My first double IPA - Critique please!

I've still got to gather some experience in malt/hop/IBU levels so how does this sound...?

Is the FG way too high?

http://hopville.com/recipe/1211812/home-brew/tangerine-dream-double-ipa

A few things

Your 60 minute additions are kind of all over the place. Keep in mind you won't get much, if any, flavor for 60 min additions, only bitterness, so maybe just stick to one hop (preferably a high AA hop like summit). I would add a 10 or 5 min addition as well (or both!). The .25 ounces of cascade at 1 minute aren't going to do a whole lot in such a big beer, don't be afraid to throw in an ounce or more at the end. Don't be stingy with the hops! The last IPA I made had 1 60 minute addition, and then additions at 15, 10, 5, and 0 minutes. It was delicious.


And I would say the FG is too high. You have a lot of malt in there. I personally use a simple malt bill for IPAs, generally just 2 row and crystal. If I were to take anything out, I'd say take out the Vienna and maybe even cut back on the Maris Otter - unless of course you want a sweet and malty IPA.

Another recommendation is to throw in a pound of sugar and adjust the malt extract. That will help dry the beer out quite a bit.

These are just some things I would personally do, so they're just my opinion.

Cheers!

I'd cut down on some of the extract and use corn sugar instead to lighten up the body and make it drinkable instead of "thick". An IIPA should be quaffable and not heavy bodied like a barley wine. Corn sugar will really help with that, as well as reducing the FG.

I'd also cut some of the 60 minute hops, and the 30 minute hops. The way it looks, all you have are bittering hops and dryhops while an IIPA is more hoppy and less bitter in the finish. I'd change up the hopping totally.

You need more late hops, also. .25 oz of cascade is not nearly enough. Even using one ounce this is probably not enough, as you want BIG hops aroma and flavor. Using those same hops, I'd do this:



boil 60 mins 1.0 Summit
boil 20 mins 1.0 Cascade
boil 15 mins 1.0 Northdown
boil 5 mins 1.0 northdown
boil 1 min 1.0 Cascade
boil 0 min 1.0 Summit
dry hop 7 days 0.5 Cascade leaf 5.5
dry hop 7 days 0.5 Northdown leaf 8.5
dry hop 7 days 1.0 Summit leaf 17.5

Many thanks for the feedback. Yikes, that hop bill drops my IBU from 180 to 80!! Hmmm.. i need more hops. So what kind of ratio of malt extract / corn sugar should i be looking at? I am aiming for 9% ABV.

I may consider single hopping this one and buying a load of Summit.

Ok, a revised version

http://hopville.com/recipe/1211812/home-brew/tangerine-dream-double-ipa

and single hopped version.

http://hopville.com/recipe/1212446/imperial-ipa-recipes/tangerine-dream-single-hop-double-ipa

What i don't understand is why this recipe uses more specialty grains and less hops(with lower AAU!) but still turns out more or less the same as mine but with a higher IBU.

http://hopville.com/recipe/90727/imperial-ipa-recipes/squirrel-tail-double-ipa

????

FOUR ounces of hops at 60 minutes? Why? That seems counter to making a drinkable and quaffable IIPA. Firm bittering is good. Lots of hops flavor and aroma is excellent. But adding 4 times the hops needed will cover up the flavor and aroma and just leave behind BITTER. An IIPA should have great hops flavor and aroma with enough malt to balance all the hops with a nice firm bittering behind. IBUs are sort of deceiving- you can only get about 90-100 IBUs in solution anyway plus the human tongue can only perceive up to about 100 IBUs anyway. But my point is that this beer will not be enjoyable and quaffable with 4 ounces of bittering hops.

Ok, so what am i missing?? Don't I need to balance the malt out with enough IBUs? Ive seen some that are 250 IBU ?!

From the other recipe i linked, how does that recipe come to such high IBUs with so little (and late) hops??

Scaradanga said:

Many thanks for the feedback. Yikes, that hop bill drops my IBU from 180 to 80!! Hmmm.. i need more hops. So what kind of ratio of malt extract / corn sugar should i be looking at? I am aiming for 9% ABV.

I may consider single hopping this one and buying a load of Summit.

