Oh oh...got a lager beer kit for Christmas

My sweetie got me the Wurzberger Maibock extract kit and White Labs WPL830 vial for Christmas. Sounds pretty good, but it's a lager and so far I've only brewed ales.

The instructions seem pretty straight forward but I don't have any place at 36-45F for the lagering/conditioning. My unfinished basement is currently about 56F near the floor.

What now about the temperature?

Also, SG is 1.065 expected FG is 1.013. Must I do a starter for a 5gal batch?

It's her fault that you now need to have a lagering chamber.

Rick

Yes, you must do a starter. A HUGE starter.

Then ferment as close to 50 degrees as you can. I use a cooler with a water bath for my fermenter, and add frozen water bottles as needed to keep it at 50 degrees.

After that, you don't really need to lager until bottling. You can bottle the beer, let it carb up, and then lager it in the bottle wherever you can. Fridge temps are ideal, but you may find a cold spot somewhere else if you look.

f250 said:

it's her fault that you now need to have a lagering chamber.

rick

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Hmmm...?

Yooper said:

Yes, you must do a starter. A HUGE starter.

Click to expand...

Any thoughts about why White Labs says the vial by itself is good for five gallons (under 1.070), but a pitch calculator says as high as ~7 liters for starter?

Seems like a rather huge disparity in suggested practice. What happens if you use just the vial or a smaller starter? Under-attenuation or just a really long ferment time or?

whoaru99 said:

Any thoughts about why White Labs says the vial by itself is good for five gallons (under 1.070), but a pitch calculator says as high as ~7 liters for starter?

Seems like a rather huge disparity in suggested practice. What happens if you use just the vial or a smaller starter? Under-attenuation or just a really long ferment time or?

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Whoaru,

No offense, but make a starter. It's really not that difficult. Go to the LHBS, buy a pound of DME for $4, find a mason jar or Flask around the house, make up a 1.040 solution with water that fills the mason jar half full, and pitch the yeast. Cover the jar with foam or something to prevent microbes (critical). Let the yeast go to work. Takes fifteen minutes and costs five bucks. This isn't the best way to go about it, but the easiest for someone who has no interest/equipment in starters.

As a microbiologist, I'll try to explain this. There's different rates of pitching. Wyeast, at least, suggests one million yeast cells per mL per degree Plato. (1.060 is 15 P, Plato is a measure of sugar levels) When you pitch at this rate in ales, the cells need to replicate many times, which creates more esters, meaning more yeast flavors. If it's a Belgian beer, that could be good, if it's a cream ale, that's probably bad. Along with other factors, the less yeast cells you pitch, the more off-flavors you'll get. Mr. Malty is calculating that formula to 6 or 12 million per mL per Plato, which means you're going to get a faster ferment, less off-flavors, less chances of under-attenuation, etc, etc. There's the differential.

In lagers, you are fermenting cool, and looking for a very crisp, clean beer, so you need to pitch much more cells. I think WL/Wyeast only suggests like 2 or 3 million per mL per Plato, while Mr.Malty suggests like 12 or 18 million per mL per Plato. I was listening to an interview of White Labs people this summer so those company numbers may be slightly off.


The walkaway is the yeast companies are trying to offer a good product but selling a liter of yeast is impracticable. At least in most ales, you can get away with just pitching the vial and have a solid beer. You want to make a decent lager or a great ale, you gotta do a starter. You can really control how your beer tastes by your pitching rate, most pro brewers will acknowledge it's one of the most important factors in brewing, perhaps even more then your malt bill or hop schedule.

Good video if you are interested.



-TF

Yup her fault.....gotta go out and get more equipment. Heres what you need, an 19.5 cu ft freezer less fridge or chest freezer, one of those temp controls from northern brewer, and If you don't have a Stainless conical ....you'll need one (Or at least tell HER that)

not trying to encourage or anything but....

http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/...on-controls-a419-digital-temp-controller.html

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...roductId=203547584&R=203547584#specifications

That would certainly help! A freezer with temp control would be nice, but also....
http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/brewing/brewing-equipment/the-vortex-stir-plate.html

You could also use a neutral ale yeast like 1056, wlp001 or US-05 and ferment at ale temps.

Thanks. No offense taken. Not opposed to making a starter (well, maybe slightly opposed to a 7L starter due to equipment on hand).

I do, however, have on hand a a 2L Erlenmeyer and a pound of golden light DME. No stir plate though.

OK, so it's established I'm doing a starter. But, again considering the disparity, is using a 1-1.25L starter merely pissing in the wind?

Further, considering it's a five gallon batch, if I did use a 7L starter that'd mean I'd basically boil to end at just over 3 gallons because I'd have near 2 gal in a starter?

Try this: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Anchor-Hocking-Cracker-Jar-with-Lid/16520333. Using stepped starters, it should work fine. As for the volume question, no. You decant off the starter beer, retaining only the yeast. On the final starter, simply retain enough liquid to get the yeast back into solution.

whoaru99 said:

Thanks. No offense taken. Not opposed to making a starter (well, maybe slightly opposed to a 7L starter due to equipment on hand).

