Trying to get that hop bomb flavor but always coming up short. What am i doing wrong?

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Eddiebosox

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I have had this problem since I started brewing 4 years ago, and after maybe 40 batches of beer. I cannot get a really hoppy IPA. Sure I can get a nice bitterness to my ipa's, and some definite hop flavor, but I cannot, for the life of me, recreate that powerful grapefruit citrus aroma and flavor that I get from a commercial craft beer. Now mind you, I have tried everything. I have made a basic 2 row only single hop beer, I have mixed my grains to have just a touch of crystal, to a decent amount. I moved to all grain just to get more hop utilization thinking that was my problem. But still nothing. I've tried various yeasts from safale dry, to California yeast, to English yeast. And I've hopped the ever loving hell out of it. I've dumped in more hops in the last 30 minutes of the boil than you can imagine, and dry hopped it mercilessly, and I can't get that floral citrus punch I so desperately crave. What could I be doing wrong? I've used hops (pellets mostly) from hopunion, Austin homebrew, and brewmasters warehouse. All with the same results. A decent IPA with good bitterness but a very, very mild hop aroma and flavor. But I want a grapefruit hop BOMB. The odd thing is, every time I go to add my hop pellets, be it cascade, Amarillo, Willamette, or Citra, they really don’t have that grapfruity citrus smell that I get from the commercial beers I like. But when I research the beers I like they all say they use pellets. maybe I should look at hop oils? Wet hoping?
 
What is your typical boil size / batch size and how much total hops do you use per batch? Can you show us one of your typical hop schedules? A recipe would be even better if you tend to follow a theme, since we can gauge BU:GU ratio and determine if any character malts or odd processes are hindering your hops' potential.
 
What is your typical boil size / batch size and how much total hops do you use per batch? Can you show us one of your typical hop schedules? A recipe would be even better if you tend to follow a theme, since we can gauge BU:GU ratio and determine if any character malts or odd processes are hindering your hops' potential.

Here is my latest IPA:
Water Prep
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
10.00 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 mins)

Mash Ingredients
Amt Name
12 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US 76.2 %
2 lbs Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) 12.7 %
1 lbs 12.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) 11.1 %

Boil Ingredients
Amt Name Type
1.00 oz Citra [13.90 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 42.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Willamette [4.70 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 11.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Willamette [4.70 %] - Boil 25.0 min Hop 10.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [6.20 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 11.5 IBUs
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining
1.00 oz Cascade [6.20 %] - Boil 12.0 min Hop 7.9 IBUs
1.00 oz Willamette [4.70 %] Boil 10.0 min Hop 5.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [6.20 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 3.8 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [6.20 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 0.0 IBUs
 
Here is my latest IPA:
Water Prep
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
10.00 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 mins)

Mash Ingredients
Amt Name
12 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US 76.2 %
2 lbs Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) 12.7 %
1 lbs 12.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) 11.1 %

Boil Ingredients
Amt Name Type
1.00 oz Citra [13.90 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 42.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Willamette [4.70 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 11.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Willamette [4.70 %] - Boil 25.0 min Hop 10.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [6.20 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 11.5 IBUs
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining
1.00 oz Cascade [6.20 %] - Boil 12.0 min Hop 7.9 IBUs
1.00 oz Willamette [4.70 %] Boil 10.0 min Hop 5.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [6.20 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 3.8 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [6.20 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 0.0 IBUs

forgot to add 3 oz cascade dry hop. it makes a good IPA, but just doesn't have the citrus punch i want.
 
Do have any names of specific IPAs that you are trying to match your hoppiness to?
 
For IPAs, using first wort hops (usually 2 oz. of whole hops) definitely boosts hop flavor. For aroma, I think it's all about a lot (3-4 oz.+) of dry hops after fermentation is complete. Rousing the beer/hops once or more a day during dry-hopping helps, imo. That and drinking the beer while it's still young...

If all else fails, and you get into kegging, you can throw a couple ounces into a hop bag when your beer is ready to serve and you'll have all the hop aroma you want (plus some hop parts floating in your pint glass)!
 
"grapefruit hop BOMB"

A common problem is using large amounts of ONE hop for dry hopping, looks like what you did. You don't get a complex, intense nose that way.

