Critique my Spaghetti Wheat

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noggins

noggins

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Lookin for recipe feedback, this is based on research into using unmalted wheat for up to 60% of the grain bill.

[EDIT]See the most recent version of the recipe here[/EDIT]

[EDIT]Brewed on 5/21/11, officially renamed Rapture Cream of Wheat[/EDIT]

Spaghetti Wheat

Batch Size: 6.0 gal
Boil Size: 7.5 gal
Estimated OG: 1.048 SG
Estimated Color: 3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 10 IBU
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
6 lb Spaghetti
3 lb Pilsner 2 Row
1 lb Quick Oats
1 lb Brown Sugar

0.50 oz Hallertau (60 min)
0.25 oz Williamette (60 min)

1 oz Orange Zest (2 Lrg Sweet Oranges)
American Wheat Yeast

Cook then simmer spaghetti for 1-3 hours
Mash the pasta w/ the 2 Row, oats, and sugar at 155° for 90 minutes
Add orange zest w/ 10 minutes left in the boil.
 
How will the spaghetti convert from starch to sugar? Unmalted wheat and spaghetti definitely aren't the same thing.
 
The cereal mash with the 2-row will convert it, according to everything I've read. Sorry if I used the wrong term, but I've definitely seen spaghetti used as up to 60% of the grain bill for a wheat beer.
 
I think you need to have the 2-row in the pot you are cooking the spaghetti in during the cooking phase. That's when you are getting your conversion. I've never seen a cereal mash where the unmalted grain wasn't boiled/cooked without the diastatic malt.

You might want to read through this thread.

Otherwise I think it's cool.
 
You need to do 2 things: gelatinize the wheat starch, then add enzymes to convert the starch to fermentable sugars.

Cooking the spaghetti will accomplish the first, then mashing with 2-row will do the second.

I thing you are OK with your plan. I can't imagine that 3 hours is necessary... I'd be inclined to cook the spaghetti the same way I do for dinner, maybe a bit more. I'd add to boiling water and then boil for 20 minutes. You'll know the starch has gelatinized when the spaghetti swells to twice it's beginning diameter.

Very cool idea, spaghetti. Somehow I've never heard of this before. Always something new with this screwy hobby. Thanks turtle.
 
After using plain-old brown rice instead of flaked rice for my last cream ale, I'm starting to notice new ways to save money using GAP...I can buy 6lb of brown rice for the same price as 1lb of minute rice or flaked rice. Considering my lhbs sucks more every time I'm in there, this will be exponentially beneficial. I considered using wheat spaghetti for this recipe, though it's not quite as cheap and I can't really think of any great benefit.
 
Spaghetti uses hard (high protein) wheat, so it isn’t ideal for brewing, but it will still work. You are certainly fine pre-boiling the starch source before adding the malt (1-3 hours is unnecessary, but cook it until it is really mushy), but I don’t think you have enough enzymes in 3 lbs of malt to convert 10 lbs of grain. People usually report that American pale 2-row is usually alright to convert itself plus ~30-40% of its own weight in adjuncts, with 6-row you can go a bit higher. I would swap the amounts of spaghetti and 2-row (Wits and Lambics use the most unmalted wheat, and legally Belgian brewers can’t go over 40%).

Good luck.
 
With all the different spaghettis out there, this could be really interesting. You have your whole wheat pastas for instance, that's got to produce different flavors than bleached white pasta. This is a really cool idea.
 
So, has anyone found any actual evidence that explains the amount of grains that 2-row can convert in the mashing process? I'm not able to find anything from searching other than guesses and imho's that say anywhere from 20% to 80%..
 
at what point does this become alcoholic spaghetti water and not beer? :)

you guys are insane... love it.
 
jtakacs said:
at what point does this become alcoholic spaghetti water and not beer? :)

you guys are insane... love it.
Click to expand...

spaghetti is a wheat, wheat is a grain, beer is made from grains. by the same measure, you could call any beer alcoholic grain water. :ban:
 
Very interesting, going to subscribe so I can hear more. Lots of potential here to blow people's minds with what's in the final product.
 
I'm gonna go with the original 6lb spaghetti to 3lb 2row, with an extra 3lb of 2row on hand just in case I don't get full conversion. Hopefully I can just toss it in and re-mash it 60 more minutes if needed.
 
turtle said:
So, has anyone found any actual evidence that explains the amount of grains that 2-row can convert in the mashing process? I'm not able to find anything from searching other than guesses and imho's that say anywhere from 20% to 80%..
Click to expand...

You can look at the malt analysis sheet (if you can get one) for Diastatic Power (DP) which is measured in degrees Lintner. It takes ~40 Lintner to convert 1 pound of grain (that is a malt with a DP of 40 can self convert, but cannot deal with adjuncts). American pale 2-row is often around 100-120 Lintner, so theoretically under ideal 1 lb could convert 1.5-2 lbs of adjuncts, but at that ratio it would probably take longer than the standard 60 minutes and you might not get as fermentable a wort.

Having extra enzymes on hand would be a good idea, you could mash 60 minutes, to an iodine starch test, and add enzymes if necessary.
 
