I need to bounce some ideas...

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Todd

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I'm really interested in naturally carbing my beer before I bottle or keg it.

I had a couple ideas on how I could ferment it to allow it to naturally carb. they both revolve around slightly modified corny kegs.

The first idea was to either use 2 5G kegs or modify one to 7G, then add a dump port on the side for trub removal, also an airlock fitting. I figure that would give me plenty of room and after Primary is finished I can dump the trub then seal it up tight. That should cause it to be carbed up when I bottle right?

The other idea was the same port modification but use the keg as a secondary, would I get enough co2 production after I rack?

Then I would probably use a counter flow bottle filler.

Is there a way to test if it is fully carbed? Could I put a pressure gauge on to determine if it is high enough or I need to add co2?

Let me know what you think.

Todd
 
I think we need to know what your definition of "naturally carbonated" is.

When I bottle beer, I add some priming sugar (corn sugar or DME) and put the beer into the bottles. The beer will 'naturally carbonate' in the bottle as the yeast eats the additional sugars provided by the priming solution.

-walker
 
Interesting idea. However, I think that you may be overthinking the process. I am unsure why you would need to install any modification to the corny keg itself. After all, any valve that you install would need to be able to withstand the pressure resulting from a carbed keg of beer.

In order to do this, you can simply use the corny as a secondary. I am sure that there are charts somewhere that tell at what point (gravity-wise) you should rack the beer in order to get the carbonation level that you desire. Remember that you can always bleed off excess pressure, but you won't be able to get more pressure from a beer that does not have adequate sugar remaining for CO2 production.

Here are some things to think about. If you are concerned enough to desire "natural carbonation," what is wrong with priming with DME? It is malt, after all? You can condition it in the keg with only a small addition after secondary, etc. Additionally, you could reserve some of your wort from brew day. Freeze it until secondary fermentation is complete; boil it, and use it for conditioning in your keg (I believe that this is called krausening). Again, I think that there are charts describing how much of the wort you will need at certain gravities, etc.

An alternative to the idea of modifying the keg for trub removal - just cut the dip tube, so that as the beer leaves the keg, the sediment is left behind.

One other thing. You won't be able to bottle using the method you describe. Even if you cask condition the beer (which is what you are doing), you will never have enough pressure to get all of the beer out of that keg. You will still need a CO2 tank to push it all through your counterpressure bottle filler, etc.
 
Sorry guys, I should have been more clear why I'm looking into this. It is mostly time. My thought was if I let the beer carb while it is conditioning then it should be ready to drink sooner. Waiting 2-3 weeks after I bottle sucks.

I would be welding a 1/2" coupler in the keg so pressure is not a problem.

I might be missing something all together here. The micros are able to bottle or keg a carbed beer in a short period of time, they don't need "bottle conditioning" to make it taste good. Are they doing something I can't which would prevent me from doing the same?

I am not against adding forced CO2 if needed but if I can let it carb while conditioning I think it would save time. I'm not setup with a fridge to cool the keg so I have to bottle still.

Would using the dip tube for trub removal work?

I have nothing against the priming sugar also, just trying to get drinkable beer sooner.

Like I mentioned I might be missing something in the process that would prevent me from doing this.



sonvolt said:
Interesting idea. However, I think that you may be overthinking the process. I am unsure why you would need to install any modification to the corny keg itself. After all, any valve that you install would need to be able to withstand the pressure resulting from a carbed keg of beer.

In order to do this, you can simply use the corny as a secondary. I am sure that there are charts somewhere that tell at what point (gravity-wise) you should rack the beer in order to get the carbonation level that you desire. Remember that you can always bleed off excess pressure, but you won't be able to get more pressure from a beer that does not have adequate sugar remaining for CO2 production.

Here are some things to think about. If you are concerned enough to desire "natural carbonation," what is wrong with priming with DME? It is malt, after all? You can condition it in the keg with only a small addition after secondary, etc. Additionally, you could reserve some of your wort from brew day. Freeze it until secondary fermentation is complete; boil it, and use it for conditioning in your keg (I believe that this is called krausening). Again, I think that there are charts describing how much of the wort you will need at certain gravities, etc.

An alternative to the idea of modifying the keg for trub removal - just cut the dip tube, so that as the beer leaves the keg, the sediment is left behind.

One other thing. You won't be able to bottle using the method you describe. Even if you cask condition the beer (which is what you are doing), you will never have enough pressure to get all of the beer out of that keg. You will still need a CO2 tank to push it all through your counterpressure bottle filler, etc.
Click to expand...
 
sonvolt said:
Here are some things to think about. If you are concerned enough to desire "natural carbonation," what is wrong with priming with DME? It is malt, after all? You can condition it in the keg with only a small addition after secondary, etc. Additionally, you could reserve some of your wort from brew day. Freeze it until secondary fermentation is complete; boil it, and use it for conditioning in your keg (I believe that this is called krausening). Again, I think that there are charts describing how much of the wort you will need at certain gravities, etc..
Click to expand...


