Hop Rehab E-Herms build

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

smittygouv30

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2011
Messages
332
Reaction score
21
Location
Fayetteville
Hello all,
I've changed my mind about 1000x's since deciding to construct a HERMS system about 4 months ago. The idea started off very very small and gradually built and built into what it is today. I blame this site, theelectricbrewery.com, auberins.com, and ebrewsupply.com for giving us wanna-be DIYers the confidence (or stupidity, however you look at it) to try to put together things of this magnitude.
None-the-less, I was initially going to try to keep and keep this thing at 120V so I didn't have to mess with the electrical in my house. After researching the installation process of a 30A 240V breaker, a 4 prong dryer receptacle, and a spa panel I felt it was simple enough to not let it hold me back! So here I am. I've revamped my plan to now include a single 240v 5500W element controlled by a SYL-2352. A second SYL-2352 will be installed for MLT temperature readings with utilization of its alarm features to monitor abnormal temperatures and inform me when the sparge temp is reached. A timer (JSL-71) will also be included. No electric boil kettle as I will continue to control the boil with propane. Lastly, the control panel will have switches to turn on/off 2 pumps, and a switch to turn off the element. For now I've chosen to not include an e-stop mostly because I think they are hideous, but have a feeling i'm going to be talked into including it.

I have yet to order my electrical parts but have finally sat down to design the control panel face. I have a a bunch of wiring diagrams saved to my desktop that I have jacked from other build threads. I plan to hack them all up in the coming week or two to come up with something that will suit my build. I have been back and forth deciding if I want to beg PJ to help me out, but for now I will resist. Regardless, I will certainly require lots of help/feedback along the way. A special thanks to badnewsbrewery for all of his guidance thus far.

One of the things unique about my build is that I want to use a digital photo frame as my "Power on" indicator instead of a plane ol' boring blue light :cross:. It looks like it'll be straight forward to wire, as the frame comes with an AC power adapter. I'm not quite sure how I'll mount it but I'm thinking i'll just put a slit in the control panel and slide the thin leg stand on the back of the frame inside the panel and seal it with some silicone to keep anything from getting into the panel. I think it has potential to look very cool but the negative is it takes up a lot of space on the panel front. Any thoughts on this? Cool idea or is it going to look "cheesy"? http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0093IBQVM/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Here is my control panel face which should be to scale:

View attachment Control Panel Final.pdf
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I'd also be interested to hear others input about alarm controls. As of now I just have one on/off switch that will control one buzzer. Inputs to the buzzer will come from one PID to as well as the timer. Will I regret not having individual on/off switches for each. I see many builds that have reset buttons and on/off switches, both. I just don't want to regret anything once I get this thing built.

Also, I've tried re-attaching my control panel image as it wasn't showing up on my phone when I checked the thread this morning.

Corey

Control Panel final (2).jpg
 
Finally finished my wiring diagram. Please don't hold back, be as critical as you can. I had zero electrical knowledge prior to becoming a home brewer. Now I have zero electrical knowledge plus a working grain mill, keezer, and temperature controlled fermentation chamber.

I'm seeking feedback on everything, but specifically panel design, safety of the panel, and of course making sure it will work.

Thanks,
Corey

Hop Rehab wiring diagram.jpg
 
I like the idea of not using a simple blue LED - I have been building a back-light logo box for mine, should be visually stunning when finished. So definitely keep your picture frame if that's what you want to do!

Wiring diagram - the 25A breaker should have the Black AND Red lines run to it - it's a dual pole breaker.

I'm not sure what pin 8 is on the Timer, but why are you powering it from the alarm of your PID on the right? Does the alarm-out condition from the PID activate something on the timer?

For safety, the EPO argument can be made. I'm not sure if anyone has ever actually used their EPO in an emergency setting, but hey... better safe than sorry.
-Kevin

Edit - your pump switches show that you want LEDs. You may want to consider an illuminated switch - then the LED is integrated into the switch, saving you an extra hole in the control panel.
 
Think of the estop as an on/off switch that is easier to use. Depending on how it is wired the estop and on/off switch can be redundant.
 
Hey Kevin,

Thanks for the feedback. Yea I don't know why I didn't add the second hot line to the dual pole breaker. I blame it on my brain being mush from the hours of reading/researching I did yesterday prior to putting together the wiring diagram. I have fixed that now.

