sivdrinks
Well-Known Member
If I'm understanding it's purpose correctly I don't see the need for one with BIAB. Any arguments? For the record I'm using a keggle and no sparge.
BIAB, why mashout?
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Seven
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You can skip it if you are happy with your efficiency and have no problems hitting your target gravity. If not, a mashout is a good tool to improve efficiency and help you hit your gravity numbers.
Haven't done biab yet, but I read that a mash out will help "liquify" the grains so that you will get more wort draining from the bag without squeezing, but would love to hear an expert chime in.
william_shakes_beer
Well-Known Member
I also would like to hear the theory behind the effeciency increases proposed by mashing out. I will also copy the OP to the brew science forum
I have to confess that I'm quite skeptical of any claim that pins higher efficiency on a mash-out. I'm sure it happens, but to me that suggests that conversion hadn't completed and that the mash-out is acting like a crutch. I certainly wouldn't want my grains liquified 
D) and temperatures effect on solubility isn't relevant here. I see no reason to mash out with BIAB, particularly no sparge versions.
D) and temperatures effect on solubility isn't relevant here. I see no reason to mash out with BIAB, particularly no sparge versions.
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sivdrinks
Well-Known Member
Wouldn't the higher temp create a thicker less ABV beer though? Not sure how that doesn't actually hurt efficiency. I'm using a custom bag that fits my keggle and use a good bit of water, my absorption is pretty low.
Seven
Well-Known Member
My understanding is that it makes the grain bed more liquid which allows the wort and sugars to make it into your brew kettle vs. staying stuck to the grain when you lift them from the kettle. I haven't done any scientific experiments to prove any theories either way about this ... mainly because doing a mashout is so simple that I've always just done them.
Are you talking about fermentability from different mash temps? Sure, that's true, but a mash out doesn't (or shouldn't) affect that.
All of the sugars should already be solubilized by the end of 60 minutes. It wouldn't stick to the grain, unless you are suggesting that cold husk absorbs more water than warm husk does. If you're water's not penetrating the grain husk properly then a mash-out might help by providing ramped-up activity at the end, but in reality that's the sign of a bad crush.
I don't really BIAB, but I do alternate consistently between a 170ºF sparge and a 60ºF sparge with absolutely zero difference in my efficiency.
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sivdrinks
Well-Known Member
MalFet said:
Yeah, but ok. I'm using about 7.5-8 gallons water with my 9-12 pound grain bills so it's pretty liquidy.
I do agree that the solubility of sugar goes up as the temp does (try dissolving a teaspoon of sugar in cold tap water, then try it in boiling water) but it's not very relevant to the mash out. Its purpose is foremost about deactivating enzymes prior to a 60minute + fly sparge where that longer activity may affect fermentability. In a BIAB, this is irrelevant as well. The last reason a mashout may be beneficial was touched on already. If conversion was only 90% complete, that last bit of ramped up temp will push the enzymes to complete conversion. In fact, you could practically shorten your mash by a good 15 minutes if you plan a mash out ramp up. For example, if a given bill normally takes 60 minutes to convert at 152F, you can do 30 minutes at 152 and spend 15 minutes ramping up to 168 and it will definitely be done.
I'm sorry, I'm not following you. Mash temperature will affect the fermentability of your wort. The amount of water you add will make your mash thicker or thinner. These two things aren't really that related, and a mash-out is different than either. Using a mash-out will neither change the fermentability of your wort nor alter your water to grist ratio. All it does is stop enzyme activity.
Exactly. Solubility (both rate and degree) is definitely a function of temperature, but that shouldn't be a limiting factor here. A liter of 25ºC water will dissolve two kilos of sucrose. This goes up to four kilos at 85ºC. As brewers, we're dealing with 2-3% of those concentration.
BeerWiki quote: "Mashing out is the process of raising the mash temperature to 170F. The goal being to halt any enzymatic activity and prevent further conversion of starches to sugars.
Mash-out is often left out of the batch sparging process as a large amount of 170F+ water will be added for the sparging process."
And, IMO, if you do NO SPARGE BIAB and your plan is to start boiling immediately, then that essentially funtions as a mash-out.
Mash-out is often left out of the batch sparging process as a large amount of 170F+ water will be added for the sparging process."
And, IMO, if you do NO SPARGE BIAB and your plan is to start boiling immediately, then that essentially funtions as a mash-out.
Seven
Well-Known Member
I'd venture to guess that the BeerWiki you've quoted here was written with traditional AG brewing in mind. BIAB mashout isn't meant to halt enzymatic activity; it's meant to help get every bit of wort possible into the kettle.
I agree that the quote is originally for all-grain. But using BIAB does not change the purpose of a mash-out.
