Overhopped Amber IPA?

I keep tossing around the idea of making an IIPA without the high alcohol content, and then also making it in an amber variation. Here's what I have in mind so far, though I'm considering adding some Victory to it:

5.8 gal yield with 4 gal boil

6 lbs ultralight LME 7* L (flame out)
2 lbs Bavarian wheat DME
1 lb light DME
1/2 lb crystal 40
1/2 lb crystal 80
1/2 lb carapils
1 oz Centennial (10%) @ 60 mins
2.5 oz Centennial @ 15/5 mins
2 oz Centennial for 14 day dry hop
WLP 001

1.065/1.016
11* SRM+
100 IBU's
6.5% ABV+ (I often get up to 0.5% higher so I like to leave room for that)

What do you think? What would you change?

I think it is a bit overhopped. You are going to find that IPAs have higher ABV and higher IBUs for a reason...the IBUs balance the ABV and vice-versa.

When you start throwing high IBUs at a lower gravity beer with less malt body, like an amber, you kinda throw that balance out of wack to where you are showcasing the hop bitterness.

If you like hop bitterness, go for it. Nothing wrong with that recipe, just note that you are going to taste almost no malt character up front and through the middle of the palate, it's going to be almost all hop bitterness. Some peeps like that, but most don't.

7 oz of late hop additions is just too much. It looks like you were purposely focusing on the flavor and aroma additions and downplaying the bittering addition, so you were on the right track, but you are just doing so much late additions that it is going to contribute quite a bit to bitterness anyway.

I'd tone those 15/5 additions down to 1.0-1.5 oz each, and keep the dry hop to 7 days before bottling/kegging instead of 14. There's not much to be gained by dryhopping for 14 days instead of 7-10. I think you get the best, freshest dry hop aroma into you beer if you dryhop for 7 days. Play with the numbers, but I think you want this beer to be closer to 60 IBUs for the amber malt character to show up like it should.

Centenial is friggin awesomely smooth as a flavor hop if you don't overdo it, and has great floral aromas that compliment an amber nicely, so great hop choice!

That's what I'd do.

Great point Topher. I think of the new trend of "session IPA", many of those beers are extremely one dimensional, and while full of hops flavor and aroma, they're also overly bitter IMO. They always strike me as lacking character.

I would say for something like you have, 70-80 IBU should be your top end, and the vast bulk of those IBU should come from late additions. Go very light on the bittering hops, like maybe a half oz of centens, move the rest to late adds and maybe even beef those late adds up to make up the IBU. Other than that, I like your recipe. Hopped up ambers and reds (darker pale ales) are really nice if done properly.

There is a ibu to gravity ratio. Ibu divided by og. So 100 ibu divided by 65 = 1.53 a perfectly balanced beer is at .5, you don't want to exceed 1.00. The higher you are the more bitter, the lower the more malty. I brewed an ipa with 75 ibus and a gravity of 66 and its overly bitter. So I can't imagine 100 ibus with a gravity of 65. Either raise the gravity or drop The ibus. But no one can tell you what you like. So maybe it will turn out awesome , if that's the way you like your beer

There's also a difference in the perception of bitter flavor between 30 IBU from a bittering addition and 30 IBU from late adds. Say you take the same gravity wort, split in half; hop half to 30 calculated IBU with a 60 min add, the other half to 30 with a 5 minute add. The first beer is going to be quite bitter, with almost no hops flavor or aroma. The second will still be bitter, but the perception of that bitterness with be much lower, it will come across as a very bitter hop flavor. The BU:GU ratio is great, but you also need to pay attention to where those IBU come from in the boil.

I do enjoy bitter.

In the beginning I came at my IPA's with a balanced hopping approach and have found them all to be quite bitter. Similar to Ranger, which I really like. But I'm now attempting to bring out the hop flavor as I typically find it in many other American IPA's, and so I've reduced my bittering addition and swung it around to the other additions. I've yet to have one mature to try though.

But if it will end up being way out of proportion than I will reduce the IBU's. I had read something about the hops giving beer a nice cold fighting ability and came up with the idea to try an IIPA with IPA alcohol content. I am also assuming that it will end up being 7% ABV as about 85% of my beer get an extra 0.5% ABV, especially the higher in content they are. But even at 7% it'd still be way out of whack!

