Braided hose or Manifold? Which is better?

I'm wanting to get into all-grain brewing and building my own MLT from a cooler. I've read many of the posts and seen the different designs. Which is better for the mash tun, the braided hose or the pipe manifold? Which produces a better efficiency?

Another question...I ran across a post on this forum a couple nights ago about the safety concerns with using a plastic cooler and CPVC for MLT's. I can't find that post again so what's the final verdict? Is this low-budget system safe or will I die an early death from mashing out of a plastice cooler?

I'm new to this forum and really enjoying the breadth of info here.

thanks!!

You wont get a definative answer here. Lot of folks prefer all of the available options such as false bottoms, copper pipe, pvc , braid. They all work, and there should be some sticky about it , just do a search. What I can tell you is that I believe braid is cheaper . Its affordable enough to try, and not much is lost if you try to upgrade to the other options. Whatever you try the bulkhead will still be used for either.

JesseRC said:

You wont get a definative answer here. Lot of folks prefer all of the available options such as false bottoms, copper pipe, pvc , braid. They all work, and there should be some sticky about it , just do a search. What I can tell you is that I believe braid is cheaper . Its affordable enough to try, and not much is lost if you try to upgrade to the other options. Whatever you try the bulkhead will still be used for either.

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I beg to differ....That answer is the definitive one.

All I can add is that if you are thinking in the future to Go with a continuous circulation system (HERMS or RIMS) then you want to be looking in the direction of a manifold rather than a braid.

I went with a CPVC manifold. My first braid ended in a stuck mash. The second one came loose. The third one (with a supporting tube with holes) also got stuck. The only stuck sparge since switching to the manifold was when the hose connecting the manifold to the spigot got crushed under the weight of the grain.

I used a hack saw and cut a ton of tiny lines. I don't think I've seen a husk make it through yet.

A manifold is the only filtering mechanism that I haven't tried yet. I did 20+ batches on a braid and had no problems at all. I now have a very large false bottom and its been OK, a little more vorlauf needed to clear grain out but overall it's OK. JesseRC is right though. The braid will cost you a whole $4 to try.

I think you'll find that on average the brewers who batch sparge generally use the braid. Those who fly sparge use a manifold to avoid channeling (almost a requirement). Personally I batch sparge with the braid and have never had a stuck mash, wheat beers included. Just use a half pound of rice hulls per 5 gallon batch of wheat for "cheap" insurance. I generally get 80%+ Brewhouse Efficiency with batch sparging.:rockin:

In my opinion, for a first time all grain batch, the braid is simple, cheap, yet very effective for batch sparging. My little 8" braid works so well I see no need to consider a manifold.

My braid is 30". In a rectangular cooler, you can get away with that. I don't know how that would work out in a round cooler. I had an awful stuck sparge once (not with the braid) and I never want that to happen again.

BTW, the stuck sparge was a wheat in a 2-pail lautertun. Had rice hulls, but they didn't help. Complete loss, that one.

I also use a braid in a rectangular cooler. I get consistant 78% efficiency batch sparging.

I've used a bazooka screen which is pretty much a braid, and I just built a copper manifold.

With my Barley Crusher I ended up with 75% efficiency with both.

Braid is cheaper. Manifold is fun to build.

Loop shaped copper manifold with downward facing slots in a 70qt Coleman Xtreme. Barley Crusher set to factory, consistently over 80%, generally over 85-90%

I bought a 5' stainless wahser hose and cut it in half. I clamped it to my dip tubes in both the MLT and BK. I closed of the ends with 1/2" copper, folded over on one end, and clamped onto that. It stays down under the mash grain.

Because the braid is long, I've never had any problem with sparges sticking, even using oats and rye in a huge stout. Some people use the braids but use short lengths; ordinarily this works fine, but having the extra length is not a drawback, and still works with large grain bills of sticky ingredients.

I have (2) 15" pieces of stainless perf metal that I bought to use as FB's, but haven't set them up because I like the braid.

Do whatever you want.

