Got a keg, riddled with guilt...

Well, not really riddled with guilt, but I've had ups and downs as it's been sitting in the garage.

I've got a Guinness keg that I got from a local classified ad website. The guy claimed that his buddy owns a bar and that it was legit. I didn't know any better and "purchased" the keg. After speaking with my LHBS, he was very adamant about making sure I knew that this keg was without a doubt the property of Guinness or its distributor. By even having it in my garage, I'm in possession of stolen property (according to LHBS). To add another element to it, I live in a state where people cannot purchase kegs of beer (only bars and taverns can have these- kegs are outlawed for end-user consumption).

Sooo...even if I were to try to give this keg back, I'm not sure of what course of action I could take since there aren't any avenues for people (and not businesses) to return these things for a return of deposit. Even then, I have no receipt or evidence of where it came from except that it is indeed a Guinness keg. The thought of driving out of state isn't appealing to me, especially if it is uncertain if a liquor store would even offer me any deposit back.

I wouldn't mind just using a plasma torch and cutting a hole in the top and making it a brew kettle, but my LHBS proprietor's scolding remarks about stolen property echo in my head. What do y'all think about this? From what I've read, these kegs don't ever legally make it into the hands of the public as fully intact units...only as scrap sold from the Keg shredder. If I'm sweating this too much, does anyone have any insight as to where I could get a completely legal keg (online?)?

Other than that, just to throw in something completely different, what about turning it into a fermenter? I'm thinking I like the corny keg lid better than the sanke valve on top, especially since it allows for easy cleaning of the keg and still allows pressure. Thoughts on this too?

you got it keep it..next time get a legit one. and the LHBS would love to sale you one for alot more cash..

Guy said it was legit, just go with it. LHBS owner sells brewpots doesn't he? Hmmm conflict of interest?

It really is a gray area morally. No one is going to knock on your door and demand their keg back. If you go to any lengths to "return" the keg to the rightful owner you most likely will find that no one will take it from you.

If it really bothers you then call the local distributor and explain to them you have a keg and what they would advise. I'm willing to be they will say they don't want it.

You asked and the seller said it was cool. You are golden.

Tell your LHBS guy to get stuffed. I'd say he's a jaggoff for laying a guilt trip on you.

Yeah, if you're really worried, just stick with the "I didn't know" story. It was true at the time you bought it. At any rate, good job grabbing a keg. I'm still trying to find one that doesn't cost me my life's savings.

WillPall, where do you live? I may have an extra one laying around.

Time to fire up the plasma torch.

conpewter said:

WillPall, where do you live? I may have an extra one laying around.

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I live in Auburn, Al. A little far for a quick drive I think. Thanks for the offer though. Maybe I'll luck up on one that somebody didn't turn in after a party.

I've said it before, but stolen property is stolen property. If my son-in-law steals a car, and then gives it to me, it's still stolen property even if I didn't steal it myself. If someone pays the deposit on a keg, it's not THEIR keg. They simply don't get their deposit back if it's not returned. The deposits on kegs don't cover the actual cost of the keg. That doesn't give them the right to "sell" it for the deposit.

Deposits are rising, since some people have taken to keeping kegs and/or turning them in for the scrap value. Having something that isn't sold properly isn't right. Stolen is stolen, no matter how you slice it. The keg belongs to the brewery. Unless THEY sold it to you, or their distributor, it's a stolen keg.

If this doesn't bother you, fine, but let's not talk about it on the forum. If it does bother you, then do something about it but let's not talk about it on the forum.

Just to set you straight, you said "From what I've read, these kegs don't ever legally make it into the hands of the public as fully intact units...only as scrap sold from the Keg shredder." I purchased all of my kegs from Full Sail Brewing in Hood River Oregon as decommissioned kegs. Many breweries sell kegs that are beyond repair for their original purpose.