If you want to increase BIAB efficiency, you are best off sparging. I BIAB and use varying techniques... +/- mash-out, +/- batch sparge(s). The technique I use depends on my goal. But if you want the greatest increase in efficiency with BIAB, the best way is to add a sparge (or two).
If you want to increase BIAB efficiency, you are best off sparging. I BIAB and use varying techniques... +/- mash-out, +/- batch sparge(s). The technique I use depends on my goal. But if you want the greatest increase in efficiency with BIAB, the best way is to add a sparge (or two).
Lennie
Well-Known Member
I think the merits of a mashout can be debated without regard to the type of AG process you use. It won't really help efficiency more than a step mash, and it is only really advantageous if you are mashing at a higher temp and wanting to fix your wort's unfermentables at a high level for more body. If you put the wort on to boil quickly you can minimize that without the mashout.
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sivdrinks
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MalFet said:
What are the enzymes doing that need stopped? If I pull the bag out and drain/squeeze isn't that enough? I only mentioned water volume because I figured the extra amount with BIAB/no sparge would take care of rinsing the sugars. I'm still new so be gentle!
When mashing, you are (predominately) converting starches to sugars. This is mainly accomplished by beta and alpha amylase enzymes. They both form sugars as byproducts. But, it is predominately the activity of beta-amylase that results in fermentable sugar (the greatest proportion of which is maltose). And the proportion of sugar that is fermentable plays a role in FG and residual sweetness of beer.
So, once you deactivate beta amylase (above 160, as with a mash-out), you have effectively locked in the proportion of the sugars.
Keep in mind that the larger portion of the enzymes are located in the wort, not with the grains.
ayoungrad addressed the technical issues, but to answer your other question: I see no benefit to doing a mashout with a full volume, no sparge BIAB. If you're getting good results without one, you've got no reason to change.
Seven
Well-Known Member
I'm confident that mashouts with BIAB do make a difference.
Converting starches to sugars is one thing. But comparing traditional AG mashouts to BIAB mashouts is like comparing apples to oranges. With AG, it's all about stopping enzymatic activity, etc. With BIAB, the mash is heated to 170 to make it more fluid and thereby easier to drain the wort into the kettle. Getting as much wort as possible into the kettle is critical with no-sparge BIAB. Try it some time and you'll see the difference...
This whole argument about whether efficiency can be improved or not but doing a mashout sounds like it would be a good experiment. Mash two batches of grain and keep everything identical except that one gets a mashout and the other doesn't. Then calculate efficiency and see if there is a difference or not. I will try this one day unless someone else beats me to it.
Converting starches to sugars is one thing. But comparing traditional AG mashouts to BIAB mashouts is like comparing apples to oranges. With AG, it's all about stopping enzymatic activity, etc. With BIAB, the mash is heated to 170 to make it more fluid and thereby easier to drain the wort into the kettle. Getting as much wort as possible into the kettle is critical with no-sparge BIAB. Try it some time and you'll see the difference...
This whole argument about whether efficiency can be improved or not but doing a mashout sounds like it would be a good experiment. Mash two batches of grain and keep everything identical except that one gets a mashout and the other doesn't. Then calculate efficiency and see if there is a difference or not. I will try this one day unless someone else beats me to it.
I understand what you're saying; I just disagree. I'm not sure what "grain bed fluidity" means in this context, and I can't really picture how cooler grain husks would retain more water than warmer grain husks would. Certainly the temperature difference isn't impacting solubility in a way that should be relevant to home brewers.
More importantly, I have run exactly the experiment you are proposing dozens of times. Sometimes I batch sparge with hot water and sometimes with cold. My system is honed in and I hit my numbers every time. I get identical lauter efficiency numbers at 60ºF that I get at 170ºF. You're welcome to whatever opinion you'd like, of course, but I've never seen anything other than conventional wisdom to suggest that grain bed temperature at drain/lauter/bag-removal impacts efficiency.
The more controlled way to do this experiment is to first test for sugar concentration at the end of the mash to calculate mash efficiency. Then suspend the bag and time exactly 5 minutes of draining. Measure the volume and gravity. Next, put the bag back into the pot/wort, raise the temp to 170 and repeat the 5 minute hang and measurements.
If the second gravity reading is higher, ramping the temp added more conversion.
If the gravity is all the same but the second volume is higher, the theory of "wort fluidity" is confirmed for now.
My best guess is that any increases in efficiency simply due to raised temps is due to added conversion.
If the second gravity reading is higher, ramping the temp added more conversion.
If the gravity is all the same but the second volume is higher, the theory of "wort fluidity" is confirmed for now.
My best guess is that any increases in efficiency simply due to raised temps is due to added conversion.