Nobody responded to the concern about plastics and near-boiling liquids, i.e. the cooler mash tun.

Any thoughts on that?

thanks again!

Well perhaps nobody has any concerns...I don't.

Beavdowg said:

Nobody responded to the concern about plastics and near-boiling liquids, i.e. the cooler mash tun.

Any thoughts on that?

thanks again!

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The temp of strike and sparge water doesn't seem to effect the cooler at all.

I have a 10 gallon igloo cooler I use for my MLT with an 8" SS Braid for the filter. I have probably a dozen plus or so batches through that setup. However, I started experiencing semi-stuck sparges even without using adjuncts or mostly wheat. I found that the problem was stirring too much to try and reduce the dough balls in the mash was causing the braid to crimp near the outlet. Since then I've been working on making a copper mainfold to go inside to replace the braid. Either way, by "upgrading" to the mainfold you won't and can't go wrong. It may cost a little more to begin but it might save you some headache and cost in the future.

That's my .02's worth


BTW are you worried about the "High" temps of sparge water inside the plastic MLT causing some sort of health problems?

I use a hose and have never tried a manifold.

The hose works great except for one time I had a friend over and we were brewing. He was stirring the mash and was doing it quite vigorously. Well when it came time to drain the tun it was stuck hard. No amount of stirring or blowing back into the tun worked.

I was pissed and my friend was very apologetic. I took the round filter I use in my funnel and strained the mash through it getting the most of the wort I could out. I was concerned about the clarity and gravity but it was not an issue. A few weeks later it was very clear and one of my favorite beers!

Beavdowg said:

Nobody responded to the concern about plastics and near-boiling liquids, i.e. the cooler mash tun.

Any thoughts on that?

thanks again!

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Coolers are made of HDPE, so it's not a concern...

Denny said:

Coolers are made of HDPE, so it's not a concern...

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I agree! It's the same properties as items that are used to hold beverages. Unless, someone else has something to add.

But to clear your conscience, why not try and contact someone that is affliated with the "cooler" that you own and see if what they hafta say about the health issues using a "cooler" at elevated temps, ie; 170 + F.

I did my first AG this weekend with a FB from MW supply and it was awesome. I did a Wit recipe that had a lot of wheat and oats and with 1/2lb rice hulls I couldn't believe how easy the running were to drain. At this point I'm super happy with my decision however it was a hard one to get to.

I'd be interested in hearing more from the guys who have had stuck sparges with braids. Specifically:

What type of recipe? Lots of adjuncts? Huge grain bill?

How long was your braid, and in what configuration? (straight, circular, etc.)

If straight, was the end weighted with a plug?

Was it reinforced with a piece of perforated tubing?

I've done about 45 batches with the same circular, reinforced braid and have never had a stuck or slow sparge...the wort drains as fast as the ball valve allows. And honestly, I could probably get away with no vorlaufing...I do a few quarts, just on principle. So I'm just wondering what I'm doing right!

My braid was big enough to clamp onto a 1/2" connection on the inside of my MLT. The end was plugged using a 3/8" capped tube. As I stated before, I had semi-stuck sparges because I (knew) had stirred too much causing the braid to kink near the outlet. I saw this after I dumped the grain and took a GOOD look at the braid.

Since then I've built a "ridgid" 1/2 " copper manifold for my MLT. I will be using it on it's inaugural run soon, very soon. I'll report on it's efficiency, and how well it works versus the "Braid".

BlindLemonLars-

I hope this helps from my stand point. I understand if someone can use a certain system like the "braided" version, and cannot have any problems associated with sparging like you have. To me that depends on if you have modified the braid, at all even a little bit after your next brew. But I suppose with anything there are a certain amount of variables to contend with.

BLL,

I have never "stuck" a sparge w/ my braided mash tun, but I think I have come close a few times w/ a slow runoff. I've even run out of rice hulls and haven't bothered getting more. Once I think I blew some air back through the braid...stirred a bit. Usually when using wheat and oats. I think this results due to the very fine crush on my base grains in addition to the sticky wheat and oats more than anything else.

