Noobs High Grav Attempt - Pointers?

Hi Guys,

I've got one brew in the primary, one in bottles conditioning and one in bottles for drinking. That's the limit of my experience with homebrew.

With my homebrew kit I received a can of 'Lager' extract that I'm not likely to ever use. (It's liquid extract, but can you use the term 'LME' for hopped extracts?)

Anyway, I was planning on throwing the contents in with my next brew. I've only brewed ales, and I'm sticking with that for now, so I won't be using the lager yeast that came with it, just the extract. Since I usually throw in raw sugar as well, I figured that I'd use the opportunity to brew a high grav brew.

Why? Mostly for the experience, I'm a bit of a mad scientist (I'm also going to do a Low ABV sugar wash with different yeasts just to experiment with yeast flavours).

Also, I'm not averse to a bit of boozing, so the high alcohol content sounds appealing (obviously not a session beer).

It's going to look fairly close to this, depending on suggestions.

(3.85Lb) 1.75kg - 'Lager' Liquid Extract
(3.85Lb) 1.75kg - Coopers Australian Pale Ale Liquid Extract
(4.4lb) 2kg - Raw Sugar

OG 1078?
AVB 7.8%?
(brewcalculus)

First question: Yeast
Buy an extra packet (or three) of ale yeast, rehydrate and pitch.
OR
Champagne Yeast

My major concern is that I'm pretty sure brewcalculus only factors %75 attenuation for the yeast, even when fermenting simple sugars. As such, the alcohol content may be too high and may kill off the ale yeast. I need to have enough vigour left in the yeast to ensure that they carb my bottles properly.

So help with the yeast would be great, but any other suggestions would also be greatly appreciated.

throw 2 packets of rehydrated nottingham in there. It's such a monster it'll eat that up better than anything else i've used. It's also a really clean fermenting strain inside it's temp range so all around pretty awesome

Sounds perfect.

throwing your numbers into hopville, i'm getting:

% LB OZ Malt or Fermentable
35% 4 3 Sugar, Table (Sucrose)
32% 3 14 Cooper's Australian Pale Ale
32% 3 14 Coopers Lager

Original Gravity 1.091
8.8-9.1% ABV (depends on the strain chosen)

35% sugar is really high. expect a less than pleasant cidery taste. i'd cut back sugar to the 20-25% range.

champagne yeast can't digest maltose and other more complex sugars, so it you use it to ferment this brew you won't get all the attenuation (read: alcohol) you're probably looking for.

have you considered adding some steeping grains to make this brew a tad more interesting?

what will you be doing for hops? what kind, when and how much?

Hi sweetcell,

I'm a total noob so I don't really have any experience in anything other that extracts (Incl. grains and hops).

I could definately add some grains, this isn't exactly a real style of beer so i wouldn't know where to start. Suggestions?

The extracts in australia are usually hopped, though I think I will have to add some more for something this strong, in order to balance it a bit. I like the idea of dry hopping into the primary after attenuation has slowed down. Mostly because I'm lazy and it sounds easy and also because I like IPAs. I don't mind bitter, but I prefer flavour.

Again, I can boil water, so if you have suggestions about how to tackle this, (bitters vs aromatics, boiling /dryhopping, hop types etc) I'm open. I'll probably just see what they have at the LHBS.

Speaking of IPAs (we were, trust me) I just put on an IPA kit (Coopers special) and it's terrible. Still at 110 but there's no way it's going to be as tasty as it's supposed to be. It would have needed two kits and a pant load of hops. Maybe once some more sugar ferments out the hops will come through, but at the moment it tastes like any other basic ale kit.

Oh wait, there was more....

I'm confused about the attenuation thing. Won't the unfermented complex sugars (RE Champagne) help to balance the cidery taste from the sugar?

Also, raw sugar has slightly different composition to table sugar, but that probably doesn't affect the calcs much, it does affect the taste though. Gives it a richer, more caramel taste.

I'm not looking for a particulary high alcohol beer, I've just got a spare kit and figured it would be a good way to use it. I'm happy to drop a kilo of sugar out of the mix in order to have something more drinkable.

I'd probably prefer to use an ale yeast anyway, I just want to be sure that it will have enough vigor to carb my bottles at high alc.

ZenGeek said:

Hi sweetcell,

I'm a total noob so I don't really have any experience in anything other that extracts (Incl. grains and hops).

I could definately add some grains, this isn't exactly a real style of beer so i wouldn't know where to start. Suggestions?

The extracts in australia are usually hopped, though I think I will have to add some more for something this strong, in order to balance it a bit. I like the idea of dry hopping into the primary after attenuation has slowed down. Mostly because I'm lazy and it sounds easy and also because I like IPAs. I don't mind bitter, but I prefer flavour.

Again, I can boil water, so if you have suggestions about how to tackle this, (bitters vs aromatics, boiling /dryhopping, hop types etc) I'm open. I'll probably just see what they have at the LHBS.