Try this: mix 1 oz each of Perle, Cascades and Amarillo. Use 1 oz of the mix at 10 minutes, 1 oz @ 5 and use the rest to dry hop AFTER the fermentation is done. This replaces your last five adds. It will smell and taste like grapefruit juice.
 
In that recipe, I can say that I see two reasons for the lack of hoppiness. One is the relatively large amount of crystal malt 11% is a lot of crystal in an IPA. It's alot even for an APA but in an IPA a better amount would be 5% or under, or even none at all. Too much crystal can "mute" the hops flavor quite a bit. The second thing I see is the hops schedule leans toward bitterness, and not late hops, although dryhopping can help with that immensely.

What's your water profile like? 10 grams of gypsum in a 5 gallon batch sounds like a lot to me.
 
11%+ crystal malt in an IPA could mute hop focus. I would cut it out completely given your goal, or reduced to below 5% of the grist. If you want an extreme grapefruit hop BOMB, then you'll need to be more subtle with the malt bill. That doesn't mean it has to be simple. Take a look at a couple of these commerically cloned IPAs/IPAs. They usually have 85-90% 2-row and 3-7% munich, wheat, carapils, sugar, crystal, honey, etc. - not 12-20%.

You might be overdoing it on the gypsum. 10g seems like a lot. Have you ever had an analysis of your water done?

Willamette and Citra are not citrusy hops. One is earthy, the other is tropical. Stick with pellet hops (at least for late in the boil and the dryhop).

Here would be a very general revamp of the hop schedule for a 5 gal batch of highly aromatic, citrusy IPA:

Warrior, Chinook, or Columbus - Boil 60-90 min, 25-35 IBUs
Warrior, Chinook, or Columbus - Boil 30-20 min, 15-25 IBUs
2 oz. Centennial, Chinook, Cascade, Summit, or Amarillo combo at 15 min
Adjust IBUs with a small 7-5 min addition of more of the same
2 oz. 20-30 min Warm Aroma Steep of more of the same
3 oz. 7-10 day Dryhop of more of the same

Clean American Ale yeast, ferment in the mid 60s
 
Looking at your recipe, I'd move more of your hops toward the end of the boil. I don't think *much* difference comes from spacing five minute additions between 30-15 minutes. If aroma is what you're after then I'd put more quantity toward the end, like knockout hops, and toward dry hops. Three ounces of Cascade as dry-hops won't have the same aroma punch as three ounces of Centennial, for example.

Five ounces is a lot to use between the thirty to ten minute mark, compared to 1.5-2 ounces in the last five minutes. To me switching those quantities (1-2 ounces in the 30-10 span) and 3-5 ounces in the five to zero time) would yield better results.
 
Yooper, Bobbrews and Cram for the 5-4-3 triple play. Good advice on the grain bill and hop schedule. I do disagree with Bobbrews on the use of Citra. I found favorable CITRUS like results when combined with Centennial, Summit or Amarillo. I have yet to use it all by it's lonesome, though.
 
Willamette and Citra are not citrusy hops. One is earthy, the other is tropical. Stick with pellet hops (at least for late in the boil and the dryhop).

Here would be a very general revamp of the hop schedule for a 5 gal batch of highly aromatic, citrusy IPA:

Warrior, Chinook, or Columbus - Boil 60-90 min, 25-35 IBUs
Warrior, Chinook, or Columbus - Boil 30-20 min, 15-25 IBUs
2 oz. Centennial, Chinook, Cascade, Summit, or Amarillo combo at 15 min
Adjust IBUs with a small 7-5 min addition of more of the same
2 oz. 20-30 min Warm Aroma Steep of more of the same
3 oz. 7-10 day Dryhop of more of the same

Clean American Ale yeast, ferment in the mid 60s

Is a warm aroma steep done while cooling? Would a FWH yield similar results? I try to get my wort down to pitch temps asap. More for clarity than fear of contamination.
 
Yooper, Bobbrews and Cram for the 5-4-3 triple play. Good advice on the grain bill and hop schedule. I do disagree with Bobbrews on the use of Citra. I found favorable CITRUS like results when combined with Centennial, Summit or Amarillo. I have yet to use it all by it's lonesome, though.

