Jamil's Belgian Dark Strong cloying

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jbaysurfer

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So I'm fermenting Jamil's "Brew Like a Homebrewer" Belgian Dark Strong.

I'm using the WL Belgian Blend WLP575, because they didn't have the yeast Jamil called for in Brewing Classic Styles.

When I input the recipe into Beersmith it tells me the expected FG is 1.017.

My OG was 1.105 and now (2 weeks in) it's at 1.028. I took a sample today and it was still cloying...at least if that means what I think it means ;-)...really sweet.

But then I do the math and realize I'm already at 10% abv and 73% attenuation. I looked up the yeast on the website and it says to expect 74%-80% attenuation. Which, even if I get to 80% is only 1.020. The yeast is a Medium-High alcohol tolerant strain, and the fermentation process has slowed considerably. I'm sure I'll get a few more points out of it, but I'm skeptical I'll get down to 1.020 TBH.

So my question is really about how this beer/yeast will age. I'm in no hurry to get it off the yeast cake, and I really hope that cloyingly sweet taste will abate.

Will it?

BTW, I fermented temp controlled to within 1-2 degrees from 68 slowing ramping up to 74 (just yesterday, day 12). I'll hold it at 74 best I can for as long as I can.

I know these beers take a very long time to fully age and mellow, I'm just wondering from somebody who's brewed something as high gravity as this if the cloying at 10% alcohol and a fermentation that's slowing rapidly will take care of each other buy the time the beer is fully aged.

One last question: I'd like to move my beer to a cellar when I'm convinced my fermentation is (almost) completely done. But I've heard these yeasts can really creep along eating those last few points of gravity. Is this inadvisable?

I intend to age it until Christmas.

Thanks in advance!
 
I am a super rookie but I did 3x Belgian that came out sweet. These high gravity beers really need a yeast starter. Mine really did not turn out well. After 90 days it was still on the sweet side.
 
Jamil's recipe has an FG of 1.024 (from brewing classic styles), so you arent tooo far off. I'd probably try and coax an extra few points out of it. Warm it up a few degrees, swirl the fermenter, etc etc.

I bet it'll be better once its carbed up too. It is a fairly sweet style though
 
Thanks for that response. Yes, I did a 1L starter with a stir plate. Plenty of pitching yeast per the beersmith calculator.

I wonder if yours will get any better in time? I've been told by someone who's brewed one of these to expect 8-12 months before it's ready to drink.
 
sockmerchant said:
Jamil's recipe has an FG of 1.024 (from brewing classic styles), so you arent tooo far off. I'd probably try and coax an extra few points out of it. Warm it up a few degrees, swirl the fermenter, etc etc.

I bet it'll be better once its carbed up too. It is a fairly sweet style though
Click to expand...

LOL...of course..consult the book. Why didn't I think of that??? :eek:

Will do on the coaxing. The yeast temp range is 68-75 so I'm probably good on temp right (74f)? I could bump it up to 75, but most my experience is with ales, and I've had my best batches come from fermentations on the low end of the range, so I guess I'm a bit conditioned to not want to go to the high limit. I know RDWHAHB!
 
jbaysurfer said:
So I'm fermenting Jamil's "Brew Like a Homebrewer" Belgian Dark Strong.

I'm using the WL Belgian Blend WLP575, because they didn't have the yeast Jamil called for in Brewing Classic Styles.

When I input the recipe into Beersmith it tells me the expected FG is 1.017.

My OG was 1.105 and now (2 weeks in) it's at 1.028. I took a sample today and it was still cloying...at least if that means what I think it means ;-)...really sweet.

But then I do the math and realize I'm already at 10% abv and 73% attenuation. I looked up the yeast on the website and it says to expect 74%-80% attenuation. Which, even if I get to 80% is only 1.020. The yeast is a Medium-High alcohol tolerant strain, and the fermentation process has slowed considerably. I'm sure I'll get a few more points out of it, but I'm skeptical I'll get down to 1.020 TBH.

So my question is really about how this beer/yeast will age. I'm in no hurry to get it off the yeast cake, and I really hope that cloyingly sweet taste will abate.

Will it?

BTW, I fermented temp controlled to within 1-2 degrees from 68 slowing ramping up to 74 (just yesterday, day 12). I'll hold it at 74 best I can for as long as I can.

I know these beers take a very long time to fully age and mellow, I'm just wondering from somebody who's brewed something as high gravity as this if the cloying at 10% alcohol and a fermentation that's slowing rapidly will take care of each other buy the time the beer is fully aged.

