StarSan questions

I just had a couple of questions regarding StarSan. Everywhere on the bottle says its toxic and don't get in contact with your skin, don't ingest it, etc. But then in all the videos online people are just spraying it on everything, cleaning out their carboys with it, then siphoning their wort right into it. When it is so diluted is it not toxic and not affect the taste of the final product?

When diluted at the proper rate, its fine. A concentrated dose could be an irritant. Most cleaning products (for beer or otherwise) work the same way. Bleach comes to mind, chlorine too.

It's because lawyers like to make sure that their client's asses are covered so they insist on warning labels to make sure that noone sues....That doesn't necessarily mean that things are as uber dangerous as those labels lead us to believe.....

It's even the same way with Government labelling. Starsan actually kills faster than the contact time on the label states.....but because of FDA mandates they have to state the contact time they do....

Rather than speculate or operate from ignorance and fear, why don't you just go straight to the horses mouse. This is a great podcast with Chuck Talley, the creator of it. Explaning everything you could conceive about it....

March 29, 2007 - Sanitizing with Bleach and Star San
Charlie Talley from Five Star Chemicals tells us best practices in using household bleach and Star San in sanitizing equipment.

http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr03-29-07.mp3

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Great link Revvy. I've heard that podcast before but forgot a lot of it. Thanks for posting!

woody34 said:

When diluted at the proper rate, its fine. A concentrated dose could be an irritant. Most cleaning products (for beer or otherwise) work the same way. Bleach comes to mind, chlorine too.

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It might be fine for you, but that does not mean that it is fine for everybody.

If I touch Starsan diluted to the proper rate, I get a severe skin burns.

-a.

ajf said:

It might be fine for you, but that does not mean that it is fine for everybody.

If I touch Starsan diluted to the proper rate, I get a severe skin burns.

-a.

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Each person is different. Properly diluted Star San is completely safe for MOST people. I actually wash my hands with it while brewing. If it causes skin irritation for you, then be careful, but MOST people will have no problems at all.

When I handle the proper diluted mix of starsan on brew day, it really dries my hands out, to the point of mild pain. Back to normal in 2-3 days.

I have no problems at all with it when diluted properly but I will say that I always get dry skin on my hands after a brew day. I suspect the star san.

el_horno said:

When I handle the proper diluted mix of starsan on brew day, it really dries my hands out, to the point of mild pain. Back to normal in 2-3 days.

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I bought a pair of the blichmann gloves and that solved the dry hands problem.

I've had it strip some skin off my hands, but its no big deal.

DrummerBoySeth said:

I actually wash my hands with it while brewing.

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Me too. I'm constantly dousing myself with it. LOL No problems for me in the slightest. But of course there's lots of variability in people's skin sensitivity.

DrummerBoySeth said:

Each person is different. Properly diluted Star San is completely safe for MOST people. I actually wash my hands with it while brewing. If it causes skin irritation for you, then be careful, but MOST people will have no problems at all.

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This, i was ADD when cutting strawberrys for my 2ndary and kept dipping my knife and hands into some starsan i had in a bowl lol...and kept drizzling it on the cutting board every few minutes.

Im gonna start using more spray bottles for starsan though, i find im going through it way too fast...spraying something down with a spray bottle seems way more economical than making 5 gallons that goes bad in a few days(atleast for me).

"Rather than speculate or operate from ignorance and fear, why don't you just go straight to the horses mouse. This is a great podcast with Chuck Talley, the creator of it. Explaning everything you could conceive about it...."

Yup,,, and the guy who invented DDT said it was harmless.

Yah, I'm a little hesitant about "no rinse" chemicals going into my beer. I would much rather rinse everything out with water, but you have to maintain sanitation, so what do you do?

I have never used no rinse chemicals before and only suffered one infection, and that was because of stupidity and first time attempting an all grain with a friend who had never brewed before.

So how long should you wait before using anything that has been sanitized with starsan? I mean you wouldn't immediately spray everything down with starsan and then start exposing your beer to it would you? Why not just dump it into the wort? Ok that last question was more of a joke, but maybe? ;p

I've spritzed everything with starsan and never had an issue that I could directly attribute to it. (I do fear the foam, though...) My bigger problem was with cheap-azz spray bottles breaking (X2). I bought a Rubbermaid spray bottle at HD that seems a little more sturdy.

