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birvine

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Sorry to bother, but... I just read a response to conditioning temp and was wondering something, which is why I had subscribed to that thread.

With a few of my brews lately I have come up with a taste that is not great. Now, how to describe the flavour, I'm not really sure, but possibly what people call rubber or cardboard. I was suspecting temp at fermentation. I have used a swamp cooler for initial fermentation of about a week, then when things slow down I remove the carboy from the water and place it on the floor where the temps might be a little warmer - say 68-72 vs 65-68.

In your experience are the flavours from too-warm fermentation coming during the initial stages or all along? If the former, then I can rule this issue out in the bad batches; if the latter, then I wonder how bottle conditioning does not also taint the flavour since I condition in the 68-72 range, too.

Even if you have somewhere that discusses this point I wold happily read it to solve what's going on.

The only other theory is that too much chlorinated rinse water is touching my beer at bottling time. I have not had the issue when I keg. So, I just got some IO Star Sanitizer to see if that remedies the issue.

After many great batches, and finally getting to AG, to be blind-sided by a couple of less-than-great brews is annoying.

B
 
65 to 68 for primary fermentation is fine...depending on the yeast but that's a good range. After fermentation starts to slow down, 68 to 72 is also fine. You really want to keep the temp at the yeasts best temp range during the begins of fermentation. Once it starts to slow down the temp can be a little warmer.

Conditioning is good at 68 to 70.

Your temps seem pretty good. Well actually let me ask this before I say that...are those temps room temp or wort temp? If those are room temps then you could be fermenting too high as wort temps can be 10* higher
 
Isn't cardboard off-flavor a sign of oxidation? How do you handle your beer at bottling time?
 
gingerdawg said:
Isn't cardboard off-flavor a sign of oxidation? How do you handle your beer at bottling time?

Yes a wet cardboard or sherry flavor can be due to oxidation when above 80*...but this hasn't been fully proved. Some say its true and some say oxidation is hard to do. If you splash the crap out of your hot wort or during racking after fermentation then oxidation may occur but I think it takes a lot.
 
Isn't cardboard off-flavor a sign of oxidation? How do you handle your beer at bottling time?

Yes, cardboard come from contact with oxygen. Fermented beer and oxygen = liquid cardboard/stale beer.


Temp control is only really crucial during the initial stage of primary fermentation. If the yeast is too high it is stressed out, and if it's stressed out it's going to produced esters and other compounds that end up flavoring the beer (think about us and how we sweat when we're overheated and working hard- think of it as yeast bo.)

Once fermentation is complete the temp control is not that crucial unless you are making a lager, where you drop the temps and age the beer to let those compounds fade away.

But usually once fermentation has finished temps aren't crucial because the yeast is working anymore, and therefore not throwing off compounds anymore. So unless you're in some miserably always hot climes you shouldn't sweat temp control post fermentation.

When I swamp cool I just swap out ice bottles for the first week, then I just leave it in the water bath with the t-shirt wick, which is cooler than ambient but not like it was with the ice.
 
I was thinking of post fermentation oxidation, not HSA

Exactly. Hsa is out of the picture, but oxydizing beer during racking or other things, is quite real. It can take a lot of splasing usually....but it still can happen.

We get a lot of brewers asking about pouring thier bottles back into their bottling bucket for whatever reason or another and I just shake my head, what the hell do they think their beer is falling through as it is going into the bucket, marshmallow foam or something?
 
Revvy said:
Exactly. Hsa is out of the picture, but oxydizing beer during racking or other things, is quite real. It can take a lot of splasing usually....but it still can happen.

We get a lot of brewers asking about pouring thier bottles back into their bottling bucket for whatever reason or another and I just shake my head, what the hell do they think their beer is falling through as it is going into the bucket, marshmallow foam or something?

Haha marshmallow foam? That would be good for the s'more stout recipe someone posted.
 
Thanks all for the responses - these are the thoughts that have been going through my head, actually.

As I say, I can't really say whether it was rubber or cardboard - I have a little problem with my sense of smell thus taste due to a previous career. But I sense something wrong.

I ALSO thought about oxidation at bottling, but I am very careful when I bottle so as NOT to splash. Occasionally there has been a small air bubble in the racking hose but I quickly squeeze it to get it out. The bottom of the hose is submerged and when I mix in the bottling sugar I use pre-boiled (ie little or no oxygen) water, then I mix it in very carefully to prevent splashing. Bottling is done to prevent splashing as well.

It is a mystery. If I was just starting in the hobby, I would understand that I am obviously making a mistake and don't realize it (well, I suppose, that still applies!). But I have been making great beer for batch after batch for some time now.

I sample the 'room temperature' beer as I rack to the bottling bucket and in the two problem beers they tasted fine to me. Green, but fine. So unless, I am missing the whole game, it is happening somewhere from bottling time to tasting time, which is a month or so after bottling.

B

FYI EDIT: For the curious, I was a funeral director so was exposed to lots of formaldehyde fumes during those years.
 
Lately I have wondered about other causes of this cardboard taste. A couple or few months ago, I drank a 12 pack of NB Ranger IPA and it most certainly had a strong cardboard taste.

As I was trying to study the flavour, my intuition told me that it had something to do with the hops. What kind of hops do you brew with, birvine? Do you typically use pelletized or whole hops? Do you grow your own?
 
