is an arguable term.

2.) Zoning. The area may not be zoned appropriately for process that involved "Food Preparation" and an inspector may assert that a health department license be required in order for it to continue. It's a commercial property, in a commercialized zone, thus anything that takes place within will be scrutinized under commercial ordinances. The fact that you aren't selling the product has no bearing.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but I would be up-front with the landlord if communication is possible.

Just say you want to respect his property and without knowing the lease agreement in place, would it be ok to brew on the premises.

As a landlord myself, being forthcoming and open with information goes a long way.

hopsalot said:

are you using propane or nat gas?

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Propane

On the federal side, the law is not clear. It mentions the "household" an awful lot, but does not specifically say its illegal. The applicable laws:

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...ext;node=27:1.0.1.1.20.12.390;idno=27;cc=ecfr

Of course, assuming that checks out (not saying it does, I give it a maybe), there's state and local laws to deal with. I don't want to give legal advice, but I'd be cautious. Generally, state and federal agents only care about taxes. Local officials only care about "appearances".

Depends on the state. Each state has different laws regarding homebrew and transporting it.

To get a good read, if you really want it, you need to bring together three things: 1)lawyer, 2) applicable law, and 3) pertinent written agreements (lease) and verbal agreements. Until those three things have been brought together all you've got is farts in the wind.

Pilgarlic said:

To get a good read, if you really want it, you need to bring together three things: 1)lawyer, 2) applicable law, and 3) pertinent written agreements (lease) and verbal agreements. Until those three things have been brought together all you've got is farts in the wind.

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Of course you put #1 and #2 together and you still have farts in the wind.

Lawyers can be good when you need 'em. I use them alot in business and they do me some good at least a third of the time.

This is what I was afraid of. Looks like i've got to stop everything for a while until this is sorted out.

Professional advise from a professional lawyer is not a permission slip. All laws, when not super explicit, are interpreted by a judge when called into question. In this case, we are talking about a gray area of the law (at least federally) and I think professional advice will tell you such.

This is just my personal unprofessional opinion from having dealt with government agencies in my regular job.

First of all, government agencies must have jurisdiction before they can come after you for anything. An OSHA inspector can't write you up for making beer, but he can write you up if you're storing propane improperly.

So the agencies you would have to worry about are the health/food safety departments and the tobacco/alcohol agencies. Their purposes are to protect the public. As long as you are not selling your product to the public, they should not have jurisdiction to bother you.

Now, the relationship with the landlord is another issue. That's his private property and he has say in what activities go on there. That you need to work out with him. It's best you start the conversation before he finds out it's going on without him knowing it.

motobrewer said:

my advice would be to not take the advice of anyone on this forum and talk to a legal professional.

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THIS is the correct answer.

Denny said:

THIS is the correct answer.

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I dont always give legal advise, but when I do...It's wrong

why are you brewing beer there instead at your home?

I would think this is strictly a lease issue. And I doubt the lease specifies what can and can't be done on the property to that granularity. What inspector came by? An agent of the owner? Osha? The fire marshall?

The old saying, "It is easier to ask forgiveness than permission" applies here. If you ask and they tell you "no", you get what you deserve.

Not to hijack, but a lot of the responses mention the landlord and lease. Do all of the homebrewers here, who rent, discuss homebrewing with their landlords?

Slipgate said:

LOL - sorry but I think for myself.

What exactly do you think possibly could happen from him brewing beer for personal use in his friend's warehouse? I mean come on. Grow a spine already. Worst case scenario if there is some sort of problem, they tell him to stop. Do you really think they are going to kick his buddy out of his lease, throw him in jail and launch an investigation into illegal alcohol sales to minors for this? Sad that some people are so scared of life.

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hahaha! cool story bro!


tell it again!!

sad that some people don't understand the realities of owning and operating a business.

Do you think they could confiscate the brewing equipment and fine the business owner?

Notice I didn't ask if they would. I think it's safe to assume the worst case scenario.