Another reason I ended up with 8 oz of Centennial for it is that I can get a good deal on an 8 oz package from MoreBeer and figured I'd use it all up in the one.

I'll adjust it and try to target 80-85 IBU's to see...

Thanks!

If you KEG;;; I say go for it because you can always let it age or use it as a beer to blend with.

If you BOTTLE: I would scale back the bitterness...

You can always brew it again with more hops.

DPB

rodwha said:

I do enjoy bitter.

In the beginning I came at my IPA's with a balanced hopping approach and have found them all to be quite bitter. Similar to Ranger, which I really like. But I'm now attempting to bring out the hop flavor as I typically find it in many other American IPA's, and so I've reduced my bittering addition and swung it around to the other additions. I've yet to have one mature to try though.
I'll adjust it and try to target 80-85 IBU's to see...

Thanks!

Click to expand...

You've got the right idea. One thing I've been doing for a lot of flavor and aroma w/o throwing the IBU off the charts is a flameout steep/whirlpool. I add my "0" min hops to a gentle whirlpool, cover and let steep for ~20 mins, or until the wort drops below, say, 200 F. I go for a sizable addition here, some times it's even the bulk of the hops for things like IPA. It gives big flavor and aroma, and yeah, it'll add a little IBU (maybe like that of a 5 min add), but it's the kind of bitterness that will just meld with the flavor to make it come across like a fresh, bitter hop.

I spoke before I changed things up in the calculator.

I've gone for 70 IBU's instead as I've yet to see what my changes in the additions have done, and as was said I can always rebred it with more hops later.

So I've added 1/4 lb light DME and 1/2 lb of Victory which brought the OG up to 1.068 (though it'll likely be over 1.070) and dropped the flavoring, aromatic, and dry hopping to 1.5 oz. And I'll dry hop for 7-10 days as suggested.

Thanks fellas!

I do love bitter! But I'm considered strange in that I also love extremely burn your face off spicy hot, and strong black coffee...So maybe I would enjoy an overly bitter IPA.

I only bottle.

rodwha said:

I do love bitter! But I'm considered strange in that I also love extremely burn your face of spicy hot, and strong black coffee...So maybe I would enjoy an overly bitter IPA.

I only bottle.

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The best advice I can give you towards your IPA experimentation; never shy away from hops. Especially late/knockout hops. Or bittering hops really, to a lesser degree. And, if you like caramel-y flavors in your IPAs, definitely don't hesitate to throw a little more hops into the mix. I like a punch in your face type IPA/IIPA, super bitter, super hoppy, enough caramel flavors to keep it in balance without getting away from being dry and crisp.

How would you come at this Nord?

I love bitter and overly done typical American IPA's. I assume the ones I have tried are at the far reaches of the IBU spectrum (70) and could take that further...

Has anyone made an amber IPA?

Here's my latest:
6 lbs ultralight LME (flame out)
2 lbs wheat DME
1 1/4 lbs light DME
1/2 lb crystal 40
1/2 lb crystal 80
1/2 lb carapils
1/2 lb victory
1/4 lb light DME (starter - I know, I know, I toss it in anyway)
1 oz Centennial (10%) @ 60 mins
1 1/2 oz Centennial @ 15/5 mins and 7-10 day dry hop
WLP 001

For my IPAs, I shoot for ~50 IBU from the bittering, or FW addition. I really like FWHs for IPA. Then a few ozs at 10-5 mins, and another few for that whirlpool steep. Since you're going for something with more caramel character with your grain bill, I'd say up those late adds to 4 ozs 10-5 and 4 whirlpool. That's pretty typical of IPA I make, and I do both really pale, dry IPAs and ones with some pronounced caramel character and sweetness.

An example of extreme, to give you an idea; my last brew was a Heady Topper clone. Simple grain bill, 90% pale ale malt, and some carapils and corn sugar. FWH to ~60 IBU with hop extract and then three 6 oz additions between 5 mins and whirlpool. It's also getting two rounds of dry hopping, 3 oz each. That's an extreme case, no need to go for a pound and a half of hops for good IPA, but to do things like Pliny, Heady, Abrasive, any of the real hop bombs, a pound or more is not unheard of for 5 gallons.