I'll skip the rest of it as Yooper has laid down her law! And I am scared of women with hockey sticks.

don't sweat it man...this question opens up a whole can of worms here and people are very passionate about what side they fall on. I say it's yours now so do with it whatever you want.
Slightly OT: Local distributors here will let you keep the keg for the deposit

twst1up said:

Local distributors here will let you keep the keg for the deposit

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That's like saying you can walk out of a bowling alley wearing rented bowling shoes as long as you're willing to eat the deposit. It's not right. End of story.

Yuri_Rage said:

That's like saying you can walk out of a bowling alley wearing rented bowling shoes as long as you're willing to eat the deposit. It's not right. End of story.

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yeah, i don't know...I called 2 diff places to see if i could buy a de-commished keg. Both told me if I paid for a keg of beer i could just keep the keg and forfeit my deposit. I was more than a bit surprised, but it's probably not my place to tell them whether it's right or wrong...in any event i haven't gotten one yet

I asked the AB driver in my area after the 4th of July the 5th wheel driver if he had any damaged or off brand kegs available, he picked up more kegs than he delivered on his truck route. He gave me two AB kegs free no worries. One had a bashed in top skirt the other the bottom skirt split and damaged. Plasma cut off and ground clean both damaged skirts and made a 25 gallon keggle out of both. I have 3 Full Sail pony kegs found in my empty rental house back yard, called Full Sail, I had no papers for them they said then keep them. I've asked and received free kegs, I consider this not stealing. There are few local scrap yards that take solen kegs and purchase them from street people, that's stealing.

Oh noes!!! Now I'm worried about all those deposits on my bottles of beer that I have been using for homebrew. Hopefully Stone doesn't raid my house to get all their bottles back...
Deposits on kegs should be higher than they are in a lot of places as long as it's not hard to get the deposit back if you are on the level. Kind of reminds me of the scene from Clear and Present Danger when they want to take the chopper for a test flight.....
Jack Ryan: I'm here to rent the Huey.
Helicopter owner: We don't rent it anymore, but it is for sale.
Jack Ryan: How much?
Helicopter owner: Two million dollars.
Jack Ryan: Uh, my pilot and I will have to take it for a test drive.
Helicopter owner: Of course, you just have to leave a deposit.
Jack Ryan: How much is that?
Helicopter owner: Two million dollars.

I don't technically own all those milk crates that all say "Property of (whatever) Dairy" either, but that doesn't stop me from using them to do everything from store books to carting around full carboys.

For what it's worth, odds are super slim you will find anyone that'd take the keg back without the original receipt, even it you take it to the brewery. Do don't worry about it. Get to brewing and know you've given that poor homeless keg a better life.

You could call the brewery and see if they want the kegs back (they'd have to come get them). I doubt they'd send a truck out to get them. If you get something and the original owner doesn't want it back then I'd call it legit.

Do kegs have serial numbers for tracking? I've never seen one...
/just wondering...

conpewter said:

You could call the brewery and see if they want the kegs back (they'd have to come get them). I doubt they'd send a truck out to get them. If you get something and the original owner doesn't want it back then I'd call it legit.

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My thoughts exactly.

It isn't that complicated.

No need for guilt.

If they want it back, tell them to re-imburse you.

STOLEN IS STOLEN....Fair enough, but what now? Turn yourself in You low life criminal?

Calmly contact guinness. Either they will tell you to keep it, or they will want it but will give you free beer.

YooperBrew said:

I've said it before, but stolen property is stolen property. If my son-in-law steals a car, and then gives it to me, it's still stolen property even if I didn't steal it myself. If someone pays the deposit on a keg, it's not THEIR keg. They simply don't get their deposit back if it's not returned. The deposits on kegs don't cover the actual cost of the keg. That doesn't give them the right to "sell" it for the deposit.

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When the owner/distributor/etc refuses to refund the deposit when the keg is returned, AFAIC, its no longer stolen property.