Citra is melony and reminiscent of lychee fruit. It's very perfumey. Even when combined with other hops, it tends to dominate and a little bit goes a lonnggg way.

Despite the name it's not citrusy at all. Combine it with Amarillo and it becomes even better. They're like peas and carrots. Any grapefruit you get is from the Amarillo though, not the Citra. So you're really not disagreeing with me especially because you've never used Citra on its own and are saying that the citrus came from Summit, Centennial, and/or Amarillo.

Is a warm aroma steep done while cooling? Would a FWH yield similar results? I try to get my wort down to pitch temps asap. More for clarity than fear of contamination.

FWH is nothing like a warm aroma steep. I don't like FWH for IPAs anyway. You're better off bittering with less hops or choosing a low cohumulone variety if you are uber-sensitive.

Never had a problem with clarity or infection, and I've even used the no chill (overnight method). Clarity is not solely affected by the time it takes to chill your wort after the boil. There are many other factors and steps you can take to prevent having a cloudy beer.

Post-boil warm aroma steep (my way) is done like this:

1) Quickly cool wort after boil to 160 F. Do not add flameout hops.
2) Remove wort chiller and rely on a slow-working ice bath for the rest of your cooling.
3) Add your post-boil hops for a warm aroma steep from 160-ish to 65 F during the course of 20-30 min.
4) Rack and ferment as usual.
 
In that recipe, I can say that I see two reasons for the lack of hoppiness. One is the relatively large amount of crystal malt 11% is a lot of crystal in an IPA. It's alot even for an APA but in an IPA a better amount would be 5% or under, or even none at all. Too much crystal can "mute" the hops flavor quite a bit. The second thing I see is the hops schedule leans toward bitterness, and not late hops, although dryhopping can help with that immensely.

What's your water profile like? 10 grams of gypsum in a 5 gallon batch sounds like a lot to me.

Good to know about the crystal (although Ive done a pure 2 row only one with simlar results hopwise). My water is DC water which is very very soft.
 
I would've done Amarillo and cascade exclusively (with citra as my bittering) but the LHBS was out of amarillo. my favorite beer of this style is Rogues Yellow Snow which is Amarillo heavy, but even when i tried it then i couldn't get that intense matching aroma and taste.
 
"grapefruit hop BOMB"

A common problem is using large amounts of ONE hop for dry hopping, looks like what you did. You don't get a complex, intense nose that way.

Try this: mix 1 oz each of Perle, Cascades and Amarillo. Use 1 oz of the mix at 10 minutes, 1 oz @ 5 and use the rest to dry hop AFTER the fermentation is done. This replaces your last five adds. It will smell and taste like grapefruit juice.

I'm curious, why use perle hops? they don't seem to match the style of citrusy hop flavor that im going for.
 
Do you have a water report? "Very soft" doesn't really mean that much. I use RO water and use less than 10 grams of gypsum in a 5 gallon batch of IPA, so something is wonky!
 
bobbrews said:
Post-boil warm aroma steep (my way) is done like this:

1) Quickly cool wort after boil to 160 F. Do not add flameout hops.
2) Remove wort chiller and rely on a slow-working ice bath for the rest of your cooling.
3) Add your post-boil hops for a warm aroma steep from 160-ish to 65 F during the course of 20-30 min.
4) Rack and ferment as usual.

I will have to try this method. Thanks for sharing. When describing taste and aroma of hops, I believe that each person will have a difference of opinion. I had a friend sample a recent IPA that was bittered with Summit and finished/keg hopped with Citra. She told me it smelled like pineapple. I got grapefruit. I guess each person is different. I am partial to a few hop varieties when it comes to my APA styles.
 
I brewed an IIPA with Columbus for bittering, and Summit and Citra late. I got both pineapple and grapefruit, along with orangey notes. Discerning subtle flavors/aromas can be like looking at a cloud pattern to discern what images you see. Everyone may sense something different until they communicate what they sense to the other person and it becomes a collective realization.
 
