Can it all work on 50A?

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mmonacel

mmonacel

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So I'm in the initial stages of planning my E-system. After a quite a bit of reading I'm convinced I'm going to use a 50A spa panel. My ideal scenario is this - just not sure if 50A can make it all happen:
  1. Three vessel system - each electric
  2. HLT is one element; MLT is RIMS tube with one element; BK (ideally) has two elements but one would be fine
  3. I'd like to maximize the wattage for each element to minimize heat ramp ups
  4. Two pumps
  5. PIDs and SSRs for each element to start, ultimately a BCS involved
  6. Spare 120V outlet for computer, assorted other needs

I have no problem running in another 20A circuit to feed the pumps, computer, etc. if needed but is it possible to run it all off a 50A panel? Thoughts?
 
Probably the max amps you want to use continuously is more like 40 than 50. You will likely need a selector switch to change between HLT/MLT and BK heating but that should be OK. The RIMS won't take a huge element. It might not be a bad idea to have low voltage stuff on a separate supply anyway because SSRs switching heavy loads can generate a lot of noise on the power line.
 
As long as you don't plan on running all three at the same time you should be fine.

For the price of three PIDs I would just get a Brewtroller or BCS to start with and be done with it.
 
alien said:
Probably the max amps you want to use continuously is more like 40 than 50. You will likely need a selector switch to change between HLT/MLT and BK heating but that should be OK.
Click to expand...
Right - I know when doing residential wiring the rule of thumb is to not load higher than 80% of capacity. I'm assuming that follows suit here?

alien said:
The RIMS won't take a huge element.
Click to expand...
For the RIMS is what is a standard wattage that most folks shoot for? I don't want unnecessary power, but I certainly don't want to be underpowered. Ideally I'd like to be able to do relatively quick temp rests / ramps.


alien said:
It might not be a bad idea to have low voltage stuff on a separate supply anyway because SSRs switching heavy loads can generate a lot of noise on the power line.
Click to expand...
Yeah - while I could run a 120 off of the 240, it's almost just as easy to bring in a full dedicated 20A circuit to run alongside if you're already in the panel.
 
naamanf said:
As long as you don't plan on running all three at the same time you should be fine.
Click to expand...
I'd ideally like to be able to do just that if possible.

naamanf said:
For the price of three PIDs I would just get a Brewtroller or BCS to start with and be done with it.
Click to expand...
I hear you. The BCS is my ultimate system, but I'd hate for there to be an issue with WiFi, my computer, or some other crap that stops me from being able to brew. The PIDs would allow the "manual" aspect of it and then I can layer the BCS on top to do all sorts of other things. I realize it's considerably more expense for basically duplicate functionality, but I don't want IE or Firefox telling me mid-brew that it can't connect or something.
 
Even the career electricians on this forum cannot agree on whether the 80% rule applies to a brew system. I believe one reason is the fact that this is not a branch circuit, nor is it a true continuous use appliance like a residential water heater. I am not an electrician and I'm not giving you advice, but I have no concerns about running a 50amp spa panel at 49 amps.

I think the Cadillac of designs here can put 9000 watts into the HLT at one interval (rapid strike heating), then add 1500w of RIMS during the rest while the HLT is heating sparge water. That's 10,500watts and at 240v, that's under 44 amps leaving some room for a pump to run. Once you are sparging and collect enough wort to cover the BK element, fire a 5500w element in there on PID manual mode while using a selector switch/contactors to prevent the HLT from firing at all. While I don't anticipate that the HLT would lose too much temp during the sparge, you could always route it through the RIMS tube to keep the sparge temp topped off. Bonus is that you're cleaning the RIMS out at the same time.
 
mmonacel said:
I'd ideally like to be able to do just that if possible.


I hear you. The BCS is my ultimate system, but I'd hate for there to be an issue with WiFi, my computer, or some other crap that stops me from being able to brew. The PIDs would allow the "manual" aspect of it and then I can layer the BCS on top to do all sorts of other things. I realize it's considerably more expense for basically duplicate functionality, but I don't want IE or Firefox telling me mid-brew that it can't connect or something.
Click to expand...

Then go with a brewtroller. It can be run directly from the panel with a LCD and rotory controller and/or browser or dedicated iPad/iPhone app.
 
naamanf said:
Then go with a brewtroller. It can be run directly from the panel with a LCD and rotory controller and/or browser or dedicated iPad/iPhone app.
Click to expand...