A lot of the distributors will refuse to refund the deposit if the keg is gone for more than a couple of weeks. As far as I'm concerned, if they're refusing to honor the deposit, the keg is yours.

This happens to a lot of bars, and they end up just chucking the kegs.

after 90 days they will refuse the keg here. Even with the receipt and they charge 75$ deposit .. And new kegs aren't that much more when you buy in bulk like BMC does.

this was a price for 10 kegs from Schaefer keg company in Buffalo NY

olllllo said:

If you really want to know the exact price of a new keg, call these guys http://www.schaeferkegs.com/.

I know from talking to professional brewers that over the years, new kegs cost between $90 and $150. This does not even count shipping or other hassles associated with replacing stolen or lost kegs.

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Dwain said:

Since I really wanted to know, I called them. I talked with Richard. I asked about 10 kegs with NO INTERNALS. $130 ea. + shipping. They ship out of Buffalon NY and he said to Texas, just guessing $5-$7 ea. These are new kegs. - Dwain

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In my neck of the woods, when you rent a keg, they attach a sticker to the side with signatures on it. If the sticker is damaged upon return, the business will refuse to return your deposit. The prob is these stickers don't last long floating in a garbage can full of ice for 24+ hours. This leaves a lot of people with kegs that will never make it back to the brewery(owner). If there has been an honest attempt to return the keg, and it will never make it back to the brewery that owns it. I consider it fair game. Check your moral compass and proceed in the right direction. Would I rather see this keg melted down for scrap or in my brewery? mmm...good beer.

Picked up a guiness and a scottish courage keg at the scrapyard for 80 cents a pound, they still held pressure and are not very dinged up, no idea where they came from, it happens quite often. One is now a fermenter and haven't decided yet on the other, it may accidentally get a big hole cut in the top of it cuz it's bigger around than my hacker schorr munchen keggle.

The way I see it, there's all sorts of ways the OP's keg could have gotten into the hands of the guy he bought it from, and not all of them involve someone having stolen it. The guy he got it from told him it was legit, and some other person speculated that it was stolen.

I'd keep it and do what I wanted with it. No reason to feel guilty at all - you don't even have a credible reason to suspect it was stolen.

Deposits on kegs should be higher than they are in a lot of places as long as it's not hard to get the deposit back if you are on the level.

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In some states, deposits charges are legislated at a low rate. The brewery is powerless to raise them to an appropriate level.

Larger breweries might have an incentive to keep them low knowing that losses will cripple a small brewery.

In almost all cases, deposits are not market controlled and do not reflect replacement costs.

You are all free to do what you like, but do not use this forum to justify illegal at worst - unethical at best, behavior.

I need to track down pepsi, apparently I bought a lot of cornie kegs from a guy that stole them. (Sticker on the keg says so)

olllllo said:

You are all free to do what you like, but do not use this forum to justify illegal at worst - unethical at best, behavior.

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Theres nothing unethical about using something the brewery refuses to take back.

olllllo said:

You are all free to do what you like, but do not use this forum to justify illegal at worst - unethical at best, behavior.

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You are free to close this thread too, but I know you won't because you are ethical.

Me . . . I'm just cheap.

Lets all settle down and brew a beer huh?

Synovia said:

Theres nothing unethical about using something the brewery refuses to take back.

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In your prior post, you talked about returning it to the distributor,
The distributor does not own the keg. The brewery owns the keg.

In cases where the state regulates keg deposits, the point of sale may not accept the keg without receipt.

If you knowingly put yourself in a position to get this keg in this manner, it is, in fact, unethical.

If you had a keg from a small brewery, they would take it back in a heartbeat.

conpewter said:

I need to track down pepsi, apparently I bought a lot of cornie kegs from a guy that stole them. (Sticker on the keg says so)

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Corny kegs were the container of choice for the beverage industry, they no longer are. A majority of that stock was sold to third parties and put on the open market.

If at some point the Sankey Keg is no longer the preferred container for the Beer market, a similar thing may happen. I wouldn't count on that happening soon.

