doing an extract Sierra Nevada Pale clone: bittering?

Going to do a partial boil, extract brew. Can't yet go full boil as I don't have the pot for it. Given that it's going to be half DME and half LME (plus a pound of caramel malt 40L steeped), I intended to boil most of the DME but add the LME late. This is going to greatly effect the hop addition schedule.

The recipe I have calls for Magnum for 60 min, Perle for 30, and then a couple late Cascade additions. However, by adding the LME late, that hop schedule gives me an IBU (in BeerAlchemy) of about 48. I change the Magnum and Perle times to 30 and 20 min, and then the IBU drops to 40 (SV site lists their Pale at 37 IBU).

My question is will the Magnum and Perle time changes change the hop flavor dramatically in addition to lowering the IBU.

It will drastically change how bitter the beer is if you are boiling magnum (14%aa+/-) for half of what the recipe calls for. If you're trying to make a sierra clone why would you change how bitter the beer is?

If you are trying to lower the IBUs, better I think to scale back the amounts, rather than change the timing of the additions.

did you change the boil size to partial? the boil size is going to effect isomerization much more than a late extract add (which actually has been shown to not effect utilization since its break material not OG that alters it)

But if it's an extract brew is there really any break material?

not usually, which is why its been shown that late adds dont actually effect utilization

Ok... I think I screwed up by entering everything for a partial boil and had my hop measurements off. SO I backed up, entered everything as if doing a full boil instead of a partial. Came up with only needing .25 oz of both the Magnum (60 min) and the Perle (30 min). Hit 37 IBU on the head. Now I'll adjust the process in BeerALchmey to go to a partial (3 gal boil) and see how I need to adjust the Magnum and Perle to maintain kep the IBU at 37

frazier said:

If you are trying to lower the IBUs, better I think to scale back the amounts, rather than change the timing of the additions.

Click to expand...

yup... not sure why I was looking at it the other way.

BTW, in BeerAlchemy, if I change the time of the addition of the 3.3 lb LME from end of boil to start of boil, it changes my IBU frmo 37 to 31 IBU. I intended to add the LME late, just using the DME for the full length of the boil (60 min).

It is compensating for the supposed drop in efficiency.

Double_D said:

It is compensating for the supposed drop in efficiency.

Click to expand...

Is that accurate/correct? I'll adjust the amounts of bittering hops if the adjustments the software is making can be trusted.

jimlin said:

Is that accurate/correct? I'll adjust the amounts of bittering hops if the adjustments the software is making can be trusted.

Click to expand...

not really. by default they usually use the tinsenth formula that includes OG as part of the formula. there are things related to OG that makes the calculation work well, but it doesnt translate as well with extract. check out this past thread if you want to read more about it: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f37/late-addition-hop-utilization-188394/#post2186025

Personally, I've never trusted any of the software. Too many people on here have such a wide variety of problems. Plus I went head to head with my buddy who was doing his math in beer smith or something on his iPhone and my numbers were identical. What else is there to do when watching a pot mash? But yeah things change in those programs based on partial/full mash, partial/ full boil, when you add adjuncts, all that..

dcp27 said:

not really. by default they usually use the tinsenth formula that includes OG as part of the formula. there are things related to OG that makes the calculation work well, but it doesnt translate as well with extract. check out this past thread if you want to read more about it: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f37/late-addition-hop-utilization-188394/#post2186025

Click to expand...

Thanks for that link. So if the late addition in fact does NOT effect the hop utilization as may have been built into these apps, I can simply base my hop amounts on the numbers from listing the LME as being in full boil, even if it's a late addition

pretty much.

good question. I know in one of those links by SumnerH that there is an experiment that has extract added 3 different ways and all 3 had nearly identical IBUs. which calculated amount landed closest to the actual amount I can't recall. either way, you wont be able to perceive the 6IBU difference you listed.
also, IBUs are more relative than anything. just pick one way to go about it and stick with it for future comparison

thanks all. glad I'm asking the questions AHEAD of time.
I'll likely use partial boil (3 gal) and enter both the DME and LME as being in from the start of the boil to get my hop numbers. I'll then do the boil with the DME and add the LME late or possibly even at flameout.

Ok, got about 3 cases in bottles conditioning. A MrBeer (2 gal) Hop Head Red (with DME in place of booster), which needs at least another month, probably more; 5 gal batch of amber (extract and some 135L caramel steeped) which needs a few weeks at least; and another MrBeer... an IPA that I just bottled which will need a lot of time to condition. Nothing in the fermenter so I'm thinking next weekend I'll brew the Sierra PA clone (extract plus Crystal 40L). Wife's away skiing next weekend with girlfriends, and I've got the kids... gotta make use of the time!