And also, that kind of thing could be misrepresented in the press since they love a sensational story. "Business owner fined for running illegal homebrewing operation!"

"Local business owner (insert name here) was fined this week for setting up an illegal homebrewing operation through an acquaintance in the basement of the business. Authorities confiscated the equipment said to be worth hundreds of dollars."

Ok, that might be an exaggeration, but we are just trying to give advice that will help the OP, not try to give advice that might cause harm.

The inspector will tell you what is wrong and what needs correcting. Generally there will be a follow up inspection to make sure the changes are made.

Slipgate said:

LOL - sorry but I think for myself.

What exactly do you think possibly could happen from him brewing beer for personal use in his friend's warehouse? I mean come on. Grow a spine already. Worst case scenario if there is some sort of problem, they tell him to stop. Do you really think they are going to kick his buddy out of his lease, throw him in jail and launch an investigation into illegal alcohol sales to minors for this? Sad that some people are so scared of life.

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Who said anything about sales to minors? Even without that particular strawman, your advice is terrible. Tenants with friends like you is why my family's property company keeps a lawyer on retainer. Commercial leases are typically written with much more restrictive language than residential leases are, and for good reason.

If somebody were doing something on my property that I believed to be harmful, annoying, or illegal, I would evict them in a heartbeat. Do I think homebrewing is necessarily any of these things? No, of course not, but it's reckless to assume that this building's landlord will come to the same conclusion. F***ing with somebody else's landlord isn't "thinking for yourself"...it's being a self-absorbed jerk.

To the OP: ask the landlord. He might say yes, and he might say no, but the last thing you want is a landlord who thinks (accurately or not) that his property is at risk of damage or litigation.

Worst case scenario is that the AHJ (Zoning) would be notified by the inspector not having jurisdiction and another Inspector would come out to serve a Cease and Disist citing fines until a permit is established to allow the secondary use and occupancy.

One of the biggest oversight I see on a daily basis is a landlord being familiar enough about zoning to know that a use is allowed in a certain zone but not smart enough to realize that it still must be permitted.

Sorry gentleman - I didn't see where the OP asked, "Please only give me 'safe' advice". I thought opinions were just that, opinions.

I think the OP can take each reply for what it is, an opinion, and make his own decision.

Slipgate said:

Sorry gentleman - I didn't see where the OP asked, "Please only give me 'safe' advice". I thought opinions were just that, opinions.

I think the OP can take each reply for what it is, an opinion, and make his own decision.

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The OP's question was:

Am I putting the ceramics business at risk by home brewing in their warehouse? If an inspector sees the beer, will that breach any contracts that the ceramic business has with the landlord? I do not want to jeopardize the business.

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You are welcome to your opinion, just as the rest of us are welcome to point out that it is a bad one.

Slipgate said:

I think the OP can take each reply for what it is, an opinion, and make his own decision.

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My jurisdiction actually requires me to certify each year that I am citing actual code devoid of opinion.

Slipgate said:

Sorry gentleman - I didn't see where the OP asked, "Please only give me 'safe' advice". I thought opinions were just that, opinions.

I think the OP can take each reply for what it is, an opinion, and make his own decision.

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True enough. I think that since it is not he who has the lease, that he really should run it by the landlord (or have his friend ask) and take the answer as final. If it's ok with the landlord and the lessee then no one is going to be the wiser, and if some entity did object, they'd just tell him to stop. If the landlord objects, move it out and get over it. IMHO.

GilaMinumBeer said:

Worst case scenario is that the AHJ (Zoning) would be notified by the inspector not having jurisdiction and another Inspector would come out to serve a Cease and Disist citing fines until a permit is established to allow the secondary use and occupancy.

One of the biggest oversight I see on a daily basis is a landlord being familiar enough about zoning to know that a use is allowed in a certain zone but not smart enough to realize that it still must be permitted.

