Life of sanitizer

Does anyone know A- how long sanitizer lasts and B- what's the best way to store it ? Also how do I know if its too old and won't do the job ? I don't want to have to mix up a new batch every time I want to brew or test or bottle.

Is it Starsan or iphodor? If its iphodor it's one time use if its Starsan it is good until the Ph level drops to a certain level, I don't remember it at the moment. I switched to Starsan and I keep it in a 5 gallon bucket and switch it every few months. There is a YouTube video that Immolatious did over a several month period showing how long it can keep. Check out this video on YouTube:<br/><br/>[ame]http://youtu.be/_niSffyAXO0[/ame].

meh i bought a 32 oz (at least i think its 32 oz) over a year ago, and it isn't even half done. i don't brew that often, but frequently will mix up 2.5 gallons (.5 oz star san), or even less.

point being it lasts a loooong time, and isn't that expensive.

i have heard that people will store it in sealed buckets, and something about it going clear means its not good enough anymore?? pH checking i think is the better way to check if it is still good.

A: as long as it is < 3.0 ph, made with tap water it tends to get cloudy as it looses it's effectiveness.
B: I use a 5 gallon plastic water jug. If you use distilled water it lasts almost indefinitely.
C: I also would recommend a cheep spray bottle, it is handy to have around full of Starsan.

I'm curious how long it can be used.
I typically make up ~4 gallons of it, and because I typically brew ~3 beers a month I have been keeping it in a covered bucket and using it for maybe a month w/o any problems, but I have no idea how long it would last when sanitizing clean stuff.

There are a few podcasts that feature Charlie Talley of 5star chemicals (makers of Star-San). He says 3.5 or below for PH and not cloudy.

Apparently, Star-san reacts with minerals in tap water and when it turns cloudy it is no longer effective.

Link below references the podcasts.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/charlie-talley-five-star-chemicals-notes-brewcasts-58928/

The cloudy myth has been debunked a number of times. Mine turns cloudy the second I make it. As long as you are below the recommended pH you are fine.

With regard to iodophor, it does lose effectiveness over time but according to my reading if it still has a brownish color in the proper dilution, it is good. When it loses the color it has lost it's sanitizing power. On a related note, it is important to use the proper dilution, which is about 1cc of iodophor in 1 liter of water.

Breck09 said:

The cloudy myth has been debunked a number of times. Mine turns cloudy the second I make it. As long as you are below the recommended pH you are fine.

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That is the truth. Mine comes out cloudy from the word go but I haven't had a problem with it yet. Personally I toss mine at the end of every function that requires sanitation so I don't know how long it keeps for me. 1 oz. (5 gallon dose) is $0.52. I'd rather use fresh Star San and be sure then possibly ruin $30 or more in beer because I didn't want to spend $0.52

I have been using Sani-Clean and, with my hard tap water, it does not keep well at all. After a few weeks, bacterial colonies start forming in it. This happens both in my spray bottle and in a sealed bucket. I'm not sure if the poor stability I experience is a result of high water hardness or due to a difference between Sani-Clean and Star-San. I did try a batch with distilled water---it didn't help with the longevity, so I suspect that Sani-Clean is not as stable. But that's just an educated guess.

Generally, I don't keep it longer than a week, and I prefer to keep it only for a few days. Usually, if I'm doing something where the beer is going to be in direct, intentional contact with something, I don't trust sanitizer older than about 3 days. That covers the initial brewing, racking, or bottling. If it's insurance against incidental contact, such as when I'm swapping a blow-off tube for an air lock, I'll use the sanitizer I made at brew-time, even if it was the previous weekend.

The cost is so small relative to a batch, that if I'm at all concerned, I mix up a fresh batch. I usually only make 1.5 gallons at a time, so it lasts a long time.

I'm very careful about the ratio. It's not going bad over days, it's somewhere between a week and maybe 5-6 weeks. I don't particularly want to find out exactly where that line is, so I tread cautiously.

Trokair said:

That is the truth. Mine comes out cloudy from the word go but I haven't had a problem with it yet. Personally I toss mine at the end of every function that requires sanitation so I don't know how long it keeps for me. 1 oz. (5 gallon dose) is $0.52. I'd rather use fresh Star San and be sure then possibly ruin $30 or more in beer because I didn't want to spend $0.52

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You guys are welcome to use it at your own risk. For my money I'll defer to the guys with the equipment, training, experience, and knowledge to determine effectiveness of things I can't see or measure.

The chemist for the company says when it goes cloudy it is no longer effective. Some guy drinking beer in his garage with a $2 pack of high school color change litmus paper is not equal to lab grade equipment and specific post secondary chemistry education.

Use distilled water & it lasts forever. Here at any rate.

Icenine61 said:

You guys are welcome to use it at your own risk. For my money I'll defer to the guys with the equipment, training, experience, and knowledge to determine effectiveness of things I can't see or measure.