The obvious analogy though is the Golden Gate Keg. Those are available on the retail and secondary market.

If you see a Hamms Golden Gate keg on eBay, I guarantee that Pabst via Hamms won't ask for it back.

True, I just think it sucks that if you have a keg it is assumed that you stole it, when kegs are decommissioned and are sold off. I have kegs that I've made into kettles, they are pretty crappy looking and I was told they are legal (as with the cornie kegs). I don't know for sure they are legit, but I try to trust people until that trust is betrayed.

I don't see alot of distributors or breweries clamoring to get their kegs back, maybe that's why resourcefull homebrewers started to use them in the first place? If it were a big deal to anyone, they wouldn't be so accessible, ya think?

olllllo said:

If at some point the Sankey Keg is no longer the preferred container for the Beer market, a similar thing may happen. I wouldn't count on that happening soon.

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Might be sooner then we think

http://www.onewaykeg.com/main.php

I found mine on craigslist. Guy had a posting that he buys kegs. I wrote him I would buy them from him for $10 more then he was paying. Turns out he is a liquor store owner. He sells keg shells to people.

He could only sell me non miller/coors kegs. Not sure why he could sell me other ones. I don't feel guilty. I am sure he knows the rules and knows the system. If he can buy and sell kegs I should not worry about it. As far as I am concerned. I legitimately purchased a keg from a retailer.

olllllo said:

In your prior post, you talked about returning it to the distributor,
The distributor does not own the keg. The brewery owns the keg.

In cases where the state regulates keg deposits, the point of sale may not accept the keg without receipt.

If you knowingly put yourself in a position to get this keg in this manner, it is, in fact, unethical.

If you had a keg from a small brewery, they would take it back in a heartbeat.

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Again, its a simple process. I give a deposit. I am promised that if I return the keg, I will get my deposit back. If they will not give me my deposit back, then they are transferring ownership of the keg to me by refusing to honor the conditions that were agreed upon.

Synovia said:

Again, its a simple process. I give a deposit. I am promised that if I return the keg, I will get my deposit back. If they will not give me my deposit back, then they are transferring ownership of the keg to me by refusing to honor the conditions that were agreed upon.

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The distributor/liqour store does not have ownership to transfer. The proper course of action under the law in most states is to sue for breach of contract, replevin, or under another state-specific statute (to get your deposit back), or to even request that the police investigate the theft of your deposit.

If the brewery is the owner, and the brewery assertively abandon's their property by informing you that they do not want the keg back, then that's one thing. "Trading" deposits for merchandise is another.

Munsoned said:

The distributor/liqour store does not have ownership to transfer. The proper course of action under the law in most states is to sue for breach of contract, replevin, or under another state-specific statute (to get your deposit back), or to even request that the police investigate the theft of your deposit.

If the brewery is the owner, and the brewery assertively abandon's their property by informing you that they do not want the keg back, then that's one thing. "Trading" deposits for merchandise is another.

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Again, the distributor has a contract with the brewery. I do not. I have a contract with the distributor. The distributor acts as an agent for the brewery.

If the big brewerys are keeping the deposits low to keep small brewerys from operating whats wrong with keeping the big brewerys keg?Its like being a modern day Robin Hood.

Synovia said:

Again, the distributor has a contract with the brewery. I do not. I have a contract with the distributor. The distributor acts as an agent for the brewery.

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This makes no legal difference in terms of your responsibility.

Even if it did, it would be completely unethical.

Knowingly paying $20 or something that costs the owner $130 that is not recoverable by the brewery because of some vestige of prohibition is not ethical.

Your argument wouldn't hold on probrewer and it won't here.

Again. you can do what you like, but I won't let such foolish notions stand unopposed on this board.

Synovia said:

Again, the distributor has a contract with the brewery. I do not. I have a contract with the distributor. The distributor acts as an agent for the brewery.

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Absolutely.