One last question: I'd like to move my beer to a cellar when I'm convinced my fermentation is (almost) completely done. But I've heard these yeasts can really creep along eating those last few points of gravity. Is this inadvisable?

I intend to age it until Christmas.

Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...

Often overlooked: Your perception of sweetness is HEAVILY dependent upon temperature, and carbonation. When you are tasting room temperature fermenting beer, it will taste NOTICEABLY SWEETER than serving temperature. In addition, the carbonic acid, not heavily present in fermenting beer offsets the sweetness.

Good taste exercises. Try a room temperature commercial belgian and a cold one. Let one flatten and try it against a fresh one. Note that even a flat beer has more carbonic acid than still-fermenting beer.
 
jbaysurfer said:
LOL...of course..consult the book. Why didn't I think of that??? :eek:

Will do on the coaxing. The yeast temp range is 68-75 so I'm probably good on temp right (74f)? I could bump it up to 75, but most my experience is with ales, and I've had my best batches come from fermentations on the low end of the range, so I guess I'm a bit conditioned to not want to go to the high limit. I know RDWHAHB!
Click to expand...

You get most of the yeast derived flavor during the first few days of fermentation. At this point you can take it to 30 without it negatively impacting on the taste.
 
sockmerchant said:
You get most of the yeast derived flavor during the first few days of fermentation. At this point you can take it to 30 without it negatively impacting on the taste.
Click to expand...

Did you mean 80?

That's good, because I just watched the thermometer tip up to 76 a minute ago ;-)

Thanks for all the responses. If anyone has any feedback on kegging/bottling/cellaring I'd listen. I have some space in a wine cellar I could use for aging it.

I like to keg stuff, but I'm thinking keg and sugar carbonation rather then force carb like my ales on this one? Or is this style far better off bottle conditioned?

Edit: I see you're from NZ. Perhaps you did mean 30C? That's hotter then I'd like to go, but it's nice to know I don't have to worry about the fusels if I go a degree or two over the upper limit.
 
At the end I do let my Belgians go up towards 30. With ambient and heat from fermentation it gets close on its own.

Personally I'd bottle condition it. But then again I bottle all my Belgian beers.
 
Well I ramped it up to 75-77 since I started posting this, and it's still bubbling, although slowly. I'm going to keep coaxing it and hope I can get a few more points of it. I'll post up next time I take a gravity reading.
 
Wow.. is that supposed to be "cloning" or is it really "cloying"?

Cloying means disgust.. :)

I think I'd like to try that recipe in the near future....
 
I just brewed this recipe a few weeks ago! I did the AG recipe, measured the SG after 2 weeks and I was at 1.022, started at 1.103. This is good attenuation on such a big beer, especially considering there are 2 lbs of crystal malts in there. I'm guessing if you used extract, your FG might be a tiny bit higher.

As others have mentioned, on bigger beers it helps to raise the temperature a bit toward the end. This is important with Belgian yeasts especially, if the temp drops a bit they've been known to flocc out and quit on you.

I used a much larger starter than you did, I went with Jamil's calculator on mrmalty.com and ended up doing a 2L starter, on a stir plate, with 2 smack packs. The yeast he recommends is the Rochefort yeast, you can easily get it from Wyeast or White Labs.

I'm excited to try this beer in 6+ months. What's your fermentation schedule? I'm planning a 4 week primary then right into the bottle. I'm not going to add any extra yeast, I plan to age it for a while so it'll carb up eventually.

Here's a relevant tidbit:

http://www.brewlikeamonk.com/?p=35

If you read that carefully, you'll see that Jamil aged this for 4 years before entering it in the competition. That's a long time to wait.

Good luck with yours! I'll post back in a few months when I crack a bottle.
 
Oh, I forgot to say that I did drink my hydro sample when I tested it a couple weeks in. I would say mine was sweet but certainly not cloying. I agree with what others said, once it's aged, cold, and carbed up it'll taste completely different. Especially since he recommends carbing a little higher than normal, it'll really lighten it up.
 
Yeah, it was all grain for me as well Zach. My temperature control has been very tight as well. but I'll do a sample later today.

Your starter was bigger then mine, but if I can get down to 1.022 on my sample tonight, I'd be pretty stoked. Today is 2 weeks exactly. I think my starter was big enough. The calculator on beersmith has yet to steer me wrong, but I have noticed that Mr. Malty's calculator is more prone to recommend larger starters then the beersmith one.

Regarding the yeast, I live in a place with no LHBS so I stock up whenever I'm down south or up north. When I bought the grain and the yeast til when I brewed didn't allow time for an internet delivery, but I LOVE Rochefort, and would've used it if possible.

