Used whirlfloc with disasterous results.

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looneybomber

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So I tried whirlfloc for the first time tonight. I do partial mashes on the stove (BIAB). Tonight I used 8lbs of grain and 7lbs of DME. I mashed in kettle one (2.5gal) and sparged in kettle two (1.75gal). I combined and added water till I hit 3.75gal.

Normally, using that much grain means I get a lot of debris floating in the wort that takes FOREVER to settle out, so I tried whirlfloc to speed up the process.
Boil finished around 6:30'ish, I whirlpooled it, and put it in my 35deg container of water outside. Around 7 when it was cool enough, I brought it in and set it on the counter. I racked it to my fermenter around 9:30, giving it plenty of time to settle...just like I always do.

As I start racking, I keep the end up on the auto siphon near the surface of the wort, sucking bubbles every once in a while. Worts flowing nice and clear...for about 1 gallon. Nearly the next 3 gallons it looked like I was sucking chocolate milk (brewed a porter). Normally, with a lot of grain, I get that towards the last 1 gallon and feel bad for having to waste that gallon, but 3/4 of the wort was like that! I can't just dump everything down the drain and leave only about 1.5 gallons (once I add top-up water to lower the gravity) to ferment.

Any ideas what happened? I see so many rave reviews on whirlfloc and thus far this has been the dirtiest, nastiest wort ever. I've done batches with 14lbs of grain and 6oz of hops and it was very close to being as bad as this, but it was because I racked over too much hop material.
 
looneybomber said:
So I tried whirlfloc for the first time tonight. I do partial mashes on the stove (BIAB). Tonight I used 8lbs of grain and 7lbs of DME. I mashed in kettle one (2.5gal) and sparged in kettle two (1.75gal). I combined and added water till I hit 3.75gal.

Normally, using that much grain means I get a lot of debris floating in the wort that takes FOREVER to settle out, so I tried whirlfloc to speed up the process.
Boil finished around 6:30'ish, I whirlpooled it, and put it in my 35deg container of water outside. Around 7 when it was cool enough, I brought it in and set it on the counter. I racked it to my fermenter around 9:30, giving it plenty of time to settle...just like I always do.

As I start racking, I keep the end up on the auto siphon near the surface of the wort, sucking bubbles every once in a while. Worts flowing nice and clear...for about 1 gallon. Nearly the next 3 gallons it looked like I was sucking chocolate milk (brewed a porter). Normally, with a lot of grain, I get that towards the last 1 gallon and feel bad for having to waste that gallon, but 3/4 of the wort was like that! I can't just dump everything down the drain and leave only about 1.5 gallons (once I add top-up water to lower the gravity) to ferment.

Any ideas what happened? I see so many rave reviews on whirlfloc and thus far this has been the dirtiest, nastiest wort ever. I've done batches with 14lbs of grain and 6oz of hops and it was very close to being as bad as this, but it was because I racked over too much hop material.
Click to expand...

Was it protein clumps? Like egg drop soup?https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/question-creamy-ale-sediment-431257/
 
I believe that the sludgy stuff you saw was cold break - exactly what whirlfloc is intended to generate. The way to go is to just dump that all into your fermenter, and it'll drop out at the end of fermentation, leaving that haze-inducing crap in with the trub.

It's a definite RDWHAHB situation. Wort is gross looking, fermenting beer is gross looking, clear, finished, carbed beer is wonderful :)
 
How much whirlfloc did you use and when did you add it?

How fine was your crush? If you happen to get a bunch of suspended grain flour in the boil, whirlfloc isn't going to help clear that out. The good news is that it will drop out during ferment. Cold crashing will help to firm up the trub layer and make it harder to suck out of the primary. My first batch on my E-BIAB rig was like this before I tweaked my processes on it. It looked like a bunch of tan mud going into the fermenter. After cold crash, it was very clear going into the bottling bucket. Tasted great too.
 
Yeah it isn't in the boil that wirlfloc is effective - it sets up the solids to drop in fermentation. The wort I use it in look way different than when I don't. Wait until it is done, you'll see.
 
As has been said, this is the normal result of using whirlfloc (or Irish moss - Whirlfloc is just a compressed for of Irish moss, in fact), hence the name - it causes the cold break to flocculate into larger chunks, so it can fall out of suspension more readily. Once the cold break settles, the beer will be clearer than it would be otherwise.

Note that it is unusual to use it with a dark beer like a porter (though if it's meant to be a ruby porter I could see using it, I guess); the main goal is that it settles out the proteins than cause chill haze, which isn't an issue with darker beers as any haze won't be readily visible. Even if the beer isn't opaque (which porter shouldn't be), it would be dark enough to make chill haze a moot point, I would think. I would save the Whirlfloc for paler beers (Pilsners, Pale Ales, Tripels) rather than use it where the results won't be noticeable.
 
Schol-R-LEA said:
I would save the Whirlfloc for paler beers (Pilsners, Pale Ales, Tripels) rather than use it where the results won't be noticeable.
Click to expand...

Why do you feel you need to "save" it at all? It's not in short supply, and the stuff is dirt cheap, so I find this kind of thinking rather baffling. There's no real reason you can't do both.
 
You will end up with clearer beer when you go to all grain and do a full boil. I use whirlfloc myself, but sometimes forget to put it in, and I always end up with clear beer now. There are things in extract that don't settle out, proteins I guess. And doing all grain BIAB needs a full boil just because you want to mash the grains that way. One or the other has made my beer clear. Or maybe there's a third thing I do, I bought a keg, and chilling the beer in the keg, and having it all settle out in one vessel, makes for a clear tap.
 
ResumeMan said:
I believe that the sludgy stuff you saw was cold break - exactly what whirlfloc is intended to generate. The way to go is to just dump that all into your fermenter, and it'll drop out at the end of fermentation, leaving that haze-inducing crap in with the trub.