As for pin 8 on the timer that should be the alarm output that will join together with the PID outputs from pin 1 and 14. I just put it together sloppy so you couldn't tell that it was jumping over the timer power inputs at 6 and 9. This is also fixed now.

I thought about the illuminated switches/pushbuttons for my pumps. To me I don't think it looks as clean which is why I went with the standard black switches and a green LED.

I get the whole EPO switch for safety. Honestly my main reason for not wanting one is I think they look really cheesy. Like I said I think I can be convinced but seriously what is the difference between squishing the "hideous gigantic red mushroom" or flipping the 2-way power on/off switch, .003 seconds? The thing that is going to be the problem is how long it takes for me to move from wherever I am standing to the control panel, not how long it takes me to push the button vs turn the switch. Of course this is all in my very biased opinion.

Corey

Hop Rehab wiring diagram.jpg
 
Thanks for clarifying the Pin 1/4 - Pin 8 thing - makes sense now.

To each their own on the switches - I think one single hole, one single switch looks cleaner than a switch and an LED, but you're not building me a panel so what I think on 'clean' doesn't mean much.

I am risk averse so I believe an EPO is a good idea, and I don't think it looks goofy. I am also logical and can't really think of any situation where anyone would NEED to hit the EPO. Maybe someone on here has had some sort of istance, but unless you had some serious arcing in the panel that didn't blow the GFCI, I'm not sure what you'd need it for - but say you think you need one anyways... the gross motor movement required to slap a big mushroom button is FAR simpler than grabbing and turning a key. Additionally (depending on how you chose to wire it), the EPO will kill power to your entire panel, including the feed. Your key switch just kills power downstream of the main contactor.
 
the gross motor movement required to slap a big mushroom button is FAR simpler than grabbing and turning a key. Additionally (depending on how you chose to wire it), the EPO will kill power to your entire panel, including the feed. Your key switch just kills power downstream of the main contactor.

But is it though? I'm wondering what the percentage time difference would be? I should time myself setting my beer down, jumping from my lawn chair and slapping an EPO vs setting my beer down, jumping from my lawn chair and turning a 2-way switch off. My guess is that it is less than a 5% difference in time. Is that enough to save a life? I don't know. Maybe that's the question?

That's a good point about the EPO tripping the panel and feed instead of just the panel. I hadn't thought of that but I suppose error could happen between the spa panel and the panel power in. Good point my friend.

Corey
 
Think gross motor movements though. Panic reactions. Handling keys and dealing with activities requiring dexterity may be challenging if you're in a situation that would warrant using an EPO
 
Point taken. I don't plan to use keys just a standard switch so that should further reduce time. You are doing a nice job with the persuasion, I think I'm almost there. What are your thoughts on the alarm set-up. I know you set-up individual on/off switches. Do you see any problem with one 2-way switch to turn on/off both alarm outputs?

Thanks,
Corey
 
I have no idea how the inner workings of the PID would be affected by having the output of two devices tied to one alarm and backfeeding voltage from the PID in alarm hitting the timer not in alarm. Probably no issue but again, I don't know. My thought was that each device will have its own alarm condition so why not have an alarm for each...
 
Pid alarm should have 2 terminals for the NO relay so you can supply the appropriate voltage to one side and alarm output on the other side.

The estop becomes critical for industrial OSHA approved applications. In these applications the estop should kill high voltage power at the input to the panel.

For DIY homebrew, use whatever you want/need.
 
jCOSbrew said:
Pid alarm should have 2 terminals for the NO relay so you can supply the appropriate voltage to one side and alarm output on the other side.

Thanks for the response. Im not sure I'm grasping your comment completely. My understanding is that pin 13 should be the power in and pins 1 and 14 should be jumped together and then go to the NO contactor/alarm. Are you recommending something different in my diagram?

Thanks,

Corey
 
I have no idea how the inner workings of the PID would be affected by having the output of two devices tied to one alarm and backfeeding voltage from the PID in alarm hitting the timer not in alarm. Probably no issue but again, I don't know. My thought was that each device will have its own alarm condition so why not have an alarm for each...

Yea the backfeeding issue was part of my concern as well. The wiring I have is similar to how Kal has his alarms wired except he has each alarm wired to an individual switch, not both to the same switch like mine. Either way this should result in the same situation once two or more alarms are switched on at the same time (again backfeed would happen). I'm sure there must be times when he has more than one alarm switched on, no? But he doesn't specify on the alarm wiring page if only one alarm can be armed at a time.