Oldsock said:
You can look at the malt analysis sheet (if you can get one) for Diastatic Power (DP) which is measured in degrees Lintner. It takes ~40 Lintner to convert 1 pound of grain (that is a malt with a DP of 40 can self convert, but cannot deal with adjuncts). American pale 2-row is often around 100-120 Lintner, so theoretically under ideal 1 lb could convert 1.5-2 lbs of adjuncts, but at that ratio it would probably take longer than the standard 60 minutes and you might not get as fermentable a wort.

Having extra enzymes on hand would be a good idea, you could mash 60 minutes, to an iodine starch test, and add enzymes if necessary.
Click to expand...


You might also seek out some 6-row base malt. It should have a higher diastatic power.
 
Perhaps I should go about this mythbusters style and do a couple small scale experiments before turning a bunch of grains into compost. If I take, say...

2oz of grains using the original amounts(60/30/10) yields:
1.2 oz spaghetti
0.6 oz pils 2row
0.2 oz quick oats

2oz using the safe amount(30/60/10) yields:
0.6 oz spaghetti
1.2 oz pils 2row
0.2 oz quick oats

2oz splitting the difference(45/45/10) yields:
0.9 oz spaghetti
0.9 oz pils 2row
0.2 oz quick oats

mash requires 1qt water/pound of grain;
2oz is 1/8 of a pound;
1/8 of a quart is roughly a 1/2 cup;

Mash 2oz grains in 1/2 cup of water for 60 minutes at 152º in insulated coffee mugs in a double-boiler type setup to maintain constant temp on all three samples. Then take a gravity reading and do an iodine test to determine conversion. :cross:
 
according to the briess specs, their wheats have even higher DP (190-200) so you could make this an interesting all wheat brew.
 
turtle said:
Perhaps I should go about this mythbusters style and do a couple small scale experiments before turning a bunch of grains into compost. If I take, say...

2oz of grains using the original amounts(60/30/10) yields:
1.2 oz spaghetti
0.6 oz pils 2row
0.2 oz quick oats

2oz using the safe amount(30/60/10) yields:
0.6 oz spaghetti
1.2 oz pils 2row
0.2 oz quick oats

2oz splitting the difference(45/45/10) yields:
0.9 oz spaghetti
0.9 oz pils 2row
0.2 oz quick oats

mash requires 1qt water/pound of grain;
2oz is 1/8 of a pound;
1/8 of a quart is roughly a 1/2 cup;

Mash 2oz grains in 1/2 cup of water for 60 minutes at 152º in insulated coffee mugs in a double-boiler type setup to maintain constant temp on all three samples. Then take a gravity reading and do an iodine test to determine conversion. :cross:
Click to expand...

i say just do it your original way. Have some iodine ready to test starch conversion, and possible extend your mash. I think it will convert, albeit more slowly. I just called Mythbusters and they agree... they'd also said you don't need a secondary and HSA isn't real.
 
passedpawn said:
i say just do it your original way. Have some iodine ready to test starch conversion, and possible extend your mash. I think it will convert, albeit more slowly. I just called mythbusters and they agree... They'd also said you don't need a secondary and hsa isn't real.
Click to expand...

+1
 
After much thought I've altered recipe....back and forth and back and forth about 100 times...I think I've settled on this recipe now:

Spaghetti Wheat

Batch Size: 5.0 gal
Boil Size: 6.5 gal
Estimated OG: 1.043
Estimated FG: 1.011
Estimated Color: 3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 12 IBU
Estimated ABV: 4.1%
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
3 lb Pilsner 2 Row
3 lb Spaghetti
1 lb Quick Oats
1 lb Brown Sugar

0.50 oz Hallertau (60 min)
0.25 oz Williamette (60 min)

1 oz Orange Zest (2 Lrg Sweet Oranges)
American Wheat Yeast
 
me thinks I'll add 1lb of cane sugar to the mix just to get the abv up closer to where a wheat beer should be.

edit: ...maybe not...hmmm
 
This sounds like the most awesome wheat beer experiment ever! I'm definitely going to work some magic with this idea.
 
telling my wife about this, her reply was:

"its not going to taste like spaghetti...theres not going to be any meatballs in it...whats the f***ing point??"

haha!
 
Based on some more research, I've found 40% pils, 50% unmalted wheat(spaghetti) and 10% flaked oats to be the key ratios. Here's the latest recipe:

Spaghetti Wheat

Batch Size: 5.0 gal
Boil Size: 6.5 gal
Estimated OG: 1.048
Estimated FG: 1.012
Estimated Color: 3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 12 IBU
Estimated ABV: 4.6%
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
3 lb Pilsner 2 Row
4 lb Spaghetti
1 lb Quick Oats
1 lb Brown Sugar

0.50 oz Hallertau (60 min)
0.25 oz Williamette (60 min)

1 oz Orange Zest (2 Lrg Sweet Oranges)
American Wheat Yeast

Precook the spaghetti and oats
Mash the pasta and oats w/ the 2 Row at 155° for 90 minutes
Add sugar and orange zest w/ 10 minutes left in the boil.
 

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