Umami in Beer

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Picobrew

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What do yall think, is there umami in beer at all? Should there be? If there was, would it just taste "off" like meaty/dirty or what? How do we get more of it into the beer? Maybe a beer with umami rich ingredients like carrots, mushrooms, or green tea. Maybe just a water/kombu dashi. Not sure how this would taste in beer.

These are the closest to relevant threads I could find on here:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/vegemite-beer-160732/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f56/dashi-148603/

Any thoughts? Revvy said this previously:

I've been a big "fan" of umami for a few years now. And have somewhat even talked about how it relates to brewing on occasion.

But I have found this to be the Uber website on the topic, http://www.umamiinfo.com/
 
Maybe some well aged barleywines or RIS on the yeast? Just a hint of autolysis wouldn't hurt them, I don't think.
 
Maybe wild brew? Often referred to as "horse blanket" and "wet dog," perhaps that is similar? What I can tell you is that beer and fats = no bueno.
 
Here is what Randy Mosher has to say about umami in beer.

"Yeast contributes rich, meaty flavors through a process called "autolysis," the same process that gives champagne its toasty aromas (autolysed yeast rarely manifests this toastiness in beer). The meatiness comes from the break-down of products of the yeast such as glutamic acid, often manifesting as umami. In very old beers, sometimes soy sauce flavor notes are present, and if they get too strong they cease to be charming." Randy Mosher - Tasting Beer.
 
Umami as in the word made up by kikkoman? :rolleyes: Sorry, I'm not buying it.

Actually;

Umami as a separate taste was first identified in 1908 by Kikunae Ikeda of the Tokyo Imperial University while researching the strong flavor in seaweed broth.[3] Ikeda isolated monosodium glutamate (MSG) as the chemical responsible and, with the help of the Ajinomoto company, began commercial distribution of MSG products.

Whether you buy it or not, it was not made up by kikomen.

Kikomen came later.

In December 1917, eight family companies merged to form the predecessor of Kikkoman Corporation, Noda Shoyu Co., Ltd., with capital of 7 million yen.

1925 April
Noda Shoyu Co., Ltd., merges with Noda Shoyu Jozo Co., Ltd., Manjo Mirin
Co., Ltd. and Nippon Shoyu Co., Ltd.
1930 August
The Takasago soy sauce production plant (formerly the Kansai Plant) is constructed near Osaka.
1957 June
Kikkoman International Inc. is established in San Francisco, California (U.S.).
1961 July
Kikko Food Industries Co., Ltd., is established by Kikkoman. In July 1991, the company becomes Nippon Del Monte Corporation.

:rolleyes:
 
Lets not stop at umami. We also have taste receptors for fat. The old diagram of the four taste bud zones you learned in grade school is nothing more than art.
 
A little Umami/Beer story for ya'

Well into the boil for my last batch of Willamette SMaSH, I realized that I was out of Irish Moss! Of course I was already brewing when I realized the shortage... What does one do? Improvise of course.

Twenty minutes of Google-time and a whole lot of useless information later, I learned that Irish Moss is actually Chondrus crispus (aka red algae).

Now, thinking to myself, "Self, do I have any other red algae laying around the house?" Strangely enough the answer was YES! I have a little stash of dried seaweed flakes I used for making soups and whatnot. The package said 'Porphyra perforata'. WTF? It came from the health food store, not my usual Nori.

More of my life wasted on Google: I found out that Porphyra perforata does contain carrageenan and would make a fine substitute for Irish Moss. So I brewed with it! [~3 grams dried weight]

Move along 6 weeks later: Friends ask me, "What did you do differently? Is this a new yeast?" This SMaSH is so much tastier than the last batch, same mash temp, same yeast, same ferm temp.. even the same bag of M.O.

Hmmm. That's when I remembered the substitution... It appears that Porphyra species contains some of the highest levels of glutamate compounds (umami-ness) amongst various common seaweeds and Chondrus c. contains the lowest amounts.

What do you think?
:fro:

- Mike

ps. I've tried a little experiement to illustrate this: Take a sip of a mild ale of something not-too-hoppy. Eat a little Nori and then take another sip of the same beer. Tastes better now, no? Food pairing?
 
I wouldn't describe the taste as Salty (in the least). Just plain yummy. Maybe slightly sweeter and more rounded with a finish that says "have more!".
Also I think toasted Nori is recommended as a seasoning for people on a low-salt diet(?). For these reason I tend to discount salt as the magic ingredient. Good idea though.

I've been experimenting with so called Umami flavors since having read about them on this here board. That's why the nori was in my cupboard in the first place.
Now I do weird stuff like grilling Shiitake mushrooms, adding miso to my tomato soup stock.. stuff. Who would do stuff like that when there's perfectly good button mushrooms or canned tomato paste?!

Mike
 
Sorry to make it go back up, I want to make a "Meat pie" Ale for my festive ale this year. I will put Cinamon, Jamaican pepper and nutmeg in that ale. I will use the "Jean Talon" yeast salvaged from an Annedda ale.

I wonder how to add the umami without it being too overwelming.
 
What about using Kombu kelp in the "dryhop". It has natural MSG and very rich in umami. It's used to enrich asian broths and soups all the time... Sounds better than using bonito flakes, ketchup, soy sauce, or mushrooms.
 