Also, after re-reading his alarm wiring page, I think I need to set-up an alarm for my HLT after all. (ie strike temperature has been reached)

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-part-2?page=12

Thanks,

Corey
 
The alarm out is just a NO (Normally Open) Relay so there is no "backfeed", when multiple alarm conditions are occurring you have multiple hot wires connected to each other, they all have the same voltage.

The reason why Kal uses multiple alarm On/Off switches is so when the MLT hits the "alarm" temp threshold he can disable this alarm output. Otherwise you have to reprogram the PID to change the alarm condition or threshold to clear/stop the alarm condition. I am not familiar with the Auberins timer, it may have buttons on the front to easily reset/clear the alarm.
 
The alarm out is just a NO (Normally Open) Relay so there is no "backfeed", when multiple alarm conditions are occurring you have multiple hot wires connected to each other, they all have the same voltage.

The reason why Kal uses multiple alarm On/Off switches is so when the MLT hits the "alarm" temp threshold he can disable this alarm output. Otherwise you have to reprogram the PID to change the alarm condition or threshold to clear/stop the alarm condition. I am not familiar with the Auberins timer, it may have buttons on the front to easily reset/clear the alarm.

Thank you! That's what I needed to hear. I'd rather keep just one on/off switch to control all 3 alarm outputs. This will of course save some space on the panel face. Can you think of a situation that I will regret not having individually controlled switches for the 3 separate alarms?


Corey
 
The alarms wired together definitely won't be an issue, I have separate alarm switches but only so I can turn them off easier as previously mentioned. One option you could use is a 3 position switch so you have an off, an all on or just one alarm on. It would at least give you some options
 
The alarms wired together definitely won't be an issue, I have separate alarm switches but only so I can turn them off easier as previously mentioned. One option you could use is a 3 position switch so you have an off, an all on or just one alarm on. It would at least give you some options

Thanks for the confirmation on the alarm wiring. Interesting thought with the 3-way switch, maybe I could go with "timer on", "off", and "all on". I'll give it some thought.

Are there others who regret there current alarm set-up and wish they did things differently?

Corey
 
I have a pause/reset toggle switch for my timer, I really like that to keep from playing with the small buttons on my timer. I used an on-off-momentary on switch to have it all in one.
 
I have a pause/reset toggle switch for my timer, I really like that to keep from playing with the small buttons on my timer. I used an on-off-momentary on switch to have it all in one.

Ahhh, yea i'm guessing that my come in handy. What timer did you use, sestos? I went to your build thread and think I might be interested in doing the same. Do you have a link to where you got it? Why did you go with that one over the Auber timers? The omega timer kal uses is outrageously priced so unfortunately that's not in the cards.

Corey
 
smittygouv30 said:
Ahhh, yea i'm guessing that my come in handy. What timer did you use, sestos? I went to your build thread and think I might be interested in doing the same. Do you have a link to where you got it? Why did you go with that one over the Auber timers? The omega timer kal uses is outrageously priced so unfortunately that's not in the cards.

Corey

I did use a sestos one. Cost was the big reason I got that one instead of the one map used. It also has 4 buttons to change the time like the omega one which I liked. I got it off eBay but I don't remember who from. I got it for around $28 shipped so it was a bit cheaper than the auber one as well
 
Any regrets with the sestos? I have been back and forth deciding if I should go with ASL-51 or JSL-71. I think the JSL will look better as it has the red top row and green bottom row that will match the same color scheme as the auber PIDs.

Corey
 
I've only been able to use mine once but I haven't had any problems. The directions are terrible though. It took a while to get it set up because I struggled with their Chinese to English translations
 
Ok thanks man, I think I'll probably end up sticking with one of the auber timers. Most likely the JSL, but we'll see.
Are you going to be using 2 coolers for your eHERMS? Thats shat i palne to do. if so, have you already installed an element in the cooler and have you taken any specific grounding precautions? I'm unsure exactly what should be different, if anything, with installing a heating element in the bottom of a cooler. I plan to install the element the same way kal did in the side of his stainless kettles.

Corey
 
I'm going to get another kettle, the only problem I have is that swmbo won't let me spend too much right now. It'll be a few more months before I can get the rest of my stuff
 
Santa delivered lots of good stuff yesterday from brewershardware, bargainfittings, and Morebeer. So much shiny stainless steal!