I agree, hop bursting is the way to go! 5 minute mark for an ipa i usually throw in like 3-4oz at the 5 minute mark, you get a huuuuge aroma/bitterness! Also dry hop, that combo together creates a deadly ipa.
 
So based on the info from the thread, maybe this would be a better way to go:


Water Prep
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
5.00 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 mins)

Mash Ingredients
Amt Name
12 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US 76.2 %
2 lbs Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) 12.7 %
8 ounces Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM)

Boil Ingredients
Amt Name Type
1.00 oz Citra [13.90 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 42.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo [4.70 %] - Boil 20 min Hop 11.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo [4.70 %] - Boil 15 min Hop 10.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [6.20 %] - Boil 10 min Hop 11.5 IBUs
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 10.0 mins) Fining
1.00 oz Amarillo [6.20 %] - Boil 5 min Hop 7.9 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo [4.70 %] Boil 5 min Hop 5.2 IBUs

at flame out:
1.00 oz Cascade [6.20 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 3.8 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo [6.20 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 0.0 IBUs

Dry hop a mix of Amarillo and cascade
 
Although I'm still curious about using Perle, because my favorite IPA, Rogues yellow snow, uses Amarillo and Perle, which doesn't seem to style for an IPA (the Perle that is).
 
I agree, hop bursting is the way to go! 5 minute mark for an ipa i usually throw in like 3-4oz at the 5 minute mark, you get a huuuuge aroma/bitterness! Also dry hop, that combo together creates a deadly ipa.

good idea. Another question: Do you add hops loose or uyse nylon hop bags? I use bags but fir huge additions like this i will mainly just dump them in. I loose wort to the trub that's created but thats no biggie.
 
Based on your water report, here is what I would do. It's very technical, so if you get confused on some details, don't hesitate to ask. Go to themadfermentationist.com and do to your water exactly what he does to his for a hoppy beer, as he's a fellow DC-ite.

I am drinking an IPA that tastes almost exactly like grapefruit pith. I used Simcoe, Chinook and Columbus in heavy doses, almost all of it as a post-boil steep. If you use a bag, you won't get quite as much out of the hops (it helps to move the bag around every few minutes), but you can wring a surprising amount of very hoppy wort out of it at the end.
 
Based on your water report, here is what I would do. It's very technical, so if you get confused on some details, don't hesitate to ask. Go to themadfermentationist.com and do to your water exactly what he does to his for a hoppy beer, as he's a fellow DC-ite.

I am drinking an IPA that tastes almost exactly like grapefruit pith. I used Simcoe, Chinook and Columbus in heavy doses, almost all of it as a post-boil steep. If you use a bag, you won't get quite as much out of the hops (it helps to move the bag around every few minutes), but you can wring a surprising amount of very hoppy wort out of it at the end.

good site. seems like he just puts in 5 grams. A local bar in teh area (smtih commons os doing their monthly homebrew session on their back patio Saturday. Ill ask around there what people do to get that hoppy flavor. But the suggestions here have been helpful.
 
Try using only New Zealand hops...They have everything you are looking for. I recommend Green Bullet, Pacific gem and Riwaka. All fantastic and superior to any common American hop.

New Zealand hops are the finest in the world. Rice extract can help dry out the beer and give the hops some more crispness. Good luck.
 
It seems that several key factors in your water vary quite dramatically (chloride 15 to 146, alkalinity from 29 to 104, etc). In addition to the above recipe advice, you might consider doing a batch with RO water from the store, add 5 grams of gypsum and get a baseline of what that does.
 
It seems that several key factors in your water vary quite dramatically (chloride 15 to 146, alkalinity from 29 to 104, etc). In addition to the above recipe advice, you might consider doing a batch with RO water from the store, add 5 grams of gypsum and get a baseline of what that does.

Yes, that's a big issue. I'd consider paying for a water report ($16.50 from Ward Labs) from your own faucet, or asking other good brewers in your area how they handle this. Ideally, the chloride would be under 100 ppm at all times, but maybe it's not. With the swings in alkalinity as well, water could very easily be the only issue and not your hopping at all.

I'd try the all RO water, and use 5 grams of Calcium chloride for all beers, and 5 grams of gypsum for hoppy beers. Then see where you're at.
 
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