I am a rookie at this stuff and had a very successful blackberry wine using a balloon and bread yeast lol......mixed up a batch of peach and raisin wine ( 12 pounds peaches mashed...2 pounds raisins mashed....about ten pounds sugar added in thirds......bread yeast) I did everything the same as the blackberry except halfway through I found a brew store and bought airlocks, and gelatin finings and pectic enzyme etc. The wine would NOT clear so I added some poectic enzyme...It has been in secondary ( WAY too much head space I am afraid) for quite a while and todat I took an hydrometer reading. It is at 1.00 with an ABV of 0 so the fermentation is complete ( right?) I tasted the sample I used to float the hydrometer and it is absolutely horrid. I cannot adequetly describe it but it is NASTY and tastes like straight alcohol. Is it possible that 3 gallons of wine in a 5 gallon plastic bottle caused it to go bad or what?
Help please
- Thread starter OHIOSTEVE
- Start date
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Hmm... where to start.
Bread yeast, I can't believe would work well for winemaking, I would start there and toss it in favor of a 79 cent pack of premier cuvee or pasteur champagne yeast next time around...
With that much sugar, if you don't use yeast nutrient it's possible you don't have enough nitrogen for the yeast, which can result in nasty off flavors (solventy, hot, fusel alcohols, kerosene smell and slick mouthfeel, etc). From your description it sounds like this is the case. Bread yeast isn't alcohol tolerant above ~7% from what I have heard, whereas champagne yeast can go to 16+% so that may have something to do with it as well. If you hadn't stepped the sugar additions I'm sure it would have stalled and not fermented to 1.000 like it did.
Stepping the sugar is always a good idea but you need to use Fermax and Fermaid-K with that much sugar to be on the safe side.
I doubt sanitation was a problem if everything was squeaky clean. People made wine for centuries without Star San. Of course I would recommend using a good sanitizer now that you are in the know to be sure... it's extra insurance.
Bread yeast, I can't believe would work well for winemaking, I would start there and toss it in favor of a 79 cent pack of premier cuvee or pasteur champagne yeast next time around...
With that much sugar, if you don't use yeast nutrient it's possible you don't have enough nitrogen for the yeast, which can result in nasty off flavors (solventy, hot, fusel alcohols, kerosene smell and slick mouthfeel, etc). From your description it sounds like this is the case. Bread yeast isn't alcohol tolerant above ~7% from what I have heard, whereas champagne yeast can go to 16+% so that may have something to do with it as well. If you hadn't stepped the sugar additions I'm sure it would have stalled and not fermented to 1.000 like it did.
Stepping the sugar is always a good idea but you need to use Fermax and Fermaid-K with that much sugar to be on the safe side.
I doubt sanitation was a problem if everything was squeaky clean. People made wine for centuries without Star San. Of course I would recommend using a good sanitizer now that you are in the know to be sure... it's extra insurance.
OHIOSTEVE
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the reply.....The bread yeast was all I had or had access to when I started the batch. I have since found a great brew store within an hour drive and have a few supplies ( including a few packets of wine yeast) will anything help the two gallons I saved? or is it simply a learning experience that needs dumped down the sink??
I would just let it sit awhile and hope that it mellows out the hot burning alcohol taste. I checked my apfelwein and it was very hot and then the next week the taste was so much closer to a nice wine, and I have high hopes that it will continue to age and taste even better by Thanksgiving and Christmas and New Years eve. I do have more going.
But even knowing and reading that it would get better I could not believe how much better one week could make, let alone a couple of months.
I can only assume that other wines will be "raw" and "hot" right out of the gate.
But even knowing and reading that it would get better I could not believe how much better one week could make, let alone a couple of months.
I can only assume that other wines will be "raw" and "hot" right out of the gate.
If you want to save it go ahead and stabilize it now with Campden and potassium sorbate, then fine it with gelatin to drop out the yeast. Rack it to a clean vessel of appropriate size and let it sit for about 4-6 months, then taste it. Right now it will taste like rocket fuel, and there is still yeast in there that won't flocc which tastes really bad too (one of the problems with bread yeast is that it doesn't flocculate well when it is done fermenting).
There are plenty of LHBS online if you don't want to drive an hour for supplies. In Ohio there is Listermann in Cinci, they do mail order through their web site and I have heard they are good, they would be next day shipping for you.
There are plenty of LHBS online if you don't want to drive an hour for supplies. In Ohio there is Listermann in Cinci, they do mail order through their web site and I have heard they are good, they would be next day shipping for you.
OHIOSTEVE
Well-Known Member
thanks....I am gonna have to make a run to the store. I have the gelatin but have potassium metabisulphite rather than campden tabs and potassium sorbate. I thought the potassium metabisulphite actually worked to kill wild yeasts before you add the yeast you want AND to stop fermentation when you get to where you want.... I think I jumped in with both feet before studying enough. Thank you for the advice.
OHIOSTEVE
Well-Known Member
OK here is what I did. Please do not take offense that I did not follow your directions exactly, I have to use what I have right now. I brought the 2 gallons back down stairs and removed the airlocks. I put in about 1/16th teaspoon of the potassium metabisulphite ( I say about due to 1/8th tsp being my smallest measuring device) I then added approximately 1/4 tsp of gelatin finings to each bottle. Shook it up and reattached the airlocks. I plan to rack into clean containers tomorrow. NOW after the racking do I store it with airlocks attached or do I seal the gallon carboys? Also I can do a couple of more rackings if that will smooth it out at all.