Nothing at all, just if you finish fermentation you are looking at another 2 weeks till it is ready. In most cases the beer should be ready to drink when conditioning is finished right? I'm not really seeking cask conditioned, just trying to use the natural co2 production to my benefit.
 
If you are looking at speed, why not force carbonate? I usually use the slow method of force carbonating. I put my beer on CO2 and about 5 days later it is fully carbed.

There is a quicker way that involves putting beer on about 30 lbs CO2 and shaking the pi$$ out of it over the course of a few hours. From my understanding, you can carb a keg is just a day using this method.
 
Todd said:
Sorry guys, I should have been more clear why I'm looking into this. It is mostly time. My thought was if I let the beer carb while it is conditioning then it should be ready to drink sooner. Waiting 2-3 weeks after I bottle sucks.
Click to expand...

Ok, I see. One comment I would like to make is that the 2-3 weeks you are waiting is not JUST for the carbonation levels to come out right. A beer very often needs this time to mature and reach it's real flavor potential.

You've heard of 'green beer', right?

Anyway.... If you are really set on getting your beer into your belly as soon as possible, and you have the kegging set-up, you might want to just use the CO2 tank to force carbonate your beer. That'll certainly be faster than any natural carbonation process.

You can rack your beer into the keg, straight from the primary. Add the CO2 and shake the hell out of it to get the CO2 into solution as fast as possible. From what I've read, you can have your beer carbonated in as little as a day this way.

But... it might still taste green and need more time to mature.
 
sonvolt said:
If you are looking at speed, why not force carbonate? I usually use the slow method of force carbonating. I put my beer on CO2 and about 5 days later it is fully carbed.

There is a quicker way that involves putting beer on about 30 lbs CO2 and shaking the pi$$ out of it over the course of a few hours. From my understanding, you can carb a keg is just a day using this method.
Click to expand...

I think what I'm asking or trying to understand is if the beer is already making co2 and I can seal the vessel. Why not let it do its thing while it conditions? What I'm thinking is that my beer might be fully carbed when you are just adding the force carb.

We were talking to Troegs and they said after primary is slowing down the lock down the fermentor and when it is finished conditioning it is normally fully carbed.

If I can let it naturally carb why not right?

I appreaciate your input I wanted to get some other thoughts on it to see if I'm missing an important step.

Would fermenting 2.5 gallons in a 5 gallon vessel be an issue? I know primary puts off a lot of co2 so I think it would be ok.
 
Walker-san said:
Ok, I see. One comment I would like to make is that the 2-3 weeks you are waiting is not JUST for the carbonation levels to come out right. A beer very often needs this time to mature and reach it's real flavor potential.

You've heard of 'green beer', right?
Click to expand...


This is kind of what I was worried about. I might see if I can pick up a keg and give this a try. If I do I'll keep everyone posted.

so how do micros have it ready so fast?
 
Todd said:
I think what I'm asking or trying to understand is if the beer is already making co2 and I can seal the vessel. Why not let it do its thing while it conditions? What I'm thinking is that my beer might be fully carbed when you are just adding the force carb.
Click to expand...

There are a couple of issues here.

(1) If you put the actively fermenting beer (eg; your primary fermenter) under pressure, I think the pressure affects the yeast and they will stop fermenting early.

(2) If you are trying to do this type of carbonation during the real conditioning phase, then there is really no CO2 being genrated. The beer is done fermenting and is just aging and mellowing flavors.
 
Todd, I think the real issue here is that you're in a rush. I think your real answer is to just brew more batches back to back so that you'll actually have many overlapped batches ready to drink (after an initial ramp up period of course).

If you try carbing during the normal "secondary" period, you're still not benefiting from the aging. Then there's the issue of having to get a counter-pressure bottle filler since you said you're not ready for a full keg system and still want to bottle.
 
Bobby_M said:
Todd, I think the real issue here is that you're in a rush. I think your real answer is to just brew more batches back to back so that you'll actually have many overlapped batches ready to drink (after an initial ramp up period of course).

If you try carbing during the normal "secondary" period, you're still not benefiting from the aging. Then there's the issue of having to get a counter-pressure bottle filler since you said you're not ready for a full keg system and still want to bottle.
Click to expand...


Why does it take my beer six weeks to age yet a micro can be ready in 2-3 weeks?