I'm reviewing my build plans to try and finalize my order for all the control panel parts. I have planned to order the auber enclosure which is 16x12x5.5. I think the height and width are perfect but my worry is about the depth. The PIDs are just under 4" deep and other items have a depth of 2"+ such as the circuit breakers. My question is do I need to get a deeper enclosure or will I be able to stagger things enough to make it work?

Thanks,
Corey
 
I have seen people on here use 6" deep ones and they said they are tight. I would suggest mapping out where you are going to put each it to make sure that they aren't going to cause a conflict. You may also want to wait until you have most of the parts to actually make sure they won't touch before you get the enclosure, though it may be tough since you are probably buying the pids from auber during the same shipment.

If you can get your terminal blocks behind the pids and put the circuit breakers and taller things behind the switches and lights you might be ok
 
Thanks. I think i'll take my chances with the Auber enclosure then. Ebay has a couple enclosures posted right now that are 16x12x8, that are decently priced but would end up being 50$+ more expensive overall.

I have another question about fuses. My plan is a 5 amp inline fuse prior to the Auber PIDs and timer. Would these products from radioshack fit the bill? I plan to have 14 gauge wiring running through the fuse then to the PIDs and timer if that matters.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102784
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103768

Thanks,

Corey
 
Thanks for the reply. I don't plan to wire each PID/timer with an individual fuse. Your saying one 1-amp fuse will cut it for all 3?

Corey
 
I use a 3amp fuse for my 3 PIDs, figuring that under full load they're doing their thing while still sending power to the SSR. Is the 5w rating just the PID itself, or does it also include the thruput power to the SSR?
 
I remember reading somewhere that auber recommends a 1 amp fuse for their PIDs. I went into their online manual to check and of course I couldn't find any specific recommendations. Most people use 3-5 amp fuses, but maybe 1 amp is all that is needed?
 
I used 1 2amp fuse for my 2 pids and timer, that was based on a p-j drawing. He's the man so I trust it should be enough
 
Thanks man ill go with the 2 amp then. I'm jealous that you got a P-J drawing. Its too bad we can't clone him so we can all be blessed with one of his masterpieces. I'll post my final updated wiring diagram later. I'd like to finalize my order this weekend.
 
Unfortunately the only way I can attach a decent quality diagram is through a pdf. Re-sizing my diagram as a bmp distorts it, and the jpeg is terrible for some reason.

So, my apologies in advance for the attachment method, but here is both the control panel face and the wiring diagram. They are both finalized to the best of my ability. I'm looking for any and all last minute critiques. The enclosure is the Auber 16x12x6. I have a march pump already and have ordered greatbreweh's pump but who knows when I will get that. I plan to source all my electrical stuff from mouser, ebrewsupply, auberins, amazon, home depot, and radioshack.

Thanks,

Corey

View attachment Final E-Herms Hop Rehab wiring diagram.pdf

View attachment Final Hop Rehab E-Herms Panel.pdf
 
I'm making my first of what will probably be many trips to Home Depot on Friday to pick up the breaker, wires, spa panel and receptacle. But first I have another question. My plan is to install a 240v 30 amp breaker and then run it to a spa panel for the GFCI protection.

I want to make sure i'm getting the right breaker. The brand of my breakers are square D, see picture below. When checking home depots products there are 2 options to choose from. One is a "QO 30 amp 2-pole" the other looks like a standard "30 amp 2-pole". There is only a small difference in price, about 7$. What is the QO load protection? Will they both work or does it matter which one I get? When looking in my panel there are 2 other 30 amp 2 pole breakers in my panel and they look to be of the QO load variety.

QO load
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...&productId=100022140&R=100022140#.UOTgHW_kjNs

Regular
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...rd=square+d+30+amp&storeId=10051#.UOThy2_kjNs

Thanks in advance,

Corey

photo.JPG
 
I'm not sure what the difference between the two are, but what I'd suggest doing is pulling the inner cover plate off and looking at how the breakers actually attach to the panel. If possible, pull one of the breakers and take it with you, because there are MANY different ways that a breaker will clip-in to a panel, and you want to make sure you get the right one. I took 3 different trips before I got the right one, but I didn't bring a breaker with me, I took crappy photos on my cell phone.
 
Back
Top