Troublesome ferment with costco honey

Alright, so let me start off by saying that this is my second attempt with costco clover honey; the first attempt was an abysmal failure that had hardly fermented at all after a few months and eventually went sour. I ended up dumping that batch. Because of the ill results of my first batch I set out to ensure my current batch has a strong, fast ferment - which unfortunately is not the case.

I started this batch on 12/12 using 10 pounds of costco clover honey, 5 gallons of arrowhead spring water, 2 tsp of yeast energizer, 2 tsp of yeast nutrient, and a packet of Lalvin 71B-1122. I prepared a small starter for the yeast a few hours in advance, I mixed all the ingredients, I aerated the must heavily using a power drill with a mixer attachment, and then I pitched the yeast. The starting gravity was 1.06, which is exactly what I was going for, my goal for this batch is to get a nice light mead which I'm going to backsweeten after.

Signs of fermentation were noticeable within 24 hours, but by the second day I was distraught by how sluggish the yeast seemed to be going. I decided to go to the homebrew store to get some PH strips to ensure there wasn't a PH problem, which it shouldn't be, as the PH is above 4.4. After another day I aerated again, pitched another packet of Lalvin 71B-1122 and moved the carboy into my room where it's warmer (between 65-75f). By 12/16 since the fermentation still seemed to be going quite slow and the gravity had hardly changed I started to wonder if maybe the yeast just didn't have enough nutrients, so I added another 2tsp nutrients and energizer. And finally on 12/17 I aerated the must again and tried pitching a packet of Lalvin K1V-1116 to see if that would help out at all.

Now it's 12/19, it's been a week and the must has almost gone down to 1.05, which to me just seems abysmally slow. So, anyone have any suggestions for me or criticisms on my procedure?

How about get some real honey from a beekeeper? You dont mention how warm you are keeping this? WVMJ

I wish I had that option, but I don't know any beekeepers personally, and I've called around to all the local apiaries but none of them are selling bulk honey, and all of their prices are exorbitant. The temperature's between 65-75f as I mentioned in the original post.

I use annas honey, a quick search brings up the site. If you want GOOD honey you will have to pay for it. Unless you know somebody local or have friend in the business. Just like good wine starts on the vine, so good Meade starts from the honey. I guess that applies to anything of quality, if you want it to taste good only the best ingredients should be used. Poor quality will only get you second rate results in anything you want to make.

Hey Dl, I say don't listen to these people.... yet...... You already got the costco honey and are under way so lets get this mead going and complete and you can see for yourself the quality. I just say do not judge all meads off of this one. You will learn a lot here and will get an idea to how meads are. When you feel ready & more comfortable I am sure you will want to get some nice orange blossom, wild flower, buckwheat or whatever nice raw honeys to experiment with.

Honey is famous for being really low in nutrients. And that is for Raw honeys, not the highly processed, heated & filtered honey you get from costco; it is even worse for that. So nutrients are important. I usually go with 1tsp per gallon yeast nutrient and 1/2 tsp per gallon yeast energizer. I actually put in like 1tsp of yeast energizer up front and step feed the rest 1/2tsp at a time over a period of the first few days.

If you have experience in Beer or wine making and are used to the yeast schedules with them then throw out that rule book. Meads are a test of paitience. I have a ginger mead with very little ginger in it and K1-V1116 yeast pitched and it is nearly 3 months in and still bubbling slowly. Fermentation may not finish on it for another month or so. De-Gas this puppy well and check gravity readings over the next week and see if it is dropping. If it is at all then leave it alone. You are in for a long trip. Dont be surprised if it takes 4 - 6 months to finish out. Since you started with 71B and it was the main active yeast it probably killed the 1116 yeast you added. As long as there is some fermentation here in about a month and half to two months if you notice 1/4 - 1/2 inch of lees then rack into a new container. Just keep the must off of lees that build up over 1/4 - 1/2 inch because 71b has issues with the must sitting on setled yeast for too long.

Let us know how it goes over the next week. If the gravity does not change at all then there are other things that can be done to properly re-start this puppy.

I'm sorry, Arpolis, you are right. The ferment that is going is always the important one...and your right.it would probabably be the nutrient issue. Feed the yeasties and watch, wait. Check...patience. it doesn't seem to matter whether its beer or wine, they don't run a schedule, they are done when they wanna be despite our efforts. Often you can get an average with each recipe but the final drinkable product can take weeks(even months) with some beers to years with some wines or meades.

Just a note, and I'm not sure of exact numbers, but you probably won't get much O2 from a lees stirrer in a 5gal batch. Even using a sanitized spoon vigorously would probably put in more ppm. In the future, think about at the very least using an aquarium bubbler (available as a rather cheap kit from many homebrew websites).