I am in the spray bottle camp and also tend to rinse in large volumes, carboys, and return the starsan to the storage container. After reading the posts here I feel fortunate not to have suffered from skin irritation or worse. I do spray down everything each an every time it might come in contact with my wort once it drops below 170 degrees. I am a bit of a paranoid and feel it is better to be safe than sorry. With all that said, there have been a few brew nights, after a few too many home brews, where I have dunked a clean un-sanitized spoon, whisk or thermometer right into that wort. Sometimes there have been infection resulting in over carbonation. In fact most times it has been OK. Maybe in the end it all comes down to whether or not the beer gods are smiling on you that day.

Spray bottle of Starsan sits on the counter 24/7 not just on brew days... We use it for spraying fruits and vegetables that will be eaten raw or unpeeled, cutting boards and other itams that are used everyday. A spray or two on the fruits/veggies and a good rinse (I rinse off foods as well as utensils that do not like acid) is SOP in our house. We are not germophobes, but just cautious about eating foods that have been picked as well as picked over by any number of people.


CHUNKING "I mean you wouldn't immediately spray everything down with starsan and then start exposing your beer to it would you?"

I do it all the time.. Spray and while still wet use tubing, fermenters, hydrometers, spoons and pretty much anything else that should be sanitized before use. On bottling day my bottles get a good spray on a vinator and the neck gets dunked then while still wet (and a little foamy) they get filled and capped with a cap that got a quivk bath in Starsan.

bosco

I usually bathe in it on brew day before I put on my decontamination suit.

You can never be too careful when it comes to protecting your beer from infection...

VladOfTrub said:

"Rather than speculate or operate from ignorance and fear, why don't you just go straight to the horses mouse. This is a great podcast with Chuck Talley, the creator of it. Explaning everything you could conceive about it...."

Yup,,, and the guy who invented DDT said it was harmless.

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Then don't use it, it's your choice. That's the wonderful thing about this hobby. Use what works for you. The information's there. Whether you want to accept it or not is your choice. Some folks still believe the earth is flat. Oh well.

CGVT said:

I usually bathe in it on brew day before I put on my decontamination suit.

You can never be too careful when it comes to protecting your beer from infection...

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OH MY GOD, it's TAKE SOME ADVICE. *run* :fro:

And as I said on other threads, remember when you go out to eat fast food joints and restarants all* us no rinse sanatizer of some sort.

EnjoyGoodBeer said:

And as I said on other threads, remember when you go out to eat fast food joints and restarants all* us no rinse sanatizer of some sort.

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And if you drink milk, you're being exposed to it too.....In fact it's probably Iodophor.

Everything and I mean EVERYTHING gets a healthy dose of StarSan on brew day. I usually have half my sink with a full solution as well as a spray bottle so I'm never too far when I need it. The lid of my bucket and my beer thief get very healthy doses before I take hydro sample and the lid gets yet another healthy dose after I put it back on. My friends who help me bottle always get a little nervous when they see me filling a bottle that still has foam in it. I then inform them that the beer they're currently enjoying came out of a bottle that was filled the same way. StarSan is also the only thing that get's put in my airlocks. If there's any suck back, my beer just got a little yeast nutrient. OxyClean and StarSan are a brewer's best friends.

So in theory, couldn't you add some starsan directly to the cooled wort and aerate everything, get it all mixed up and wait for the starsan to do it's job, then pitch the yeast into the newly sanitized wort? I know this isn't much different from spraying the fermenter first and adding the wort, but this way if something got into your wort post boil / while cooling, the starsan will kill anything and everything in the wort and then pitch yeast.

I'm only asking cause I'm ignorant.

chungking said:

So in theory, couldn't you add some starsan directly to the cooled wort and aerate everything, get it all mixed up and wait for the starsan to do it's job, then pitch the yeast into the newly sanitized wort? I know this isn't much different from spraying the fermenter first and adding the wort, but this way if something got into your wort post boil / while cooling, the starsan will kill anything and everything in the wort and then pitch yeast.