The chemist for the company says when it goes cloudy it is no longer effective. Some guy drinking beer in his garage with a $2 pack of high school color change litmus paper is not equal to lab grade equipment and specific post secondary chemistry education.

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If that was the case then I would never be able to use the stuff since it becomes cloudy on contact. I've never had an infection and I usually let my StarSan sit around for a month or two. Believe what you want though. I could care less.

I also could care less what anyone says about the cloudiness of Starsan. I've brewed close to 100 batches, never had one infection. I even share some equipment between sour and regular beers. And I keep my cloudy Starsan around for months on end. Occasionally I'll put a few ml of fresh Starsan in the mix to juice it up.

Guys just because you've "brewed x number of batches with cloudy starsan and not had an infection" that doesn't mean **** frankly.

Sanitization is a precaution we take to ensure that the yeast takes hold and wins the battle or spoilers. Assuming your equipment is properly cleaned prior to using, there's a good chance you won't get an infection even without sanitizing.

Look when I listen to Jamil Zanichev and John Palmer sit down and chat about sanitization with Jon Herskovits (the guy who invented starsan), and I hear Jon say that it's "not effective if the pH is above 3.5 or if it's cloudy", then that's good enough for me, and should be good enough for anybody. John went on to say that the cloudiness is metals precipitating out of solution, and that if you have hard or harder water that the precipitation process can happen immediately. He said if the metals precipitate out immediately then you need to make your starsan with distilled water.

Look, I don't care what any of you guys do in your own brewing, but don't perpetuate wrong information. Who do you think is the better expert?

You can listen to the conversation for yourself here: http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/469

BMGfan said:

Guys just because you've "brewed x number of batches with cloudy starsan and not had an infection" that doesn't mean **** frankly.

Sanitization is a precaution we take to ensure that the yeast takes hold and wins the battle or spoilers. Assuming your equipment is properly cleaned prior to using, there's a good chance you won't get an infection even without sanitizing.

Look when I listen to Jamil Zanichev and John Palmer sit down and chat about sanitization with Jon Herskovits (the guy who invented starsan), and I hear Jon say that it's "not effective if the pH is above 3.5 or if it's cloudy", then that's good enough for me, and should be good enough for anybody. John went on to say that the cloudiness is metals precipitating out of solution, and that if you have hard or harder water that the precipitation process can happen immediately. He said if the metals precipitate out immediately then you need to make your starsan with distilled water.

Look, I don't care what any of you guys do in your own brewing, but don't perpetuate wrong information. Who do you think is the better expert?

You can listen to the conversation for yourself here: http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/469

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Really, so you think that you know better than experienced brewers just because you heard somebody say something and you believe it? I frankly don't care what people say, I move by experience. I question everything that everyone tells me until I prove it to myself. And frankly, Palmer's data on How to Brew is so woefully dated that although I guess he deserves a tip of the hat for setting a good groundwork I really don't pay him too much credence. Why, just last night I read a section he did on autolysis, and it was pretty ridiculous. Palmer is definitely not a scientist.

unionrdr said:

It doesn't matter WHO they are. If it tests out at 3 or lower-meaning acidic-then it's fine & where "Jon" intended it to be function-wise. We've made several of these authors,etc change their tune by proving them wrong. No difference here. And many times,the guy that starts the company isn't always smarter than the people doing the science for him or her. I've seen very successful people with a 5th grade education that you guys would be sure to think are professors. Just goes to show that research & observation are what really drives science. We have the observations,& experiment accordingly. Why does that make us wrong & them right mearly because of their standing???
2+2= 4 regardless of WHO adds it up.

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It does matter when the guy in question is a chemist and invented the product in question.

Look, as I said above you're welcome to do whatever you desire in your own brewing. Really, you'll have beer and as long as you're happy with it that's all that matters. But for my money and the sake of my beer I'm going to listen to the guy who invented the product. When I buy a $30 bottle of starsan that lasts 2 years and makes 160gal of starsan, its not like his reccomendation is meant to line his pockets

unionrdr said:

2+2= 4 regardless of WHO adds it up.

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I'll take the science and the tests over the mouth piece every time. If the PH is <3 then it will santize no matter what color.

Here's the proof you requested.

http://www.forcesolutionsinc.com/team/Charlie-Talley

A small excerpt.

Mr. Talley is a distinguished chemist and a microbiologist. He has over 35 years in the chemical specialty area and 13 years in the microbiological area. This dual role allows he to understand the requirement for personal hygiene products and their roll in a complete sanitary environment.

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The point of this entire disagreement is that you are perpetuating and ultimately promoting untested and off label use of a product to a very new subset of impressionable young brewers. The posters in the beginners board are the ones that will likely have the most difficulty with sanitation issues anyway.

PLUS, you chose to ignore the fact that the guy we are endorsing says you can use the product forever if you use distilled water or that passed through reverse osmosis filters.

So, as I see it we have provided plenty of well tested and reputable sources of information. And there hasn't been adequate reciprocation, and no getting lucky a few times is not a good argument.