I am in a bit of a hurry I admit, I have plenty of brew here to drink though. It is not a lack of beer, just I really want to try the new stuff.
 
After doing some more research I came across a thread on Probrewer and all those guys seem to think that capping the fermentor when primary is winding down will not have negative effects and is beneficial. The pressure and Excess CO2 shows no effects on most yeasts.

Anymore thoughts?
 
homebrewer_99 said:
I have a very simple rule that I use when it comes to brewing: fermentation is a natural process and natural processes should not be messed with.

PERIOD!;)
Click to expand...

When I put sugar and beer in my bottle and slap a cap on it is also a natural process. If all these microbrews are doing it then why could it not also work for me?

Sorry, I keep hearing a lot of opinions that it won't work but no one is saying they tried it or know anyone who tried it with negative results.
 
I think what's not part of the eqation here is that there is still time between when the micro finishes their beer and you drink it. Yes they ferment it in a few days, and then let it sit in a bright beer tank for another couple days to age a little and adjust the carbonation, but then there is the time from when it's bottled, packaged, shipped, delivered, stocked on shelves, you picking it up and then drinking it. I bet a few weeks have passed by that time.
 
Remember also that when beer was cask conditioned, they put it in the cask uncarbonated and primed it. It carbonated in route. Just because the beer goes out the door in 10 days, doesn't mean it's ready.
 
My thought was if I let the beer carb while it is conditioning then it should be ready to drink sooner. Waiting 2-3 weeks after I bottle sucks.
Click to expand...

This won't work. The 2-3 weeks post-bottling are also part of the conditioning process, not just carbonation. Nothing will speed the aging process.

As far as how fast the microbrewers do things, they don't ship anything until it is ready to drink. Six to eight weeks after fermentation finishes is normal. BMC's "fresh beer" campaign is for BMC customers, who are as clueless about the process as the taste.

Many, many years ago, back when megabrew was drinkable, companies would boast about how long their beer was aged.
 
If you just want a drinkable beer then go for something with not to high a SG. Fermentation should be pretty much done within 2 days,Rack to a secondary for 5 days. Prime and bottle. Carbonation and maturing 7 to 14 days.


You can have your brew within 3 weeks rather than 6 weeks.
Do a brew the next day using the quality route and by the time you've drank the quick brew the good stuff'll be ready. Use one PET bottle then giving it a squeeze will tell you if it's ready.

I'm not sure if you're doing AG or Extract.
 
I was thinking of hooking up a pressure guage and adjustable relief valve to my sanke tap(rotating the gas one way valve) and allowing natural carbonation that way. I was thinking I wouldn't have to worry about wrong carb level and could just kinda forget about it until its ready. I wonder if this is worth it though since force carb is so easy? Anyone have any comments?
 
I made this, found out it was called a spunding valve and then saw one in BYO. I love how it fits in with my setup. I use blow-off CO2 from primary to purge my secondary/serving keg and then tap this valve to the keg when full. I have mine set to 14 psi and bleed to 12 psi after it is finished. I like this because I am using a lot less CO2 in bottle form and I am getting better carbonation results. I also enjoy that if sediment ever was a problem for more than a couple of beers when serving, that I could buy a filter and simply transfer under pressure to another keg and have crystal beer. I know not everyone will find this of use, but I have and wanted to share my experience with it. :rockin:
 
Todd, I too was once in the rush that you appear to be in. I found an excellent solution though, brew like mad! That way once you've waited the initial few weeks, there's always a ready supply of delicious beer!
 
I never have enough beer and I brew 16 gallons. I am scouting more kegs to enlarge my storage so I eliminate that problem in my future. Brew, brew, brew!
 
Todd said:
When I put sugar and beer in my bottle and slap a cap on it is also a natural process. If all these microbrews are doing it then why could it not also work for me?

Sorry, I keep hearing a lot of opinions that it won't work but no one is saying they tried it or know anyone who tried it with negative results.
Click to expand...
Yes, you are correct, but I am talking fermentation not carbonation. One has to finsh before the other can start.:D
 
homebrewer_99 said:
Yes, you are correct, but I am talking fermentation not carbonation. One has to finsh before the other can start.:D
Click to expand...

sorry guys this whole thing started not from being in a hurry as everyone thought. I went to tour some local breweries and they are all working to natural carb to some extent to save gas.

I have not tried it at all and probably won't.
 
last time i kegged a beer i put the air corny ball lock on the out(it kinda fits...) on the keg and turned on the air. I would shake the keg and stop and i could hear the bubbles coming out of the bottom of the dip tube. Shake it more and more bubbles. In 10 min I WAY over carbonated that keg of beer. oops... ya, in 10 min after kegging I could drink a full glass of (warm) carbonated beer.:D
 

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