I'm only asking cause I'm ignorant.

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No. The wort will deactivate the sanitizing properties of the StarSan. Which is why you can add wort directly to a wet fermentor. Listen to the pod cast or do some reading....Or just use bleach.

chungking said:

Yah, I'm a little hesitant about "no rinse" chemicals going into my beer. I would much rather rinse everything out with water, but you have to maintain sanitation, so what do you do?

;p

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At the start of my brewday I always put some starsan in my carboys, fill to the top with tap, and let it sit for a few hours. When Im ready to fill them with wort I pour them out and rinse with tap. I know its not supposed to matter if a little diluted starsan gets into the wort, but this is what I do. Someone brought it up that this is counterproductive since tap is not properly sanitized, but I have never, and repeat Never, had an infection or an off flavor from bacteria. There will always be a small amount of bacteria in the wort, but the hops help kill them and the yeast will create alcohol which is also disinfecting. I am not saying sanitizing is not necessary, it absolutely is, but it shouldnt cause as much worry as it probably does in most brewers. ( when i started brewing I worried about every little thing, now certain things like sanitizing are second nature and I dont worry about it at all)

Truly unless you have a very nice setup, its difficult to sanitize everything perfectly, but if you take the effort to clean your equipment as much as possible, you will be ok. Relax, have a homebrew

If you are just going to rinse it off, why use StarSan?

Kingfish said:

If you are just going to rinse it off, why use StarSan?

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This, there is no point if your just rinsing it off with water afterwords. At that point you may as well just go with something way cheaper like bleach.

FuzzeWuzze said:

This, there is no point if your just rinsing it off with water afterwords. At that point you may as well just go with something way cheaper like bleach.

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Theres no way I would get bleach near my beer, i hate the smell the odor, everything about it. I have friends who sanitize with it and i swear i can detect it in the aroma. I am mainly soaking in starsan to kill any residual bacteria in the carboys, and also to disolve sediment, remove dust particles, etc. The amount of bacteria in tap water is actually pretty negligible, especially if im just rinsing it out once the starsan has been used. Theres still bacteria in it, but Ive never had an issue with an infection- im just saying yes in theory everything that touches the wort should be completely sanitized, but in practice what Ive been doing has proven positive results. To be clear I strictly advise all possible sanitation, but also have the opinion people are overly concerned with it in general.

As a side note when i first started brewing beer me and a friend used to go right down to the spring, grab water in buckets and use tgat to fill the wort in a partial boil brew. The beer was fantastic, yet we didnt stetalize the water. Was there bacteria in the water? Absolutely. But our equipment was clean and out process was sound, so there beer turned out great. There is tyipically enough sanitization with the hops and alcohol to kill the bugs. But one should always use sanitized equipment and ingredients where possible.

3sheetsEMJ said:

To be clear I strictly advise all possible sanitation, but also have the opinion people are overly concerned with it in general.

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Says the guy who washes out the NO RINSE sanitizer, because hes overly concerned

FuzzeWuzze said:

Says the guy who washes out the NO RINSE sanitizer, because hes overly concerned

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Haha yeah I knew it was just a matter of time before someone said this.

I guess I am contradicting myself, but like a mad scientist I go by results not theory  and so far my beers have been crystal clear ( if the style calls for it) with no infection or off flavors. So to each their own I guess...

3sheetsEMJ said:

Haha yeah I knew it was just a matter of time before someone said this.

I guess I am contradicting myself, but like a mad scientist I go by results not theory  and so far my beers have been crystal clear ( if the style calls for it) with no infection or off flavors. So to each their own I guess...

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That is the problem though. YOU....YOU have had no issues. What about the next guy who does have issues with his water and follows your advise?

I love starsan, It's basically 2 food grade acids. Phosphoric acid is commonly used in the food industry for multiple things, just check the ingredient list on Coke. Dodecylbenzenesulfonic Acid is used to make detergents, it acts as a surfactant so it clings to the items you are sanitizing or cleaning. They are acids and some folks are more sensitive than others, I for example barely feel the burn from 35% sulfuric acid (battery acid) after 5 min. on my arm, and sulfuric is an extremely aggressive acid to organic compounds.