Thanks for the great advice Arpolis, I guess for now I'll just have to be patient and see how it goes.

DI Pfc and Arpolis, not trying to be negative but you did ask for opinions. How close are you to this place? If I lived close to this place I would go get some Meadowfoam honey and use that before even thinking about costco honey. The honey prices in Sacramento are not outrageous, 4$ pound for real honey is what they charge retail here in the midatlantic also. Of course you can always find someone with cheaper and much more expensive honey.

http://www.sacramentobeekeeping.com/honeyprices.php
MIXED FLOWER HONEYS
(honey from a particular area or a mix of floral sources)
SACRAMENTO AREA LOCAL WILDFLOWER (often used for allergies) DARK AMBER MIX (strong flavor)
$4.00 PER LB., PLUS PRICE OF CONTAINER OR IN YOUR CONTAINER
SINGLE FLOWER HONEYS
1 lb. $5.95 2 lb. $10.95 3 lb. $15.95 4 lb. $23..95
FOR LARGER SIZES - $5.00 PER LB., PLUS PRICE OF CONTAINER
AVAILABLE HONEY FLAVORS (SUBJECT TO CHANGE)
Orange Blossom (not a blend, definite orange taste),
Clover (sweet, smooth, familiar),
Blackberry (light color, slight berry taste),
Buckwheat (dark amber, flavorfull),
Alfalfa (dark variety)
Raspberry (light, smooth, unusual),
Star Thistle (light-only good thing about this weed!),
Sage (light, mild, does not crystalize),
Avocado/Orange mix (dark amber, deep flavor)
Meadowfoam (marshmellow/vanilla taste)
SPECIALTY HONEYS
Honey in the comb: $19.00 / lb. Creamed honey, 3/4 lb: $5.95, 1 1/2 lbs: $10.95
Shipping will be added to the honey order.
We ship UPS and take all Credit Cards
SACRAMENTO BEEKEEPING SUPPLIES
2110 X Street
Sacramento CA, 95818
Phone (916) 451-2337 Fax (916) 451-7008

10 AM - 5:30 PM, Tuesday through Saturday
Closed: Sunday and Monday

Wow y'all pay a lot. 2.72 a # here in Ok. 12 lbs aka 1 gallon 36-38$

DI,

Some additional data. I have been using Sams Sue Bee Clover honey for the last three 5 gal melomel batches and have been refining my SNA that is approaching the one described by Arpolis. I haven't been using as much nutrient/energizer, but have been staggering it over a number of the initial days. Arpolis makes a good point about the extreme lack of nutrients in the ultra filtered honey sold by Costco/Sams and I will up my amounts on the next batch if I'm still using Sams Honey. So far, I have had good initial fermentation, but I also see continued fermentation during subsequent monthly rackings on top of additional honey.

I'm also looking at honey suppliers like eBee (http://www.ebeehoney.com), Bee-Pure Honey (http://www.beepurehoney.com), and Ebert Honey (http://www.eberthoney.com). You should be able to find a supplier that could get the price down to below $4/lb when buying 12 lbs or more.

Keep us updated on the progress.

So you pitched a 14% tolerance yeast into a must with a LOW OG (for mead, 1.06 is extremely low)?? Also, nutrient amounts are typically 1/2 tsp of yeast energizer per gallon of must, and/or 1 tsp of nutrient (fermaid/fermax) per gallon. Adding an 18% tolerant yeast won't do you much good since you had a LOT OG must to begin with. Also, if you only aerated once, you didn't do nearly enough. Also you only degas/aerate until you hit the 1/3 break...

I would suggest going voer to the Got Mead? forums and read up there. Instead of stabbing in the dark to try and get something worth bottling. You REALLY need to get your process down before you mix up another batch.

As for getting honey, start looking around for good apiaries in your area. I find it hard to believe there are none within driving distance of you. Check the LHBS scene too. I got my last [5 gallon] bucket from the LHBS in Marlboro, MA (wildflower honey that was local to them, really good stuff). Came out to $2.75/# that way. :rockin: Check with HBC's in your area to see if they know of brewer friendly apiaries.