If I were to up the flavoring, aromatic, and dry hop o 2 oz it would only leave me with one oz to figure up a brew with and would bump the IBU's to 82.2.

I'm curious... But I feel like I ought to see what I think of my other 70 IBU IPA's where I stole from the bittering addition and gave to the later additions (the ole Robin Hood move).

There's no one else around who would help me drink it if it were just a little too bitter. I'm trying to turn SWMBO on to IPA's, and she's getting a little more accustomed to them, but would certainly choose something else. I'm now going to brew a 2 gal batch of pale ale that is given 45 IBU's to help push her over!

1 lb light DME (flame out)
1 lb light DME
1/4 lb crystal 20
1/4 lb crystal 40
1/4 lb carapils
0.175 oz Centennial (10%) @ 50 mins
0.3 oz Centennial @ 15/5 mins
0.225 oz Centennial for 7-10 day dry hop
WLP 001

4.9% ABV
45 IBU's
7* SRM

"For my IPAs, I shoot for ~50 IBU from the bittering, or FW addition. I really like FWHs for IPA. Then a few ozs at 10-5 mins, and another few for that whirlpool steep. Since you're going for something with more caramel character with your grain bill, I'd say up those late adds to 4 ozs 10-5 and 4 whirlpool. That's pretty typical of IPA I make, and I do both really pale, dry IPAs and ones with some pronounced caramel character and sweetness."

So what is the overall IBU's?

I've heard a lot about Pliny the Elder and Heady Topper, but they aren't available here. If they are I don't know where.

I've read a bit on people doing a FWH addition. What exactly is that?
And how does a 0 min addition add to the beer vs a 5 min or dry hop?

Small batches are great for something like this. You can brew a lot of them and you don't have to spend a paycheck on hops for each brew day.

Should I maybe abandon this super bitter IAA and make it an IPA instead and make my IAA with a standard 70 IBU's so as to allow the crystal and victory to be more pronounced?

I was considering brewing this or a barleywine, and maybe 1 other beer. I only get $70/mo for brewing, but I spend up to $10 or so more and then go to the LHBS to spend more on my grains and muslin bags. So I'm really spending closer to $90-100.

rodwha said:

So what is the overall IBU's?

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For that one, I believe just under 100, assuming there's not much IBU from the 0 min steep.

rodwha said:

I've read a bit on people doing a FWH addition. What exactly is that?
And how does a 0 min addition add to the beer vs a 5 min or dry hop?

Click to expand...

FWH is adding the hops to the wort as soon as it comes out of the mash. For extract, you can just add the hops after you steep and add everything to the kettle. Not quite the same, but it does work.

The "0" min addition, if you steep it for ~20 mins before chilling, will add a lot more aroma than a 5 min, and a lot more flavor than a dry hop. It just lends nicely to the overall hops character of the beer.

Are you using software?

I use Hopville.

I may have to give the 0 min addition a try. I've always changed a 0 min to a 5 min because at flameout I'm adding extract and don't want it all over my muslin bags. But I'm probably concerned about nothing...

What is the point of FWHing? What's the difference between that or an extended boil of 75-90 mins?

Oh, and what's your take on the nearly 100 IBU IPA? How much different is it over a typical American IPA? Is this what Pliny and Heady are like (~100 IBU's)?

I've tried to download Beer Smith's trial version but the Mac doesn't seem to take it... I'm OK with Hopville though. I'm familiar with it at least, and even if it's not the best it gives me a general idea...

I was initially considering making this one "extra" IPA and using the rest of my "allowance" on stocking up on DME and hops, but now I'm thinking of changing this recipe to a pale IPA and making the amber a more standard 70 IBU IPA (IAA) so as to better taste the crystal and victory...

My final revision is:

5.5 gal with 4 gal boil

6 lbs ultralight LME (FO)
2 lbs wheat DME
3/4 lb light DME
1/2 lb crystal 20
1/2 lb crystal 40
1/2 lb carapils
1/4 lb light DME (starter)
1 oz Centennial @ 60 mins
2.5 oz Centennial @ 15 mins
2.5 oz Centennial @ 0 mins for ~15-20 mins
2 oz Centennial for 7-10 day dry hop
WLP 001

My questions are do you take out the previous hop bags before you do this? And when when would you add the LME? Before, after this, or during?

rodwha said:

I use Hopville.