Kingfish said:

That is the problem though. YOU....YOU have had no issues. What about the next guy who does have issues with his water and follows your advise?

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If the "next guy" is in an area where the water is contaminated in such a way that rinsing with tap after soaking in starsan causes issues, then I would advise not doing that... ;-) This however is not an issue with me.

Additionally, if someone is having infection issues because they are ONLY following MY guidelines, then chances are they are not using the full opportunity of this forum. These forums are for posting opinions, we're not writing textbooks, we are letting other people know what works for US, because we have tried many things.

I would hate to mislead someone with advise that would cause them to make a mistake in brewing, which is why I said I advise strict santitation in all aspects of brewing.

My point was very minor. So... Can we move on now?

Originally Posted by chungking
Yah, I'm a little hesitant about "no rinse" chemicals going into my beer. I would much rather rinse everything out with water, but you have to maintain sanitation, so what do you do?

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Water can kill if too much is used or used improperly. Many people have drowned to death from it. Just use some common sense and you'll be okay.

cosmo said:

Yah, I'm a little hesitant about "no rinse" chemicals going into my beer. I would much rather rinse everything out with water, but you have to maintain sanitation, so what do you do?

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But don't you get it? In the case of Starsan "no rinse chemicals" are NOT going "into your beer" they are breaking down in the presence of yeast into benign compounds that are even present in softdrinks. It becomes a yeast nutrient. Like we've said repeatedly listen to one of the podcasts, either basic brewing or brewstrong with Charlie Talley, instead of freaking out from sheer ignorance.

Here's a summation from antother thread of the Brewstrong podcast.

There was an episode where Justin tells the maker of StarSan (Charlie Talley) that he racked a 5 gallon batch onto something like a gallon of starsan, realized it happened, and then dumped the batch. Charlie basically told him that the beer should have turned out just fine. The constituent of StarSan would break down to fairly normal ions and actually feed the yeast. That might not have directly applied to finished beer but under a quart and I bet you won't even notice. It is food grade, no rinse, and a weaker acid than you find in your stomach at the recommended concentrations; you are diluting it massively with something like a 4.5 pH beer so you won't even really acidify your batch much. I say drink it. Then, if you aren't convinced that the impact was nothing to worry about, try this: take a glass of another batch and compare to another glass of the same beer but with a similar starsan concentration added (just less than an ounce added to a pint by my rough math). Then, take another pint and add the same amount of tap water. I am willing to bet, if you make the starsan with RO or DI water, you notice the minerals in the tap water before the starsan beer.

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If you are worried about chemicals or whatever is the cause of a mild paranoia, you can always rinse the Starsan out after thoroughly sanitizing with it. I always do and have no issues with contamination at all. It is just extra work.

Sorry if his has been posted already; there is a lot to read through up here...

loud1 said:

I for example barely feel the burn from 35% sulfuric acid (battery acid) after 5 min. on my arm, and sulfuric is an extremely aggressive acid to organic compounds.

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:rockin::rockin:
id like to see what other experiments you conduct on yourself

djonas said:

If you are worried about chemicals or whatever is the cause of a mild paranoia, you can always rinse the Starsan out after thoroughly sanitizing with it. I always do and have no issues with contamination at all. It is just extra work.

Sorry if his has been posted already; there is a lot to read through up here...

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That's the whole point of this discussion.......No Rinse doesn't mean "Rinse if you're chicken" it means NO RINSE.

djonas said:

If you are worried about chemicals or whatever is the cause of a mild paranoia, you can always rinse the Starsan out after thoroughly sanitizing with it. I always do and have no issues with contamination at all. It is just extra work.

Sorry if his has been posted already; there is a lot to read through up here...

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So why even buy the stuff if you're not going to use it as it was intended? Think of it as a yeast nutrient. I did an experiment with 2 bottles that had been soaking in StarSan with about an ounce in each and filled them with beer. I then opened one for my friend (blind to it) and one for myself. I asked if it tasted any different than any of the other bottles he had had and he said it didn't. I couldn't taste anything different either. Didn't even notice a difference in mouthfeel or viscosity.