The dominant protein in barley is glutamic acid. Glutamic acid combines with metals like sodium to create glutamates. Glutamates stimulate the umami receptors, which are located all over the inside of the mouth, throat and even the stomach! That's why beer tasters swallow when wine tasters don't. ;-)
 
What about using Kombu kelp in the "dryhop". It has natural MSG and very rich in umami. It's used to enrich asian broths and soups all the time... Sounds better than using bonito flakes, ketchup, soy sauce, or mushrooms.

I would boil it with the irish moss...
 
I wouldn't describe the taste as Salty (in the least). Just plain yummy. Maybe slightly sweeter and more rounded with a finish that says "have more!".
Also I think toasted Nori is recommended as a seasoning for people on a low-salt diet(?). For these reason I tend to discount salt as the magic ingredient. Good idea though.

I've been experimenting with so called Umami flavors since having read about them on this here board. That's why the nori was in my cupboard in the first place.
Now I do weird stuff like grilling Shiitake mushrooms, adding miso to my tomato soup stock.. stuff. Who would do stuff like that when there's perfectly good button mushrooms or canned tomato paste?!

Mike

When you add miso to your tomato soup, do you usually add red or white?
BTW, adding miso to tomato soup is a damned great idea! Wish I'd thought of it. I'll be trying this this wekend. Sorry about the thread jack, resume ummami beer discussion.
Regards, GF.
 
The thing about glutamates is that they don't taste like much by themselves. Try tasting MSG. What they do is to work with other ingredients to enhance the overall flavor experience. Well, not precisely, because flavor = aroma + taste. But when there are a wide variety of taste sources in a food or beverage, the glutamates (and actually nucleotides too) stimulate the taste receptors in such a way that the overall experience of taste is enhanced. That's why I suggest recipes that contain a wide variety of ingredients, such as 10 or 12 different grains, a touch of celtic sea salt, some carbonates (if appropriate) several strains of hops, etc.

I believe that the suggestion that umami in beer comes solely from autolyzed yeast is incorrect.
 
Sorry to make it go back up, I want to make a "Meat pie" Ale for my festive ale this year. I will put Cinamon, Jamaican pepper and nutmeg in that ale. I will use the "Jean Talon" yeast salvaged from an Annedda ale.

I wonder how to add the umami without it being too overwelming.

I have had good results with this one, more of a fall brew than holiday but some roasted barley or carafa could remedy that:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f76/rudeboy-jamaican-jerk-ale-286567/

Allspice > Nutmeg
 
Sorry to make it go back up, I want to make a "Meat pie" Ale for my festive ale this year. I will put Cinamon, Jamaican pepper and nutmeg in that ale. I will use the "Jean Talon" yeast salvaged from an Annedda ale.

I wonder how to add the umami without it being too overwelming.

Also could try allspice, known in Jamaica as Pimento. Indeed, if you look on the web you can find allspice twigs (AKA Pimento) that Jamaicans burn to cook their jerk chicken. I've never tried it but it occurs to me that they might be useful in the way that gesho twigs are used to make t'ej.

And well caramalized malts will add some umami taste without being overwhelming in my experience.
 
So if I want to get a "Meat pie" Ale, I would have to add the "meaty" taste. I know that Ceppe mushroom when they get rehydrated infuse the water with a beefy flavor. So if I add that water in secondary and kombu in the boil I would get the "Meat Pie" Ale?
 
Jamaican pepper and all spice is the same ;)

I hadn't heard it referred to as such so I assumed you meant scotch bonnets. In that case, you should definitely add some scotch bonnets. Dry them and toast them in a dry skillet... that should add some umami. Mushrooms sounds good but I would be afraid to overdo it and ruin a batch. Adding to the secondary is probably a good idea because you can take samples and add more as needed.

A little allspice goes a long way by the way but if it is too intense it will mellow over time quite nicely.
 
RobertRGeorge said:
Yeah, and I think you are on to something there with the mushrooms. Let us know how it turns out. (How about some raisins?)

No raisin. We were thinking cranberries (dried) tho. But we decided not to.
 
I am currently drinking my "Oooh Mommy" porter (see what I did there?), where I took my standard robust porter recipe, added a 50g package of kombu (Laminaria sp.) strips to the boil, then another 50g to the secondary.

Honestly, it took some getting used to, but the more I drink it the more I enjoy it. Would not recommend it to neophyte beer drinkers. Very earthy aroma with hits of of that salty air you get at the beach. Standard-issue porter chocolatey sweetness followed by a wash of salty bitterness on the mid-palate. Very long cigar smoke/espresso-type finish.

Caveat emptor re: bottle conditioning - Carbonation level will be very slight with absolutely no head retention. I attribute this to two attributes of the kelp that I should have taken into consideration, both of which act as chemical monkey wrenches. First, seaweeds are naturally high in iodine content. Second, the tannic acid imparted by soaking the kelp in the secondary (the main reason why the finish is so freakishly long). I think a combination of those two are why a brew like this ought to be kegged if you want a good carb level, even if you are adding a seaweed "tea" at bottling.

Also - don't bother adding this or any seaweed to the mash. While there are copious amounts of polysaccharides and other available sugars in seaweeds, at a molecular level they are immensely long chains. These molecules can only be broken down into fermentable sugars by either intensely heating them to between 212-572 deg F (study done at Hokkaido Univ. in Japan in the mid-2000's), or having them partially digested by genetically-engineered strains of E. coli (biofuels study at Cal-Berkeley released last year).
 
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