Maybe in a couple of years we should swap bottles of this? LOL.

I assume you're going to bottle condition vs. keg?

Edit: Mr. Malty and Beersmith both recommended 1L starter for me (4.75G batch).
 
I wish I was set up for kegging! I'll be bottle conditioning though. How was your mash efficiency? This was my first big beer and my efficiency took a huge hit, going from ~80% down to ~65%. I had to add a little DME to bring the gravity back up, but oh well.

Haha we should definitely swap bottles! I think I'm going to have to bring mine to my parents' house and hide it in their basement, if I keep them anywhere near me there's no way they're going to last more than a few months. I picked up a pack of the O2 absorbing bottle caps and hopefully they'll do their thing and the beer will age well.
 
My mash efficiency was also 65%. That grist was THICK! My forearms felt like I had been rock climbing by the time I finished dough in!

Luckily for me, I had a buddy who slowly dumped grain in as I stirred, helping me out quite a bit.

In the end, I just boiled off to get to my desired OG. My recipe called for a 5 G batch, but I only ended up w/ 4.75...probably less by the time I transfer and leave the trub and cake at the bottom.

It's cool to talk to someone else who is fermenting this beer! I bought BLAMonk and Classic styles just for this recipe/brew.
 
It's reassuring that your efficiency was as low also! I'm doing full boils indoors on my regular kitchen (gas) stove, which works OK even with a 7G boil volume, but unfortunately my boiloff rate has been a consistent 0.5 gallons per hour. So it was much easier for me to add DME than boil it down. I got at least 5.5 gallons in the carboy though, so more beer for me :drunk:

I got BCS as a good basic recipe book when I started AG this winter, and I actually just got BLAM yesterday, I wish I'd read it sooner but it seems like it's going to be a great read.

Yeah the 23 lb grain bill (or whatever it was) was ridiculous. But I saved some of the spent grains and made some really good peanut butter chocolate chip cookies with them, due to the low efficiency (and all the special B!) there was plenty of sugar left in there. I even froze a ziplock of the grains so I can make the cookies again.
 
jbaysurfer said:
Y
Edit: Mr. Malty and Beersmith both recommended 1L starter for me (4.75G batch).
Click to expand...

Did you use two packs/vials in the starter? I think that's what he said to do for mine (unless I wanted a 3.5L starter), though I put in 5.5 gallons as the batch. I think it came out to 1.8L or something, I exaggerated a tiny bit. Maybe your yeast was a lot fresher?

This was my first time with my DIY stir plate and I was amazed at the difference. I had activity in the flask after 20 minutes and it was completely fermented 12 hours later.
 
No, I only used one. I just checked my work, and you're right Mr. Malty recommended two vials for a 1L (slightly more so I exagerrated a bit too).

Beersmith interestingly, tells me that I only need 1 vial/1L/stirplate/96% viability (the yeast was VERY fresh actually) to get 397B cells, and it calculated that I needed 350 for proper pitching.

Mr. Malty I've noticed the growth factor is the biggest determinant if it recommends 1 vs. 2 vial pitches.
 
Shake the **** out of the fermenter and warm it up as close to 80F you can. Shaking will get more yeast in suspension and drive out some CO2 which makes the beer less toxic to the yeast so they can keep going. Warming it up will also help you get a few more points out of it.
 
ReverseApacheMaster said:
Shake the **** out of the fermenter and warm it up as close to 80F you can. Shaking will get more yeast in suspension and drive out some CO2 which makes the beer less toxic to the yeast so they can keep going. Warming it up will also help you get a few more points out of it.
Click to expand...

Dude, given what you are fermenting...I can only assume you know what you're talking about in the yeast department :rockin:

Thanks for slummin' it on the beginner forum and taking the time to respond.
 
Wanted to update you guys on this. I rousted the yeast, and up the temps. Today is day 18 of fermentation, and the airlock (now at 80F) is still bubbling about once a minute or so.

The SG today is 1.022!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh yeah, and it tastes fantastic. The smell is a bit more alcoholic (ABV: 10.9%) but I wouldn't call it "hot" by any stretch. It's going to age nicely. I'm stoked about this beer. Thanks for the support everyone, if I haven't had too many beers between now and then, I'll update you as the beer ages.

I'm a hophead, so this represented a big stretch for me, and I'm officially feeling optimistic!

Cheers!
photobucket-4666-1331876357106.jpg
 
That's a beautiful hydro sample! Nice job getting the gravity down.

I'm going to bottle mine in a couple days.
 

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