Also try the Honey Locator to see if there are any in that db close.

http://www.honeylocator.com/

By the gallon it runs 40$, 5 gal 150$, tulip poplar, locust and wildflower mostly. Its why I got my own hives, hoping to get enough to make those traditionals that take years to age and not be short on mead to drink WVMJ

scottv said:

Wow y'all pay a lot. 2.72 a # here in Ok. 12 lbs aka 1 gallon 36-38$

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scottv said:

Wow y'all pay a lot. 2.72 a # here in Ok. 12 lbs aka 1 gallon 36-38$

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psst, $36/gallon is $3/# there hoss... $38/gallon comes out to #3.16/#

I like my $2.75/# for really GREAT wildflower honey. Seriously the stuff tastes amazing. Great color (nice and dark) too. Just need to give it enough time to become great, which is about 2+ years for <18% ABV... :cross:

You're in the middle of California's Great Valley, AKA the Beekeeping Center of the (almond-dominated) Universe! Gotta be some honey around. If you want Montana honey or just want to make sure my niece gets every christmas present she asked for try out glaciercountyhoney.com 12 or 35 lb buckets

hillhousesawdustco said:

You're in the middle of California's Great Valley, AKA the Beekeeping Center of the (almond-dominated) Universe! Gotta be some honey around. If you want Montana honey or just want to make sure my niece gets every christmas present she asked for try out glaciercountyhoney.com 12 or 35 lb buckets

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Stuff looks pretty light in color to me... Mid season harvest?? I really like the late season harvests.

Update for anyone interested: I just aerated/degassed again today and checked the gravity while I was at it, and it looks like it's dropped to 1.04 so it's definitely fermenting, just slowly. I don't mind a slow ferment, I was just worried that it would completely cease up like my last attempt with costco honey. I'll be sure to update once it eventually finishes too.

Golddiggie said:

So you pitched a 14% tolerance yeast into a must with a LOW OG (for mead, 1.06 is extremely low)?? Also, nutrient amounts are typically 1/2 tsp of yeast energizer per gallon of must, and/or 1 tsp of nutrient (fermaid/fermax) per gallon. Adding an 18% tolerant yeast won't do you much good since you had a LOT OG must to begin with. Also, if you only aerated once, you didn't do nearly enough. Also you only degas/aerate until you hit the 1/3 break...

I would suggest going voer to the Got Mead? forums and read up there. Instead of stabbing in the dark to try and get something worth bottling. You REALLY need to get your process down before you mix up another batch.

As for getting honey, start looking around for good apiaries in your area. I find it hard to believe there are none within driving distance of you. Check the LHBS scene too. I got my last [5 gallon] bucket from the LHBS in Marlboro, MA (wildflower honey that was local to them, really good stuff). Came out to $2.75/# that way. :rockin: Check with HBC's in your area to see if they know of brewer friendly apiaries.

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Yes sir, that's correct. I'd say my process fairs pretty well most of the time, but as a poor college student trying to make a budget batch of mead I decided to give the cheapest honey I could find a go, and I have to say it's definitely been my most challenging batch so far, but as long as the flavor's decent in the end I'll be a happy camper.

I think for my next batch I'll definitely check around at all the local apiaries again, but my problem last time was that they either didn't sell bulk honey or it was out of my price range.

IME, very rarely (not impossible, just not very likely) does cheap honey provide something really good/pleasing in the glass. Even less so when you make several wrong turns along the way. If you're going to invest the time to make a really good mead, then use quality ingredients. The ONLY time I would even consider using cheap honey is when the flavors is has will be covered up by others. Even then, you're better off with something with good flavors since (oh so often) traces will still come through in the end.

I stumbled across this thread and it caught my interest as I recently started a batch of Costco mead.

I'm an avid beer and wine maker but a complete rookie when it comes to mead.

While strolling the eils of Costco I can't help but look at anything with sugar in it and not think about making booze out of it.

Anyway, I grabbed 6 kilos of honey, dumped it in a carboy, added 15 L of water, a touch of yeast nutrient and an old pack of ec1118 that was in the fridge.

After a quick spin with my wine degasser I through on the airlock and sat it on my heated floor at 28 degrees.

Now...ec1118 was my go to cider yeast and it always worked fast and aggressive...but this pack was a little old so I figured it was causing my sluggish start.

After a couple days there wasn't much of a head on the must, but it was fermenting steady with a bubble every 2 seconds.

I'm about 20 days in and its still going slow and steady with a bubble every few seconds. I haven't taken a hydrometer or ph reading yet.

Anyway I'm glad to hear that mead is suppose to be slow...but it also sounds like this batch may be rubbish due to my poor ingredient choices...either way a learning experience for me.

Well, looks like I found out what the problem was. Apparently when I got yeast nutrient and energizer from my LHBS a while back they were both brownish-tan little baggies that looked very similar, and I'm suspecting that they might have both been energizer. Yesterday I went to a different homebrew store and got their version of yeast nutrient which is apparently urea and diammonium phosphate and has the appearance of white crystals. I added 3 tsp of it to my mead and as of today it started going crazy fast. Thanks again for all the suggestions!