OHIOSTEVE
Well-Known Member
WOW!!!!! I am amazed. This has been setting for a couple weeks with almost no sediment on teh bottom. I added the stabilizer and the gelatin finings just ( what a half hour ago?) there is a good inch and a half or more of sediment on the bottom of each jug! Now I wish I hadn't tossed the gallon or so I did.
I'd bet that once this finishes clearing, if you'll rack it carefully to another carboy and leave it be a while, you'll be amazed at the difference in taste even in a few weeks. Unless you have something growing in there that seems to be eyeing one of your cats, don't be too quick to throw out a batch. You'd be amazed how often a batch can be saved, even if it's not the best it could be. Bread yeast is optimized for baking, not winemaking, but it is yeast after all, and yeast + fruit + time = wine.
OHIOSTEVE
Well-Known Member
I have to confess that I HAD to see if dropping the sediment would make a difference so I removed the airlock and dropped a SANITIZED eye dropper in the top nd pulled out a small sample...it tastes totally different ( not GREAT as it is WAY more dry than I like) but something that I WOULD drink already. THANK YOU GUYS VERY VERY MUCH! Now can someone tell me how to "undry" this a bit? I am thinking of leaving one gallon as a pretty dry wine and sweetening the other a bit. Here is what I PLAN to do if you guys think it will be ok. I am gonna lose a bit of the wine when I rack it due to the depth of the sediment. I am thinking that I will boil some sugar water and top off using that. Not sure how much to do however. ALSO am I done with the fining agent with this batch? I mean do I add it again after I rack it?
You can "undry" it by back sweetening. Leave it were it is for another few days to finish clearing. Rack to another container, stabilize and degas. I would let it sit for a while after that. When it is aged and ready to bottle, boil up some table sugar with water and add it to the wine in the bottling bucket.
The amount of sweetening can be calculated by gravity points. Wine normally ferments to .996 or so (very dry). By adding enough sugar to get the gravity to 1.000 - 1.008 you have a medium dry wine and above 1.008 would be a sweet wine.
Alternatively, you can measure out a cup of wine and start adding sugar. When it gets to the sweetness you like, calculate the sugar amount needed for the remaining wine. Warning: wine sweetens as it sits in the bottle so don't go crazy with this method or you will end up with Kool Aid.
The amount of sweetening can be calculated by gravity points. Wine normally ferments to .996 or so (very dry). By adding enough sugar to get the gravity to 1.000 - 1.008 you have a medium dry wine and above 1.008 would be a sweet wine.
Alternatively, you can measure out a cup of wine and start adding sugar. When it gets to the sweetness you like, calculate the sugar amount needed for the remaining wine. Warning: wine sweetens as it sits in the bottle so don't go crazy with this method or you will end up with Kool Aid.
Nomadic_Joel
Well-Known Member
Sometimes, I feel like we are helping guys in prison make alcohol!!! LOL.
"err I need help making wine with bread yeast and a baloon!" hahah!
"err I need help making wine with bread yeast and a baloon!" hahah!
OHIOSTEVE
Well-Known Member
it happens...you start somewhere...and the bread yeast and ballon blackberry was fantastic.
OHIOSTEVE
Well-Known Member
Thanks. This was at 1.000 on the hydrometer but there were so many suspended solids that HAD to have messed up the reading .
Thank you all for the help, my cell mate and the rest of the guys on the block appreciate it also.
Bread yeast is fine for certain applications, as long as you recognize its limitations and quirks. See the threads for Joe's Ancient Orange Mead. It will make a decent, sweet, lower ABV wine, even though it makes more CO2 than necessary, is hard to clear, and the lees tend to be puffy and harder to rack off of. Wine yeasts and ale yeasts have been cultivated to have specific properties and avoid some of these issues. Once you get into the hobby, you can try different yeasts for different recipes and see what works for you. I wouldn't totally discount bread yeast just because it's the traditional approach to making hooch, but I would try some of the others out there and see what you like. I use ale yeasts for my ciders, because I like them a little less dry, and ale yeasts give me the taste I like. I've also made some nice apfelwine with champagne and premier cuvee yeasts. I also have 3 gallons of sweet mead going with bread yeast right now. My philosophy is if you're not going to make what you personally like to drink, you may as well go buy something off the shelf.
OHIOSTEVE
Well-Known Member
I just went up and checked on the wine ( in a closet upstairs) to see if it had cleared any..it is amazing to me. I can LITERALLY read a paper through it. SMall amount of yuck in the bottom of each bottle. I will leave it set a while longer then degas and bottle it.
I love gelatin, it's great stuff.
Campden == potassium metabisulfite. So you are good there.
If you try to backsweeten you will want to add potassium sorbate, to prevent refermentation in the bottle, 1/2 tsp per gallon. Then let it sit with the sugar for a few days just in case it referments so you don't have exploding bottles. If you don't want to make a trip to LHBS call a pharmacy and grocery store and ask them if they have any potassium sorbate, they just might, since it is a common food preservative.
Campden == potassium metabisulfite. So you are good there.
If you try to backsweeten you will want to add potassium sorbate, to prevent refermentation in the bottle, 1/2 tsp per gallon. Then let it sit with the sugar for a few days just in case it referments so you don't have exploding bottles. If you don't want to make a trip to LHBS call a pharmacy and grocery store and ask them if they have any potassium sorbate, they just might, since it is a common food preservative.
ChshreCat
Well-Known Member
Check out the recipe section and try out some of those with real wine yeast from the LHBS. You'll be amazed at how it comes out for you. If you thought this one turned out good... 