But I'm all geeked out about the BCS and completely sold. Logic no longer enters the equation here. :cross: hahaha! Thanks for the suggestion though but I'm in love.... :D
 
mmonacel said:
But I'm all geeked out about the BCS and completely sold. Logic no longer enters the equation here. :cross: hahaha! Thanks for the suggestion though but I'm in love.... :D
Click to expand...

Brewtroller setup with a BX1 will cost the same amount as PIDs. Just saying.
 
The PIDs would allow the "manual" aspect of it and then I can layer the BCS on top to do all sorts of other things.
Click to expand...

You can just use switches to do the same thing. There are lots of examples around here with a BCS with 3 way switches to have manual control, manual-off-BCS.

All of this well said and would work with bcs too.
Bobby_M said:
Even the career electricians on this forum cannot agree on whether the 80% rule applies to a brew system. I believe one reason is the fact that this is not a branch circuit, nor is it a true continuous use appliance like a residential water heater. I am not an electrician and I'm not giving you advice, but I have no concerns about running a 50amp spa panel at 49 amps.

I think the Cadillac of designs here can put 9000 watts into the HLT at one interval (rapid strike heating), then add 1500w of RIMS during the rest while the HLT is heating sparge water. That's 10,500watts and at 240v, that's under 44 amps leaving some room for a pump to run. Once you are sparging and collect enough wort to cover the BK element, fire a 5500w element in there on PID manual mode while using a selector switch/contactors to prevent the HLT from firing at all. While I don't anticipate that the HLT would lose too much temp during the sparge, you could always route it through the RIMS tube to keep the sparge temp topped off. Bonus is that you're cleaning the RIMS out at the same time.
Click to expand...
 
Bobby_M said:
I think the Cadillac of designs here can put 9000 watts into the HLT at one interval (rapid strike heating), then add 1500w of RIMS during the rest while the HLT is heating sparge water. That's 10,500watts and at 240v, that's under 44 amps leaving some room for a pump to run. Once you are sparging and collect enough wort to cover the BK element, fire a 5500w element in there on PID manual mode while using a selector switch/contactors to prevent the HLT from firing at all. While I don't anticipate that the HLT would lose too much temp during the sparge, you could always route it through the RIMS tube to keep the sparge temp topped off. Bonus is that you're cleaning the RIMS out at the same time.
Click to expand...

Nice - makes a great deal of sense. So what you're describing above is essentially an HLT with two 4500W elements, a RIMS with 1500, and a BK with 5500 and a single pump. You don't happen to have reference to a PJ drawing for this do you? :eek: All the drawings I see use a single element for each but a double HLT element would be great especially since you're switching back and forth anyway. If you're going 240 / 50A why not pimp your ride? :D
 
Actually to go even further, if you're selecting between the BK and HLT so that only one could ever fire at a time couldn't you outfit the BK with the same 9000 watts? Necessary? Probably not since your wort's already coming out warm from the MLT, but maybe a nice capability to have.

When having two elements in a vessel, do people typically somehow pair them up under the same PID or do you need a separate PID for each?
 
I have 10k in both the hlt and the bk and I pair them up to one I/O of my BCS which would be the same as one pid for each kettle. With 10 gallon'ish batches you only need one in the BK for sure so it's a bit overkill, but in my case I can run all 4 elements at once and it's handy to have to heat the hlt and strike water super fast and all at once.
 
mateomtb said:
I have 10k in both the hlt and the bk and I pair them up to one I/O of my BCS which would be the same as one pid for each kettle. With 10 gallon'ish batches you only need one in the BK for sure so it's a bit overkill, but in my case I can run all 4 elements at once and it's handy to have to heat the hlt and strike water super fast and all at once.
Click to expand...

How are you able to run all four at once? That's gotta be a 80+ amp draw. Do you have two big lines feeding your setup?
 
mmonacel said:
How are you able to run all four at once? That's gotta be a 80+ amp draw. Do you have two big lines feeding your setup?
Click to expand...

Yes, I ran 2 - 50 amp 4 wire circuits from the main to my brew area, into 2 spa panels for GFCI then into my control panel. Similar to how you would wire a hot tub.
 

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