Well, looks like I found out what the problem was. Apparently when I got yeast nutrient and energizer from my LHBS a while back they were both brownish-tan little baggies that looked very similar, and I'm suspecting that they might have both been energizer. Yesterday I went to a different homebrew store and got their version of yeast nutrient which is apparently urea and diammonium phosphate and has the appearance of white crystals. I added 3 tsp of it to my mead and as of today it started going crazy fast. Thanks again for all the suggestions!

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I followed suit, I added 2.5 tsp of the same yeast nutrient and gave it a vigorous stir. After almost 24 hours it's back to about a bubble every 3 seconds...same as it was before.

It's been fermenting like this for about 3 weeks now...

Well gents I figured I'd give an update.

Over the past three or 4 days the fermentation has tapered from a bubble every 4 seconds to a bubble every 20. There was a sizable yeast bed developed on the bottom of the carboy so I decided to rack it into another for secondary fermentation.

I tested the gravity and it was spot on 1.000, I know the Vinometer is regarded by most to be a useless piece of junk but I tested it anyway and it came in at 16%.

I decided to give it a taste...never having made mead before I really don't know what I'm looking for.

Anyway. It still looks cloudy, smells sweet honey like and alcoholic. It has a heavier mouth feel than expected, a slight sweetness with a mild honey flavor. But after you swallow it feels like a mouth full of white lightning. There is an aggressive alcoholic taste that leaves a warmth in your mouth and a lightness in your head.

To recap I used the following:

13.2 Pounds of honey topped up to the 5 Gallon mark on my carboy, EC1118 hydrated slightly and pitched with a teaspoon of energizer.

I'm hoping like wine the harshness will mellow out with some ageing. I'm going to move it to a cool corner in my basement and bulk age until it clears up. But all in all I don't think this will end up going in the toilet like previous experiments.

Make sure you rack it to a clean carboy and I'm glad to hear it is progressing! One thing I don't care for is when people buy bulk products and repackage them with crappy labeling and especially incorrect labeling. I guess we either trust them or pay more for a truly packaged brand.

I started a costco mead on Dec 17 and today it is at 1.000 and is ready to rack so I'm thankful this wasn't an issue for me. I used 18lbs with 6lbs of sweet cherries for a 6 gallon batch. It tasted great but still a little hot so some aging should yield a decent batch. BTW I found Orange Blossom Honey on Ebay for$79.00 in a 30 lb pail from Smitty_Bee. It comes with a usda quality sticker of inspection and you also get to re use the 5 gallon bucket when you are done. It was semi crystalized but it sure was easy to scoop out with a big metal spoon and weigh as I made my must. I think I will used them more often in the future but like most people I figured I would try this costco stuff at least once.
Here's a link http://www.ebay.com/sch/smitty_bee/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=200&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2654

Bigbeavk said:

Make sure you rack it to a clean carboy and I'm glad to hear it is progressing! One thing I don't care for is when people buy bulk products and repackage them with crappy labeling and especially incorrect labeling. I guess we either trust them or pay more for a truly packaged brand.

I started a costco mead on Dec 17 and today it is at 1.000 and is ready to rack so I'm thankful this wasn't an issue for me. I used 18lbs with 6lbs of sweet cherries for a 6 gallon batch. It tasted great but still a little hot so some aging should yield a decent batch. BTW I found Orange Blossom Honey on Ebay for$79.00 in a 30 lb pail from Smitty_Bee. It comes with a usda quality sticker of inspection and you also get to re use the 5 gallon bucket when you are done. It was semi crystalized but it sure was easy to scoop out with a big metal spoon and weigh as I made my must. I think I will used them more often in the future but like most people I figured I would try this costco stuff at least once.
Here's a link http://www.ebay.com/sch/smitty_bee/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=200&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2654

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They put 2.5 gallons of honey into a 5 gallon bucket?? Seems a bit odd to me...

Yes they fill it half way so you get a 5 gallon food grade bucket with an o ring lid. Maybe it's easier for the UPS guy I guess.

hillhousesawdustco said:

You're in the middle of California's Great Valley, AKA the Beekeeping Center of the (almond-dominated) Universe! Gotta be some honey around. If you want Montana honey or just want to make sure my niece gets every christmas present she asked for try out glaciercountyhoney.com 12 or 35 lb buckets

Click to expand...

Yes! I live right next to almond orchards and discovered past two apiaries today taking a short cut to the highway. Have been thinking about mead. This is great news for me.

I was under the impression that the ph is best kept at 3.4 - 3.5. I had a must that was very slow to start - the ph was abut 4.5. I added some orange and some lemon juice to bring it down to between 3 and 4 and then it got going. Took ten days to go from 1.08 to 1.005, including step feeding with more honey along the way.