It's a definite RDWHAHB situation. Wort is gross looking, fermenting beer is gross looking, clear, finished, carbed beer is wonderful :)
Click to expand...

If you are going to dump it all into the fermenter, what's the point of using it?
I assumed the point of whirl floc was to make it easier to seperate the break material out in the kettle to keep it out of the fermenter?
 
The first time I used it, it made huge clumps in the fermenter that looked like rocks. But it cleared completely. That was a very simple extract blonde. I use it sometimes but often forget. Time also clears it, but that stuff is cheap, so why not.
 
As noted above, that's exactly what the Whirlifloc does. When I remember to use it, my wort looks like it has a bucket of popcorn or a loaf of bread in it because there is so much coagulated protein. After 24 or so hours, all of that gunk is nicely compacted at the bottom, and some of it swirls around during the ferment. The point is, it's clumped together and sinking to the bottom rather than in suspension making your final product cloudy.
 
dzlater said:
I assumed the point of whirl floc was to make it easier to seperate the break material out in the kettle to keep it out of the fermenter?
Click to expand...

It's really a six of one/half dozen of the other kinda thing. Either way will work, but just dumping it all in is a really simple, easy way to do it.
 
One thing I noticed.. unless I mis interpreted it.. You said you put it outside. While it may be cold outside, it's nothing like doing a good chilling of the wort with an immersion or plate chiller. That fast chilling really helps set up the break material.. in MY experience. Helping the Whirl Floc do it's job.

Also, there seems to be some discussion by retailers and even a distributer about WHEN to add the tablet.. and how much. Most say to add it at 5 minutes others say at the 15 minute mark. Apparently, Whirlfloc becomes less effective the longer it's in the boiling wort. Some breweries add it at the whirlpool stage.. maybe that's how it got the name "Whirl"floc.

Finally, while it's cheap and who cares, each tablet is supposed to be good for 10-15 gallons. Pop them on a medicine pill cutter and cut them in half. Or simply score and break with a knife. Not rocket science.
 
Schol-R-LEA said:
True, but my point is that there's little reason to use it in darker beers.
Click to expand...

I use it in all beers.

Maybe you can't see the clarity, but getting a good hot break and a good cold break, using whirlfloc, means less stability issues and a "cleaner" beer without protein haze (chill haze).

Quick chilling works very well to get the cold break to drop out quickly, leaving only clear wort behind in about 20 minutes.
 
I haven't use whirlfloc yet so I don't have input there... I would change how you're going from the kettle to the fermenter though.

From what I've learned you want a good bit of O2 or air in the wort before you add the yeast so simply pouring it from the kettle to the fermenter would work better and faster than racking with an autosiphon.
 
Schol-R-LEA said:
As has been said, this is the normal result of using whirlfloc (or Irish moss - Whirlfloc is just a compressed for of Irish moss, in fact), hence the name - it causes the cold break to flocculate into larger chunks, so it can fall out of suspension more readily. Once the cold break settles, the beer will be clearer than it would be otherwise. Note that it is unusual to use it with a dark beer like a porter (though if it's meant to be a ruby porter I could see using it, I guess); the main goal is that it settles out the proteins than cause chill haze, which isn't an issue with darker beers as any haze won't be readily visible. Even if the beer isn't opaque (which porter shouldn't be), it would be dark enough to make chill haze a moot point, I would think. I would save the Whirlfloc for paler beers (Pilsners, Pale Ales, Tripels) rather than use it where the results won't be noticeable.
Click to expand...
I would advise using it in all beers. Reducing chill haze, even if not visible in a pitch black stout (although judges have ways to tell), will improve storage life.
 
mcangeli said:
From what I've learned you want a good bit of O2 or air in the wort before you add the yeast so simply pouring it from the kettle to the fermenter would work better and faster than racking with an autosiphon.
Click to expand...

Just watch out for spilling. I used to do this when I first started, but a half gallon of wort on the floor made me stop that practice. :)
 
Ok, so it sounds like it'll settle in the fermenter and not the kettle. I thought it'd settle everything out in the kettle and I was gonna rack off clear wort. Guess I'll see how it works later, but my hope was it'd take some of the fine powdery residue out of the wort that doesn't stay in the grain bed since I don't have a grain bed doing BIAB.
 
looneybomber said:
Ok, so it sounds like it'll settle in the fermenter and not the kettle. I thought it'd settle everything out in the kettle and I was gonna rack off clear wort. Guess I'll see how it works later, but my hope was it'd take some of the fine powdery residue out of the wort that doesn't stay in the grain bed since I don't have a grain bed doing BIAB.
Click to expand...

Yes, generally it does settle everything out in the kettle. But when I get the best hot break, it's from dropping the temperature from boiling to 65ish in about 20 minutes, and then the cold break falls out. Perhaps moving it upset that, or it didn't get that cold that fast, but it will still fall out in the fermenter if you didn't leave it in the kettle.

I have a counterflow chiller, so all of the cold break ends up in the fermenter. I still have a super clear beer so no worries!
 
Yooper said:
Yes, generally it does settle everything out in the kettle. But when I get the best hot break, it's from dropping the temperature from boiling to 65ish in about 20 minutes, and then the cold break falls out. Perhaps moving it upset that, or it didn't get that cold that fast, but it will still fall out in the fermenter if you didn't leave it in the kettle.

I have a counterflow chiller, so all of the cold break ends up in the fermenter. I still have a super clear beer so no worries!
Click to expand...

You probably "lose" some volume when you go to bottle, vs "losing" some volume when you leave it in the kettle. Either way, you always leave some behind. It's always sad when I see that last little bit that you can't get without picking up some sludge.
 

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