Click to expand...

grains: since you're new to this, i would suggest sticking with "crystal" grains that only need to be steeped, like tea. HBT's wiki is a good source for learning about them: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Category:Crystal_and_caramel_malt

be aware that dry-hopping adds mostly aroma. it only contributes marginally to taste, and provides no bitterness. if you want bitterness, you need to boil the hops in your wort for at least 30 mins, with 60 being better. for flavor, add hops with 10 to 15 minutes left in the boil. for aroma, add when there is less than 5 minutes left (you can even add the aroma hops as you turn off the heat, called "flame-out").

as to choice of hops... well, that would be like telling you what beer to drink! all depends on what you like. cascade is the typical aroma and flavoring hop for american IPAs, if that's your thing. there are some new hops that are worth checking out, IMO, such as citra, amarillo and simcoe (dunno if those are available down under, certainly hope so for your sake).

ZenGeek said:

Oh wait, there was more....

I'm confused about the attenuation thing. Won't the unfermented complex sugars (RE Champagne) help to balance the cidery taste from the sugar?

Also, raw sugar has slightly different composition to table sugar, but that probably doesn't affect the calcs much, it does affect the taste though. Gives it a richer, more caramel taste.

I'm not looking for a particulary high alcohol beer, I've just got a spare kit and figured it would be a good way to use it. I'm happy to drop a kilo of sugar out of the mix in order to have something more drinkable.

I'd probably prefer to use an ale yeast anyway, I just want to be sure that it will have enough vigor to carb my bottles at high alc.

Click to expand...

champagne yeast, on its own, will leave too many unfermented sugars behind. the brew won't be well balanced - you'll have harsh alcohol from all that sugar with cloying sweetness from the maltose. it'll be a mess.

i wouldn't expect too much flavor contribution from the raw sugar, given all the flavors in the LME and the alcohol. certainly can't hurt to try, and it'll be somewhere back there, but don't expect strong molasses flavors. use of darker crytal malts can help in that department.

i would definitely drop some of that sugar, losing a kilo sounds about right - would put it at 22% of the fermentables, 1.068 OG, ~6.7% ABV (assuming a 5 gallon/18.9 L batch). sounds lovely!

Thanks again sweetcell.

I Just read the partial grain section of 'how to brew' for a bit more info. I may as well have a go, this is basically one giant experiment brew anyway. Crystal sounds perfect.

I do like the taste and aroma of hops, if I'm going to be fmucking around with this brew anyway I may as well try out something that I think I will enjoy. I think there will be enough bitterness in the extract to leave it as is for this experiment. I'll either dry hop, boil for 15 or both to get some flavour and aroma (i didn't realise these were different things with brewing...).

Thanks for the hop suggestion as well.

I also noticed today that the recipes on the tins call for 23L of water in total, which is just over 6 Gallons.... that, with one can of extract and a kilo of dextrose (the recommended recipe for most) makes a very basic beer. I only mention it as most recipes (and you) assume a 5 Gal brew.

ZenGeek said:

I'll either dry hop, boil for 15 or both to get some flavour and aroma (i didn't realise these were different things with brewing...).

Click to expand...

well, smell and taste are indeed closely related (smells influence taste, tastes in the mouth can migrate up to the nasal passages and create smells, someone with a blocked nose can't taste very much, etc). you can use two different hops for aroma and taste and get some very interesting outcomes - taste isn't exactly what you expect based on the smell. you'll not that in beer reviews, the reviewers always describe aroma and taste separately. sometimes they are the same, sometimes they're different.

ZenGeek said:

I also noticed today that the recipes on the tins call for 23L of water in total, which is just over 6 Gallons.... that, with one can of extract and a kilo of dextrose (the recommended recipe for most) makes a very basic beer. I only mention it as most recipes (and you) assume a 5 Gal brew.

Click to expand...

oh, wait, adding the sugar is part of the recipe? i thought you were adding sugar above and beyond what is usually called for (i.e., none). i've never used kits, so i've never used cans that call for additional sugar. the only extracts that i've used contained sufficient sugar so no additional was needed... one adds sugar to boost the alcohol level beyond "normal" levels.

if i now understand correctly, it sounds like your cans only contain flavoring and the sugar is needed to create the alcohol. so if your cans call for sugar, then you should add the normal amount - or maybe even more if you want to boost alcohol above normal levels. apologies if i've misled you there. that would explain why champagne yeast would work in your case - you're only fermenting simple sugars.

as a next step, i'd suggest moving away from these "sugar needed" kits and getting regular extract that doesn't call for sugar because it contains sufficient maltose. as you may have noticed, most extract-based recipes don't call for additional sugar.

sweetcell said:

well, smell and taste are indeed closely related (smells influence taste, tastes in the mouth can migrate up to the nasal passages and create smells, someone with a blocked nose can't taste very much, etc). you can use two different hops for aroma and taste and get some very interesting outcomes - taste isn't exactly what you expect based on the smell. you'll not that in beer reviews, the reviewers always describe aroma and taste separately. sometimes they are the same, sometimes they're different.

Click to expand...