I may have to give the 0 min addition a try. I've always changed a 0 min to a 5 min because at flameout I'm adding extract and don't want it all over my muslin bags. But I'm probably concerned about nothing...

What is the point of FWHing? What's the difference between that or an extended boil of 75-90 mins?

Click to expand...

Cool, software's a must for dialing these in right, IMO. You can always plug your 0 min add in as a 3-5 min add, to show the approx. IBU you'll get from it. Still add it at 0 mins and steep for awhile.

FWing will lend some flavor to the beer as well as bitterness.

As for the flameout extract; what I do is kill burner, add ME, stir like a madman, add 0 min addition when ME is mixed thoroughly. Works great.

rodwha said:

Oh, and what's your take on the nearly 100 IBU IPA? How much different is it over a typical American IPA? Is this what Pliny and Heady are like (~100 IBU's)?

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A 100 IBU IPA/IIPA is stellar, IMO. Both PtE and HT are ~100 IBU. Try Lagunita's Hop Stoopid, that's readily available. Cheap too, ~$5 a bomber. A very good 102ish IBU 8% IPA.

rodwha said:

I've tried to download Beer Smith's trial version but the Mac doesn't seem to take it... I'm OK with Hopville though. I'm familiar with it at least, and even if it's not the best it gives me a general idea...

Click to expand...

Hmmm, I run BeerSmith on my Mac.

rodwha said:

My final revision is:

5.5 gal with 4 gal boil

6 lbs ultralight LME (FO)
2 lbs wheat DME
3/4 lb light DME
1/2 lb crystal 20
1/2 lb crystal 40
1/2 lb carapils
1/4 lb light DME (starter)
1 oz Centennial @ 60 mins
2.5 oz Centennial @ 15 mins
2.5 oz Centennial @ 0 mins for ~15-20 mins
2 oz Centennial for 7-10 day dry hop
WLP 001

My questions are do you take out the previous hop bags before you do this? And when when would you add the LME? Before, after this, or during?

Click to expand...

It really doesn't matter. I like to bag all the boil hops in one bag clipped to the side of the kettle, and remove that at flameout. Then the 0 min hops in a second bag which I'll remove and squeeze out before cooling. However you go is going to work well though. I always do LME at flameout. I don't like boiling it and since it's going to be steeping for ~20 mins above 200 F, it'll be plenty sterile going into the fermenter.

I like the recipe, BTW. That's gonna be a very hoppy beer.

It's the free trial that doesn't seem to download. I'll have to give it another go. I don't recall what the problem was.

I like your idea of clipping a large bag to hold your hops in. Good idea!

Are PtE and HT both IIPA's or heavily hopped (overly so) IPA's?

rodwha said:

It's the free trial that doesn't seem to download. I'll have to give it another go. I don't recall what the problem was.

I like your idea of clipping a large bag to hold your hops in. Good idea!

Are PtE and HT both IIPA's or heavily hopped (overly so) IPA's?

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Check out a hop spider, that's going to be my next upgrade. I'm sure you can find photos of them here on HBT. But yeah, clipping the bags works too, makes it easier to get at them.

They're both IIPAs, but on the lower end on the gravity spectrum. ~8% each, HT's OG is 1.070 and PtE is just north of that IIRC.

As the one guy said, anything above the ratio of gravity to IBU 1 is gonna be overly unbalanced, that it'll need more malt to ride with the extra IBU's. I wonder...

And so I wonder if swimming out to 100 IBU's with only ~7% ABV wouldn't be too much. Maybe I ought to try 85 IBU's first...

And so maybe I ought to start with 2 gal batches first.

Hmmm... Thinking of switching gears and going with a barleywine for now and putting IPA's on the back burner. I have an Arrogant Bastard clone ready in a few days (to drink) and an IPA that'll be read to drink in about 2 weeks, and a Cascadian Dark fermenting right now.

rodwha said:

As the one guy said, anything above the ratio of gravity to IBU 1 is gonna be overly unbalanced, that it'll need more malt to ride with the extra IBU's. I wonder...