I do, however, have on hand a a 2L Erlenmeyer and a pound of golden light DME. No stir plate though.

OK, so it's established I'm doing a starter. But, again considering the disparity, is using a 1-1.25L starter merely pissing in the wind?

Further, considering it's a five gallon batch, if I did use a 7L starter that'd mean I'd basically boil to end at just over 3 gallons because I'd have near 2 gal in a starter?

Click to expand...

You chill the starter a few days before brewday (or longer), as it takes a while for lager yeast to fall out. Then decant the spent wort, and just use the yeast with a tiny bit of the spent wort (so you can swirl it up).

Use the yeast cold, out of the fridge for about 1/2 hour, and pitch it into cooled (48 degree) wort. You want both to be under 50 degrees ideally when you pitch the yeast, and then let it warm to 50 degrees after pitching.

Ahhh....I see that makes more sense now. Thanks again!

Hopefully I'm on the right track to brew this next weekend.

Pitched the vial into the first level starter (~1.5L @ ~ 1.030) then I'll pitch that into the step up ~7-8L @ ~1.030. Found a 3gal better-bottle type bottle so that should work good for the step up. Hopefully all that'll be done by early/mid week so it can fall out by brew day est. next Saturday.

Far as the starters go, room temp (67F) is OK?

Temp. control for freezer should be here on Monday.

All sound about right so far?

Yes, all starters can be done at room temp.

This is about 32hrs later, having never done one, does this look like it's about finished and I should go to second stage of starter?

Never did see much for krausen, but then again I shook/mixed it every so often during the day.

As a reminder, it's White Labs vial WPL830, if that matters.

That layer at the bottom is your yeast. You need to chuck that bad boy in the frige for 2 or 3 days until the rest of the yeast floculates out, then pour the clearish starter beer off and pitch the starter slurrey into your beer.

I know pitching rate calculators are debated here ad nauseum. I have yet tpo calculate a pitching rate, but that's just how I roll. I keep several tubes of harvested yeast in the frirge. When I'm ready to make up a batch, I pour off half the starter beer from the tube and then warm it up while I'm preparing the starter wort. 4 cups water to 1 cup DME, boiled and cooled to 75F or so. Cover mouth of flask with foil squirted inside with starsan. Stir plate until the krausen falls, and cold crash 2-3 days, decant and set out on counter to warm at thye beginning of rhe brew day. FYI, If I was brewing this saturday, I would have begun my starter this past Monday.

IMHO your flask is way too full. I have a 2L and my starter comes up to just under 1L. Some yeasts throw more krausen than others, but I've had a few that crawl out of the top of my flask and start partying on the stir plate. Lager yeasts are calm but some ale yeasts are not. At least with 1 L head space you will have smaller messes to clean up.

Thanks. The yeast calculators call for ~7L starter so this is going to go into a yet larger one.

Do you think I'm good to go right now pitching this whole thing into 7L more of fresh starter wort (in a 3gal jug), for brew day projected for this coming Saturday?

whoaru99 said:

Thanks. The yeast calculators call for ~7L starter so this is going to go into a yet larger one.

Do you think I'm good to go right now pitching this whole thing into 7L more of fresh starter wort (in a 3gal jug), for brew day projected for this coming Saturday?

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Yes. You don't want to decant, because you have a ton of yeast in suspension. Pitching the whole thing into the rest of the starter would work great!

Well, the level in the jug is a bit higher than I was expecting, I suppose due to the handle recess, so hopefully it doesn't go too nuts. At least the plastic tub will limit the mess if it does.

It's getting near 72 hours since I pitched the slurry from ~7L starter. Slurry was ~50F, wort was ~49F at the time of pitch.

I'm using a 3-piece airlock and the inner cup has raised almost to the point of venting, but there is no regular bubbling of the airlock. How long do I wait before I take any more action besides hoping and praying it's fermenting properly (adequately?)?

whoaru99 said:

It's getting near 72 hours since I pitched the slurry from ~7L starter. Slurry was ~50F, wort was ~49F at the time of pitch.

I'm using a 3-piece airlock and the inner cup has raised almost to the point of venting, but there is no regular bubbling of the airlock. How long do I wait before I take any more action besides hoping and praying it's fermenting properly (adequately?)?

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Ther are many reasons why the airlock is not bubbling. Most likely the lid is allowing a small amount of pressure to vent. No bubbles does NOT mean no activity. If you must confirm, take periodic gravity readings. SG drop is the only reliable way to verify fermentation is in progress.

Couldn't stand the suspense so just a few minutes ago I drew a sample and tested the SG. It is 1.037 down from 1.061 so there is something meaningful happening.

Factors out to be half way to target FG after roughly 96 hours. Whew...I can breathe a bit easier now.

EDIT: Looks like it might even be a bit further along. As the sample warms there are lots of bubbles coming out of suspension and the SG reading seems to be dropping a few points.