That's really interesting. I'm going to have to start paying more attention to beer reviews. A friend of mine asked me for 'tasting notes' regarding my first batch. I said 'dark ale'.

oh, wait, adding the sugar is part of the recipe? i thought you were adding sugar above and beyond what is usually called for (i.e., none). i've never used kits, so i've never used cans that call for additional sugar. the only extracts that i've used contained sufficient sugar so no additional was needed... one adds sugar to boost the alcohol level beyond "normal" levels.

if i now understand correctly, it sounds like your cans only contain flavoring and the sugar is needed to create the alcohol. so if your cans call for sugar, then you should add the normal amount - or maybe even more if you want to boost alcohol above normal levels. apologies if i've misled you there. that would explain why champagne yeast would work in your case - you're only fermenting simple sugars.

as a next step, i'd suggest moving away from these "sugar needed" kits and getting regular extract that doesn't call for sugar because it contains sufficient maltose. as you may have noticed, most extract-based recipes don't call for additional sugar.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure why, but most kits in australia are 1.7kg of malt extract (not just flavour) and reccomend adding up to a kilo of sugar depending on the recipe. This is probably just to make it cheaper than buying two kits.

I just checked a recipe calulator and one 1.7kg can ($13-17 for a basic) gives an OG of 1.026 and ABV of 2.7%. No-one would ever drink that right? So instead of making you buy an extra can, they tell you to add dextrose. This is one of the (many) things that makes many people in the Homebrew world highly critical of 'off the tin' recipes.

ZenGeek said:

That's really interesting. I'm going to have to start paying more attention to beer reviews. A friend of mine asked me for 'tasting notes' regarding my first batch. I said 'dark ale'.

Click to expand...

a typical beer review covers: appearance/color (including head), aroma/smell, taste & mouthfeel (sometimes together, sometimes separate), and "overall" (AKA drinkability). my favorite beer review site is beeradvocate, check out some reviews: http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/22/34, http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/147/1160.

ZenGeek said:

I'm not sure why, but most kits in australia are 1.7kg of malt extract (not just flavour) and reccomend adding up to a kilo of sugar depending on the recipe. This is probably just to make it cheaper than buying two kits.

I just checked a recipe calulator and one 1.7kg can ($13-17 for a basic) gives an OG of 1.026 and ABV of 2.7%. No-one would ever drink that right? So instead of making you buy an extra can, they tell you to add dextrose. This is one of the (many) things that makes many people in the Homebrew world highly critical of 'off the tin' recipes.

Click to expand...

recipes typically peak at 20% sugar, and that's the high end for specific styles that call for it like belgian tripels. if i remember correctly, the Complete Joy of Brewing recommends a maximum of 30% sugar otherwise your beer may take on a cider-y taste. to my taste buds, some sugar can help dry out a beer and make it fit a style. but 40% sugar, as 1 kilo out of 2.7 approaches, falls into the realm of cheap alcohol. we're getting into paint-thinner territory. one could ferment a brew made out of 100% sugar and you'd get an alcoholic beverage, but it would be gross.

those tin-recipe kits have two great advantages: one, they're easy; and two, they're relatively cheap. using sugar in this fashion definitely helps keep thing cheap. if you want to brew a better beer, in the short term you'll need to spend a little more money.

whenever you're ready to take the next step, i'd recommend that you get "off the tin". if possible/practical, i'd suggest that you get into extract brewing that doesn't call for sugar. through the magic of the googles, i see that you have at least one local homebrew supply shop (LHBS) in your city. based on their website their selection is a tad limited but they do sell "non-recipe" extract (like this). using 2 kilos of that and a half kilo of sugar will yield a much nicer beer, IMO. and then you can start adding some steeping grains. then move on to partial mashes. and before you know it you're brewing all grain. "non-tin" extract brewing may be more expensive than tin recipes, but the quality will be noticeably better. by the time you make it to all-grain brewing, you'll be at a similar price-point as where you started from - but with beer that is much, much better.

however, i've used any can-plus-sugar recipe tins - maybe someone with more experience in this department could chime in with their experience?

Time for an Update.

I went with both tins (7.5lb) and one kg (2.2lb) of raw sugar in 23L (6Gal).

Added about 1/4 Oz of Amarillo and 1/2 Oz Cascade for 5mins. (both tins are hopped so I thought I'd start small)

Going to add another 1/4 of Amarillo (all I have left) and a little over 1Oz of Cascade after fermentation settles down. I'll check the taste before I add as I'm not sure it will be necessary to add the whole Oz of cascade.

1 pack S04
1 pack Coopers ale yeast
rehydrated together

1 pack brigalow ale yeast boiled for nutirents.

I thought my OG was 1085+ but I've checked the calcs and it's not even possible, must have read it wrong... Anyway, It was down to 1035 after 2 days. Calcs expect 1015ish.

I'm also thinking of moving towards unhopped extracts and building recipies from there. I'll probably get LDME online rather than LHBS, they're geared up for tin brewers and spirit making, I go in there quite a bit. Hops are great from craftbrewer online, Yeast is probably the only thing I'll end up getting from LHBS as I don't really trust whoever's shipping it if you order online.

Probably only do a few more extracts and then move on to something like maxiBIAB