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In theory, that's great. In practice, not so much. For an "over hopped" IPA, I pretty much only use the BU:GU ratio for the bittering additions. Those really late additions are not going to throw an IPA out of balance, IME. Your idea of playing around with small batches is a good one. See what works best for you, but don't limit yourself to IPA's with a "balanced" ratio (1 for something like IPA), some of the best I've made have pushed that BU:GU ratio well north of 1.

ime anything with a ratio greater than 1 is out of balance. Not necessarily bad just not balanced. if you want an overly bitter beer go ahead and push it. If you want a really hoppy beer add late additions for the ibus and dry hop. .. I'm not saying out of balance beers are bad there just not balanced.. everyone's taste buds are gonna be different and I personally enjoy a more balanced beer over a crazy bitter one. If crazy bitter is what your going for go crazy bitter

I earned some brownie points and will be getting one of those bombers of Lagunita's Hop Stupid along with a 6 pack of Brooklyn Brewery Pre Prohibition lager, which is awesome!

Stash IPA by Independence Brewery from Austin, TX states it is 7% ABV with 100 IBU's. It's very good and not harshly bitter. It's more like a typical west coast IPA, and it seems more like 70 IBU's.

http://www.independencebrewing.com/our-beers/year-round-beers/stashipa/

rodwha said:

Stash IPA by Independence Brewery from Austin, TX states it is 7% ABV with 100 IBU's. It's very good and not harshly bitter. It's more like a typical west coast IPA, and it seems more like 70 IBU's.

http://www.independencebrewing.com/our-beers/year-round-beers/stashipa/

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That IS awesome stuff. A buddy of mine sent a couple bottles up earlier this year and I really enjoyed it. Do you get Green Flash by you? They make some excellent hop bombs. Their West Coast is one of my faves and their Palate Wrecker rivals PtE IMO.

I have not seen it. When we go out to eat it must be a place that serves craft beer.

San Antonio, TX just doesn't seem to have much of the far west/east beers. There are several that I keep hearing about here that are prime examples of a style, but I often cannot find it. Maybe it's just hiding someplace I've yet to go. There are a couple of bars/pubs that claim to have a very large selection. I guess it's time to work up a date night!

Seeing the Stash IPA claims 100 IBU's, and it being very good, has revived my interest in making such, though mine would likely be a little lighter (~6% ABV).

NordeastBrewer77 said:

That IS awesome stuff. A buddy of mine sent a couple bottles up earlier this year and I really enjoyed it. Do you get Green Flash by you? They make some excellent hop bombs. Their West Coast is one of my faves and their Palate Wrecker rivals PtE IMO.

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Green flash is alright, pretty typical really though. Used to work across the street from them. I like beers that showcase the hops a bit better, been finding their IPAs all taste similar. bitter but not distinct as far as hop profiles. I tried their citra IPA and I can tell you the zombie dust reciepe on this forum is WAY better. Their beers are bitter but don't have that hoppy taste.

Look out for Societe, brewing: apprentice , or pupil if you like San Diego IPAs. Not available in bottles just yet.

rodwha said:

I have not seen it. When we go out to eat it must be a place that serves craft beer.

San Antonio, TX just doesn't seem to have much of the far west/east beers. There are several that I keep hearing about here that are prime examples of a style, but I often cannot find it. Maybe it's just hiding someplace I've yet to go. There are a couple of bars/pubs that claim to have a very large selection. I guess it's time to work up a date night!

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I think that TX gets Green Flash, I'm pretty I discovered them when I was living in Dallas a few yrs ago. But I totally know whatcha mean, it's hit or miss where the good beers are down there, should be some good spots in SA though.

Justintoxicated said:

I tried their citra IPA and I can tell you the zombie dust reciepe on this forum is WAY better. Their beers are bitter but don't have that hoppy taste.

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Skeezer's clone? Oh yeah, that beer's the sh¡¡¡¡¡t!! Better than the real ZD. I mentioned GF's IPAs cuz they're right along the line of what the OP was talking about, very firmly bittered, and pretty readily available many places. Three Floyds makes some of my favorite hop bombs, them and Surly, but I don't think FFF's distros to TX and I know Surly doesn't.

San Antonio has just recently begun to accept a more modern culture it seems. Up until recently it's been sorta bland... Not that I'm a well cultured individual, but SWMBO claims to be. Being from Kansas City it's boring here for her.

But I can only assume that the greater beers of which I continually see spoken of are available most anywhere in the area (stores).