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I don't know about other parts of the country, but here, there are certain land-uses that are allowed within each zone that you don't need to get a permit for. On the other hand, our zoning codes are written such that anything not explicitly listed in the zoning code is actually prohibited. As a zoning administrator, I would say that a lot of the armchair lawyering in this thread has some merit. If I were the owner of the business or the OP, I would argue that homebrewing does not create more impact than having an employee kitchen/lunchroom in the warehouse.

I'd say your biggest threat would be fire inspections. They aren't going to be happy to see a propane tank indoors. Are you actually brewing inside the warehouse? I know it's a likely a large space and CO isn't likely an issue. Try explaining that to the fire chief.

A4J said:

I don't know about other parts of the country, but here, there are certain land-uses that are allowed within each zone that you don't need to get a permit for. On the other hand, our zoning codes are written such that anything not explicitly listed in the zoning code is actually prohibited. As a zoning administrator, I would say that a lot of the armchair lawyering in this thread has some merit. If I were the owner of the business or the OP, I would argue that homebrewing does not create more impact than having an employee kitchen/lunchroom in the warehouse.

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So, if both retail and office are specifically permitted in "Zone X", and the existing space under consideration is a whitebox (meaning no additional construction required), was previously occupied as Retail, and is proposed to be occupied as Office,

A land use change permit would not be required? How about a more extreme situation where both uses a listed as permitted in the zone but have signifigant differences in parking requirements?

The OP reflects a level of concern for the tenant, which may be well founded. Concern at that level should be conveyed to the landlord. Put all cards face up and ask if you may continue; if he says "no," then move on. That simplifies things.

The homebrewing aspect is irrelevant. If your hobby was making birdhouses or working on cars and you did it in a ceramic studio would it matter. Of course not! The point is that it is a hobby and not a business. I can brew beer all day every day at my house even though it isn't zoned for alcohol production. As far as the propane issue.....ok say you won't store it there. Bring it with you everytime you brew. The law says you can't store flammable liquids....not that you can't have them onsite.

GilaMinumBeer said:

So, if both retail and office are specifically permitted in "Zone X", and the existing space under consideration is a whitebox (meaning no additional construction required), was previously occupied as Retail, and is proposed to be occupied as Office,

A land use change permit would not be required? How about a more extreme situation where both uses a listed as permitted in the zone but have signifigant differences in parking requirements?

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Correct. No land use permit is required. We do have a conditional use permit process which is usually where the difference in parking requirements show up. In the rare instance that there is a parking difference in permitted uses, parking requirements are "enforced" through the business license process.

[sorry for the threadjack]

Phunhog said:

The homebrewing aspect is irrelevant. If your hobby was making birdhouses or working on cars and you did it in a ceramic studio would it matter. Of course not! The point is that it is a hobby and not a business. I can brew beer all day every day at my house even though it isn't zoned for alcohol production. As far as the propane issue.....ok say you won't store it there. Bring it with you everytime you brew. The law says you can't store flammable liquids....not that you can't have them onsite.

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The homebrewing aspect is irrelevant. But what is very relevant is that making beer or birdhouses was not negotiated in the original lease. If the landlord objects to what your doing on his property in violation of the legal agreement you made with him, the ins and outs of homebrew law won't protect you.

MalFet said:

The homebrewing aspect is irrelevant. But what is very relevant is that making beer or birdhouses was not negotiated in the original lease. If the landlord objects to what your doing on his property in violation of the legal agreement you made with him, the ins and outs of homebrew law won't protect you.

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....and commence back-pedaling....

A4J said:

Correct. No land use permit is required. We do have a conditional use permit process which is usually where the difference in parking requirements show up. In the rare instance that there is a parking difference in permitted uses, parking requirements are "enforced" through the business license process.

[sorry for the threadjack]

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Ahhh. I find many jurisdictions impose a land use change permit. We are one of those. Our conditional uses typical impose additional screening or operational restrictions.

Slipgate said:

....and commence back-pedaling....

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If you think I'm back-pedaling even a little bit here, you didn't understand what I wrote.