Click to expand...

Bitterness is overrated. IBUs and all that BS is overrated. You have your instructions late hopping is key. You need more AROMA and FLAVOR.

That is all.

1oz-1.5oz for bittering (summit would be my choice) everything else should be packed into the last 15 minutes of the boil. What is your expected/desired OG?

Well i was aiming for below a FG of 1.020, so OG of around 1.075??

Anyway, it looks like my understanding of bittering and hopping beers is all off.. Maybe the measurements in hopville have thrown me off? I was still after some explanation of how people are giving these 150+ IBU ratings by using less hops with lower AA and more grains??

I will stick to Yoopers hop bill with 1.5 at the start (so i use the whole pack of summit ;0) )

boil 60 mins 1.5 Summit
boil 20 mins 1.0 Cascade
boil 15 mins 1.0 Northdown
boil 5 mins 1.0 northdown
boil 1 min 1.0 Cascade
boil 0 min 1.0 Summit
dry hop 7 days 0.5 Cascade leaf 5.5
dry hop 7 days 0.5 Northdown leaf 8.5
dry hop 7 days 1.0 Summit leaf 17.5

http://hopville.com/recipe/1211812/home-brew/tangerine-dream-double-ipa

Is 52 IBUs really enough??

Scaradanga said:

Well i was aiming for below a FG of 1.020, so OG of around 1.075??

Anyway, it looks like my understanding of bittering and hopping beers is all off.. Maybe the measurements in hopville have thrown me off? I was still after some explanation of how people are giving these 150+ IBU ratings by using less hops with lower AA and more grains??

I will stick to Yoopers hop bill with 1.5 at the start (so i use the whole pack of summit ;0) )

boil 60 mins 1.5 Summit
boil 20 mins 1.0 Cascade
boil 15 mins 1.0 Northdown
boil 5 mins 1.0 northdown
boil 1 min 1.0 Cascade
boil 0 min 1.0 Summit
dry hop 7 days 0.5 Cascade leaf 5.5
dry hop 7 days 0.5 Northdown leaf 8.5
dry hop 7 days 1.0 Summit leaf 17.5

http://hopville.com/recipe/1211812/home-brew/tangerine-dream-double-ipa

Is 52 IBUs really enough??

Click to expand...

It depends on what your OG is. If your OG is going to be 1.095, then no, 52 IBUs isn't quite enough. You could use 2 ounces of summit at 60 minutes then. But your post is saying an OG of 1.075 or so (which is better). I'd lower the corn sugar by two pounds and keep the hopping the same. Three pounds of sugar is WAY too much.

Also, I see you have campden tablets and table salt in the boil. I assume the campden is actually for before the boil, to remove chloramines, but why the table salt? Can you just leave that out?

They are actually Buxton water salts. I've used them ever since ive started, just a bit of a habit.

Yooper, so comparing mine to the recipe that I linked

http://hopville.com/recipe/90727/imperial-ipa-recipes/squirrel-tail-double-ipa

Where am i going wrong? I'm obviously spending a lot on this brew so want to to go as right as it can. I just want to have a clear mind about IBUs and so on. Im very much a newbie!

The longer you boil hops, the more bitterness you get. Boiling hops for 1 hour will produce a lot more bitterness than hops boiled for 30 minutes.

On the contrary, hops boiled for shorter times will produce less bitterness but more flavor. So you add hops at the beginning of the boil for bitterness but no flavor, and you add hops towards the end of the boil for more flavor and very little bitterness.

EDIT: Here's an example. If you boil 1 oz of Summit for 60 minutes, you will get almost no flavor or aroma but a lot of bitterness (IBU points). If you boil the same amount of summit for 30 minutes, you will get a little bitterness and a little flavor/aroma. If you boil the Summit for 5 minutes, you will get almost no bitterness (you will get some), but you will get a LOT of flavor and aroma.

Hoppiness isn't just about IBUs. You want to make sure you have a good amount of IBUs from the beginning, then figure out your late-boil additions for flavor/aroma.

I understand that part but what permits you to get crazy on the hops for a double IPA?