I agree w/ you, at times I feel like I'm vorlaufing just to do it as there is minimal debris in the first runnings. I mentioned not vorlaufing to the board here as I felt it was questionable the amount of stuff I was eliminating from the boil, the responses were all firm that, vorlaufing is REQUIRED, that's the way it's done. Maybe I'll skip it next bath, hah.

I had a stuck sparge with the braid on my last batch. Combination of many factors. It was a 10 gallon batch of oatmeal stout, tun was way full and had a crapload of oats, no rice hulls. The braid is also somewhat stretched out. I didn't have the end weighted, I think I'm going to put a perforated copper tube through it, or some copper wire so I can form it's shape better.

For what it's worth, the best performance I've ever gotten out of a braid was the version I used on my keg MLT before I put a false bottom in it.

The basic idea is, attach a copper tube to the bulkhead and have it run down to the bottom of the MLT and lay flat. Put a cap on the end, but don't solder it. Drill a few holes in the copper tube just on the bottom, maybe six 1/4" holes. Remove the tube from the cooler and wrap either stainless or copper wiring around the tube spacing each coil by about an inch. Cover that with 3/4" diameter stainless braid from a water heater hookup hose.

This works really well because it supports the braid and holds it down really well. The copper tube also acts as a dip tube if your bulkhead is high off the bottom. The copper/stainless coil keep the braid from sitting flat against the copper tube which would normally block off a ton of open braid area. In a cooler, this is easily done with a single piece of flexible tubing rather than with all the rigid pipe and fittings.

Never used a braid. I had some fun building a copper manifold and the cost isn't really that much more. I used a CNC mill to drill holes at specific spacings and then reamed the copper with drill bits to tear out the torn metal. Then I filed the inside and outside to smooth and then scrubbed the outside with sandpaper to improve it. Oh, and I used a dremel with a drill bit to ream the drilled holes to help clear the torn copper.

Yeah, it was a hassle, but the tubes are smooth now and clean.

hamiltont said:

Those who fly sparge use a manifold to avoid channeling (almost a requirement).

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Glad I read this. I tried my first fly sparge on Saturday and got 62% efficiency when I normally get 70-74%

I bought a SS false bottom but I haven't installed it yet. Those whole 5 minutes are just too much.

Edcculus said:

I went with a CPVC manifold...

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Same here, and I batch sparge. Easy and fun to build. I've used it since my 1st AG and have never looked back. No concerns on the plastic in coolers creating any off-flavors or any other such problems.

manifold you can batch sparge OR fly sparge

Braid your are just batch sparging


People have done great with both methods

I had a braid found out I was WAY to ham handed and crushed it 3 out of the 4 times I tried using it and had to replace it twice..... so went with a false bottom no more crushed braids...

If your NOT an idiot like myself then have fun with a braid its much cheaper and will get you started just fine untill if/when you decide you want a false bottom/manifold......

So to give you a direct answere.....Whichever... :cross:

Good info in here already, but I might as well give my 2 cents. I batch sparge fwiw.

I have a bazooka screen (braid) and false bottom in a cooler. I've done several batches on each and personally like the braid quite a bit better because: a)it flows much better b) it was cheap (even cheaper if you make your own) and c)leaves less wort behind. It's also a little easier to clean which is nice after a long brew day.

The only thing I like better about the false bottom is that I don't worry as much about damaging it when stirring. The braid seems like it could get messed up if I hit it too hard, although this hasn't been an issue so far.

Crap, looks like I need to gather some info and update my This Vs. That sticky. Update forthcoming!

BlindLemonLars said:

I'd be interested in hearing more from the guys who have had stuck sparges with braids.

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I've don e 344 batches with the same braid. I don't do anything to hold it down. I've used all types of grists, from 8 lb. to 28 lb. of grain, and never had a stuck runoff.