Lennie
Well-Known Member
When I do a mashout I'll get a few more gravity points but they generally also show up in my FG, so they are mostly unfermentables. Its a good trick for when I want more body.
As for the warmer wort flowing better, the difference in viscosity is negligible and draining occurs nicely either way.
As for the warmer wort flowing better, the difference in viscosity is negligible and draining occurs nicely either way.
bschoenb
Well-Known Member
+1 on getting more extraction on Mashout; I get about 3-5 OG points w/170 mashout as I begin to heat my mash tun / boil kettle. You gotta heat it anyway?... Also, the whole Denatured enzyme is a redhering in BIAB.
Thanks for the collective information, brewed BIAB style this morning and didn't bother w/ a mashout...will report w/ results, but since I have no control experiment, lets just say I'm happy to shortcut the process for a perhaps a few handfulls of grain.
BIAB has tons of variations. Not everyone uses the exact set-up or techniques that you use. As an example... some people even BIAB and mash the night or day before they start their boil because of timing issues, etc. For them, mashing out makes sense.
BeerAlchemist
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I heard using a mash out helps yeast ferment later on by removing more of certain proteins from the grains as well as higher ABV from natural sugars.
I might just try this.
FWIW, I wouldn't raise the bag before mashout. It's only going to cool and then drop your mash temperature when you add it back. The best way is to simply agitate the mash as you heat
It's not extract solubility that you care about, but decreased wort viscosity. Ramping through all the enzyme ranges does seem beneficial too.
It's not extract solubility that you care about, but decreased wort viscosity. Ramping through all the enzyme ranges does seem beneficial too.
Parkinson1963
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http://chestofbooks.com/food/science/Experimental-Cookery/Solubility-Of-Maltose-In-Water-gillis.html
Looking at the link shows that by going from 66c Mash temp to mash out temp of 76c you gain ~30% increase in solubility, thus increasing the amount of maltose that the water will hold and subsequently drain into the kettle. Any way as previously stated as you are heating to a boil anyway, lifting the bag out at 76c to gain a gravity points seems like a no brainier to me. YMMV
Looking at the link shows that by going from 66c Mash temp to mash out temp of 76c you gain ~30% increase in solubility, thus increasing the amount of maltose that the water will hold and subsequently drain into the kettle. Any way as previously stated as you are heating to a boil anyway, lifting the bag out at 76c to gain a gravity points seems like a no brainier to me. YMMV
bovineblitz
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I don't think a mashout accomplishes anything as far as efficiency goes. Theoretically you can provide reasons it should, but in the real world I don't think it does anything.
Parkinson1963 said:
Sure, nobody's doubting that solubility goes up with increased temperature; the question is, does it matter? By your chart, a liter of water can hold two thousand grams of maltose. For comparisons sake, a big IIPA will have less than one hundred grams of malt sugars per liter. If solubility isn't a limiting factor, raising it won't change anything.
Grumpybumpy
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FWIW I always double crush my grains for BIAB and come out with great efficiency without mashing out. I am a bag squeezer though
ultravista
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What is the purpose of stopping enzymatic activity to prevent further conversion of starches to sugars? Wouldn't you want more conversion than less? Does further conversion result in a higher gravity or greater efficiency?
I don't understand the importance of stopping the conversion. What are the bad results of not stopping it?
I don't understand the importance of stopping the conversion. What are the bad results of not stopping it?
bovineblitz
Well-Known Member
ultravista said:
It can result in a higher final gravity, that's about it. There won't be much to convert at that point though so it's really not going to do much.
Realistically there's no real benefit. I never do a mash out.
ultravista
Well-Known Member
I do a modified BIAB, actually mash in a bag, and either batch or dunk sparge. My numbers have always been good. Usually my batch/dunk temp is 168 to 170 anyhow so I guess that's a form of mashout.
+1
Yes, the way I look at efficiency in general is more about dialing in your system to know how much grain is required to hit the target gravity. Higher efficiency means less grain (and possibly DME) is required.
So whether you do a mashout or not, I think it comes down to getting consistant results out of your system, regardless of how you do it.
tennesseean_87
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My understanding (someone correct me if I'm wrong), which reading the mashing theory wiki page did not contradict, is that once the starch is converted into sugars (at a certain ratio of fermentable to unfermentable sugars), continued enzymatic activity can continue to break down the unfermentable sugars into fermentable sugars. The article does state that time affects the level of fermentability (ratio of ferm:unferm sugars) because
(emphasis mine). You seem to be indicating that once a starch is converted, it's either fermentable or unfermentable and will stay that way, while the article seems to indicate that the sugars can be further broken down, in which case a mashout would help if you are going to do a sparge or pause between mash and boil and want a higher amount of dextrines. But if you are going to begin the boil immediately (no-sparge BIAB), as you said it has no effect.
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