Icenine61 said:

The point of this entire disagreement is that you are perpetuating and ultimately promoting untested and off label use of a product to a very new subset of impressionable young brewers. The posters in the beginners board are the ones that will likely have the most difficulty with sanitation issues anyway.

[...]

And there hasn't been adequate reciprocation, and no getting lucky a few times is not a good argument.

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There is no reasonable argument against anyone here describing their process and their experiences. If it doesn't agree with an expert's opinion or experience, that is reason to be skeptical, but you can't simply discard all anecdotal evidence as meaningless. Experts are fallible, and inventors are not automatically the most knowledgable about their inventions.

Less philosophically, lab conditions don't always match practical situations, and experts often describe things in a subtly different language from others. To a microbiologist, sanitizer that is "effective" may need to kill 99.99% of the bacteria after a 1-minute exposure. In the home brewery, "effective" may only require killing 95% in 5 minutes because that's what it takes to bring the actual risk of infection to a tolerable level.

I'm all for following the instructions and employing best practices. However, we should also keep in mind what happens to the new brewers who faithfully obey the instructions on their Mr. Beer kit.

I use distilled water and it still turns cloudy almost immediately.

Side note, in the short time I've been brewing, I have heard a lot of people talking out of their asses. Is there a thread keeping track of homebrew myths?

Krovitz said:

I use distilled water and it still turns cloudy almost immediately.

Side note, in the short time I've been brewing, I have heard a lot of people talking out of their asses. Is there a thread keeping track of homebrew myths?

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There should be! Start one now if you want to be father to a massive and controversial thread! You can add sparging above 170, sugar makes beer cidery, and higher OG beers take longer to carbonate just for the fact that they are higher OG

Icenine61 said:

Here's the proof you requested.

http://www.forcesolutionsinc.com/team/Charlie-Talley

A small excerpt.



The point of this entire disagreement is that you are perpetuating and ultimately promoting untested and off label use of a product to a very new subset of impressionable young brewers. The posters in the beginners board are the ones that will likely have the most difficulty with sanitation issues anyway.

PLUS, you chose to ignore the fact that the guy we are endorsing says you can use the product forever if you use distilled water or that passed through reverse osmosis filters.

So, as I see it we have provided plenty of well tested and reputable sources of information. And there hasn't been adequate reciprocation, and no getting lucky a few times is not a good argument.

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This is a public forum where people express their opinions based on their own experiences , if you don't like it, too bad, get over it.

OK - so how long is the Starsan concentrate good for?

menerdari said:

This is a public forum where people express their opinions based on their own experiences , if you don't like it, too bad, get over it.

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Hi pot, I'm kettle nice to meet you.

Is there any independent testing or research that doesn't come from either the product manufacturer (who has a vested interest in selling more product whether it's necessary or not) or from non scientific experiential evidence of hobbyists?
In the absence of any independent testing, I'd be inclined to lean in favour of my own experience until I am presented with evidence to suggest that this approach is wrong.

WOW, this is good to know!! I usually mix up a new batch of sanitizer for every batch I brew.
Specially for when I'm cleaning out my bottles. I'm guessing that this is overkill? "I'm talking about the pink stuff"

Subscribed to this hate fest!

bottlebomber said:

There should be! Start one now if you want to be father to a massive and controversial thread! You can add sparging above 170, sugar makes beer cidery, and higher OG beers take longer to carbonate just for the fact that they are higher OG

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Also add aluminum kettles are worse than stainless steel, fly sparging works better than batch, liquid yeast needs a starter, etc.

I'm right down the middle on this one. If I mix up a batch of star san when brewing, I will save it for the bottles/keg a couple of weeks later. Then most of it ends up in the carboy washer. I do however like to keep a spray bottle filled with it. Now like a lot of you out there I have the strange urge to spend a fourtune on some stuff and as cheap as possible on something that goes along with it. Like my mom driving 20 miles to use a 20 cent coupon. Getting to the point, It would make sense to use distilled water for mixing up the batch that goes in the spray bottle that sits around for who knows how long. I have DI resin tanks at work. The water would not be steril, the star san would take care of that, but there would be no minerals in it at all.

Any thoughts on making a 1 gallon batch of solution at a time using DI water for use in a spray bottle? I would think it would last like the distilled water would.

While I toss the solution that I use for santizing big stuff (buckets,carboys etc), I keep starsan solution in a spray bottle for months. Seems to be working fine.

P.S. - I've heard somewhere that in an open bucket it will keep for many hours, but in a closed bucket (or in my case spray bottle) it will keep for months.

I'm gonna go ahead and trust my experience (both as a brewer and scientist) with keeping it around, and the peer reviewed literature looking at the bactericidal effects of solutions with a pH below 3.0, that cloudiness from an anionic surfactant is not going to hurt its effectiveness to kill bacteria as long as the pH remains below 3.0.