OK here goes...
I'm fairly new, in calender terms to brewing. I have done half a dozen extract recipes and 10 AGs over the last year. My experience seems to be unique.
I started AG with a home made 48qt cooler mash tun with a self fabricated braid strainer, 18" SS supply line with end crimped(no solder or copper cap). It worked well with no stuck sparges. I did have to put the cooler on a tilt to stop leaving over a gallon behind. This is the reason that I made a cpvc manifold. I brought the dead space(?) down to 3cups in a water only trial. However, the manifold came apart while stirring in my first mash. I went back to the braid and either tilt it or account for the extra loss with my mash out.

luvmy40 said:

OK here goes...
I'm fairly new, in calender terms to brewing. I have done half a dozen extract recipes and 10 AGs over the last year. My experience seems to be unique.
I started AG with a home made 48qt cooler mash tun with a self fabricated braid strainer, 18" SS supply line with end crimped(no solder or copper cap). It worked well with no stuck sparges. I did have to put the cooler on a tilt to stop leaving over a gallon behind. This is the reason that I made a cpvc manifold. I brought the dead space(?) down to 3cups in a water only trial. However, the manifold came apart while stirring in my first mash. I went back to the braid and either tilt it or account for the extra loss with my mash out.

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If using a braid, and you want to reduce your dead space, you can try adding a small extension to the valve nipple in the cooler , say a piece of hose just a few inches long and flexible enough to bring the braid all the way down flat to the cooler bottom. This helped me reduce my dead space.

That's basically what I did with the copper tubing above. Even with I had my braid in a cooler, I ran a 6" piece of soft copper down to the bottom of the cooler and clamped the braid over it.

Bobby_M said:

For what it's worth, the best performance I've ever gotten out of a braid was the version I used on my keg MLT before I put a false bottom in it.

The basic idea is, attach a copper tube to the bulkhead and have it run down to the bottom of the MLT and lay flat. Put a cap on the end, but don't solder it. Drill a few holes in the copper tube just on the bottom, maybe six 1/4" holes. Remove the tube from the cooler and wrap either stainless or copper wiring around the tube spacing each coil by about an inch. Cover that with 3/4" diameter stainless braid from a water heater hookup hose.

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Bobby. That is pretty much the design I am going for in an upcoming build. I have to say very ingenious using the stranded wire to keep the braid from laying against the pipe.
One question though. Why not hard connect the cap? You said you don't solder the cap on the copper pipe.

I'm going to batch sparge, using a single infusion. I'm not super-concerned about hitting an exact efficiency, although obviously I'd like it to be a good one.

Some other criteria are that there will be no:

- going to 10 gallons.
- fly sparging
- complex manifolds
-false bottoms
- Rims, Herms, or other nuclear-powered systems
- etcetera

That being the case (and, of course, I'm going to build the standard 10 gal. MLT cooler conversion), I'm just going to use the braid. It may seem too simple and cheap for some people, but that's the way I like it. I'm a KISS kinda guy, I suppose.

Zen_Brew said:

Bobby. That is pretty much the design I am going for in an upcoming build. I have to say very ingenious using the stranded wire to keep the braid from laying against the pipe.
One question though. Why not hard connect the cap? You said you don't solder the cap on the copper pipe.

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Just for being able to clean the tube once in a while. If you find the cap fits too loose, you can lay a piece of teflon tape over the end of the tube before you jam the cap on. It will further be held on by the hose clamp that you use to secure the braid on that end.

I started with the braid, it did the job, but I made a copper manifold and could not be happier. I had trouble with the braid due to hitting it with the paddle leading to problems of the braid floating up and getting smashed. A hard connected manifold requires 1 second to connect, stays put and is easy to clean. It took a few hours to make, but the lack of stress on brew days has paid off. I wouldn't consider going back to the braid for a second. Your mileage may vary.

Thanx Bobby. I knew it was gonna be a simple reason I was missing. I think I will do that method, but put one piece of CPVC coupling between the copper pipe and the brass ball valve to break up the heat sink action and help keep the copper pipe and ball valve from leeching too much heat from the cooler during mash