The linked one used 3.5oz of hops for 60mins. He obviously got it right and won an award for it. So how is mine different from his if i (like him) add lots of late hops and get an IBU of around 150?

Scaradanga said:

I understand that part but what permits you to get crazy on the hops for a double IPA?

The linked one used 3.5oz of hops for 60mins. He obviously got it right and won an award for it. So how is mine different from his if i (like him) add lots of late hops and get an IBU of around 150?

Click to expand...

Ah, sorry I misunderstood.

I'm still not following the question... Something to keep in mind is alpha acids. Summit versus something like Cascade will produce different amounts of bitterness. The higher the alpha acids, the higher the potential bitterness.

MaxSpang said:

Ah, sorry I misunderstood.

I'm still not following the question... Something to keep in mind is alpha acids. Summit versus something like Cascade will produce different amounts of bitterness. The higher the alpha acids, the higher the potential bitterness.

Click to expand...

Thanks Max but i understand that too! What i don't understand is how i was over hopping my recipe, particularly in the early hopping section. I was doing this to get the IBUs up to something similar to other Double IPA recipes i have seen. But i am willing to put extra hops in to get the aroma/taste right.

So, i have a similar recipe to other ones but Yooper etc have warned me that my brews will be way too bitter. I just wanted to know why these other recipes work and mine doesn't.

Im confused!!

Scaradanga said:

Thanks Max but i understand that too! What i don't understand is how i was over hopping my recipe, particularly in the early hopping section. I was doing this to get the IBUs up to something similar to other Double IPA recipes i have seen. But i am willing to put extra hops in to get the aroma/taste right.

So, i have a similar recipe to other ones but Yooper etc have warned me that my brews will be way too bitter. I just wanted to know why these other recipes work and mine doesn't.

Im confused!!

Click to expand...

Corn sugar has provides no flavor, but thins and dries out the beer. An all malt beer will be "heavier" and can support more bitterness, for one thing. More than about a pound or two of corn sugar is too much for that beer. Secondly, "more bitter" isn't usually a good thing and IBUs don't always tell the story. Like I said, you can't get more than 100 IBUs in solution anyway, so anything calculated higher is not possible. But the key is balance. A well balanced beer can "hold" more IBUs than one that isn't balanced well. I hope that makes sense!

look at recipes and how their ibu% is split up (like a grain/malt bill). You'll see most (if not all) dont go real heavy on the 60-30 minute hop additions but more so the 20-0 and dry hop additions.

OK guys, i think ive got it. Ill tread lightly with the hopping of this new brew.

I've now brewed the recipe below. Fingers crossed!

http://hopville.com/recipe/1213380/imperial-ipa-recipes/tangerine-dream-single-hopped-double-ipa

bethebrew said:

Bitterness is overrated. IBUs and all that BS is overrated. You have your instructions late hopping is key. You need more AROMA and FLAVOR.

Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more. You'd be surprised how much pleasant bitterness can be attained with very little focus on the early additions. I suggest overwhelming the IPA with 95% of your hops from 15-0-DH. Use IBUs as a rough guideline, not absolute fact. Focusing on a ton of late additions will skew the actual readings... and percieved bitterness can be a lot different from actual IBUs. Once you pass 95 actual IBUs, the readings are not all that accurate. One of the best Double IPAs around, Pliny the Elder, is probably more like 70-90 actual IBUs despite listing 200+ theoretical IBUs. The key to that beer is smooth (but still highly dominant) bitterness with a blast of aroma and flavor. Also, the amount of hops needed will greatly depend on the OG of the beer and your personal goal of how you want the beer to taste in the end.

To comment on your recent recipe, you won't really want to use both honey and corn sugar in those amounts. Limit these highly fermentable sugars from 4-7% total in your recipe. These items should REPLACE some of the base malt you use, NOT add to it. You may want to consider getting your FG below 1.018 and implementing a FULL wort boil instead of topping off with plain water for the best possible results. For a style like this, you really want that full wort boil to isomerize those hops and avoid dilution of flavor which will give you a somewhat, vapid one-note beer. In closing, you may need an additional packet of yeast for such a high OG... you could always make a big starter with WLP001. I got 79% attenuation from it in my last IPA.