As I was trying to study the flavour, my intuition told me that it had something to do with the hops. What kind of hops do you brew with, birvine? Do you typically use pelletized or whole hops? Do you grow your own?

I have packages of pellet hops from two different suppliers as well as homegrown. Usually I use my homegrown only as bittering hops. I just went to check the batches but there seems to be no pattern to this.

However, I also checked the grains I used - I am now starting to wonder if those two AG batches used a rancid 2-row grain. Or, if there was a problem with them in the MT. Two batches is not necessarily a pattern, but some obvious commonalities I see are AG, a grain and dry-hopping.

One was with new dry yeast and the other was washed yeast.

There must be some silly little thing that I'm doing.

Brent
 
I'm kegging an AG Arrogant Bastard cousin (I slightly changed the crystal malts so I call mine Arrogant Buster) tonight so I am going to really take note of the flavour and smell (as much as I can) as I rack and maybe even chill a glass of the flat beer to see what it tastes like.

Brent
 
My friend was getting some off flavors in his bottles. Turned out the bottling spigot was contaminated. Replaced it and I believe he is ok now.
 
I bottle with a racking tube and sanitize each time, plus, I have used it in batches that turned out fine.

Brent
 
I just kegged my Arrogant Buster brew and I could smell it AGAIN!!! Grrrrr!!

In a very foul mood I cleaned the carboy and it almost has a burning rubber smell to it.

Brent
 
I just kegged my Arrogant Buster brew and I could smell it AGAIN!!! Grrrrr!!

In a very foul mood I cleaned the carboy and it almost has a burning rubber smell to it.

Brent

I feel for ya Brent. I have the same issue off and on with a Hefe flavor and aroma of my beer. Has happened in an IPA clones as well as PA's. I thought I had mine nailed down to reusing yeast that wasn't properly "washed". Another theory is that when I use my tap water, there were some I forgot to use my Camden tablets with (to rid chloramine).

Could yours be one of the same?
 
If you haven't changed anything in your brewing setup, and previous brews have turned out fine, then oxygenation is unlikely to be the culprit here.

From what you're describing, I'd be more concerned that somewhere along your brewing/bottling pathway, there is a source of contamination.

You say that you've been brewing for a while; are you still using the same plastic brewing/bottling bucket? I would check it for scratches that could harbor infection, and consider replacing it altogether.

I also would switch to bottled water for brewing (for now), so that you can at least rule out your water as the source of the problem, and limit the variables here.

You may also want to consider changing out all of your siphoning tubing, if it's at all old, as that can also harbor infection.

You didn't mention what method you're using for cooling, but take a good hard look at your equipment - especially if you're using a counter-flow or plate chiller, the latter being especially hard to clean and sanitize from what I'm told.

Good luck! I hope you narrow down the cause of the problem soon so you can get back to worry-free brewing!
 
Overpanic:

I think I have narrowed it to an infected batch from which I used its yeast for two other batches - all three of these were the bad ones. I dumped the rest of the washed yeast from that batch!

That being said, you're right about some of my equipment. I am due to replace it and will. After this third batch I want to solve this!

Brent
 
You may be on to something. If you use a yeast for a batch that has something wrong with it, i.e. it's tired or infected, when you wash and repitch, you are literally selecting yeast for those bad flavors. Also, chorination and chloramines can cause off flavors. Chlorination is typically not a problem (it gasses off), unless you are using bleach as a cleaner. Chloramine won't gas off. My recommendation, In your next batch, use glass for fermentation, fresh yeast, new hoses and pbw/straight-A as a cleanser and star san for your sanitizer.
 
I was thinking chlorine/chloromines myself. If you use a counter-flow chiller,it may have an internal leak somewhere. Or your brewing water has a good amount of chloromines in it. But I don't think plastic fermenters are a bad thing. Just don't use anything abrasive to clean them. I dump 3-4TBSP of PBW in them,then fill with water & stir to mix. Let it sit 5 days or so,& it all wipes out easily with a soft cloth or paper towel. The blue ones from Autozone work great. Clean the lid,set it right side up,& use an old soft toothbrush & PBW to clean the seal in the lid.
Drain & rinse the FV,then remove the spigot (if there is one) & soak it in PBW. I clean'em with aquarium lift tube brushes. Then clean the seals with a dobie soaked in PBW,the aquarium brush in the mounting hole. Or the soft cloth works in the mounting hole as well.
I leave no stone unturned when cleaning FV's. Too many ways for them to harbor nasties.
 
You may be on to something. If you use a yeast for a batch that has something wrong with it, i.e. it's tired or infected, when you wash and repitch, you are literally selecting yeast for those bad flavors.
I THINK THAT IS EXACTLY THE PROBLEM. OR, THAT IT WAS INFECTED TO BEGIN WITH.

Also, chorination and chloramines can cause off flavors. Chlorination is typically not a problem (it gasses off), unless you are using bleach as a cleaner.

I DO, BUT RINSE EVERYTHING LIKE CRAZY - AND IT WAS ONLY THOSE BATCHES THAT WERE BAD AND OTHERS SINCE WERE OK.

Chloramine won't gas off. My recommendation, In your next batch, use glass for fermentation, fresh yeast, new hoses and pbw/straight-A as a cleanser and star san for your sanitizer.

I DO USE GLASS. I NOW PLAN TO USE FRESH YEAST. I'LL BUY NEW HOSE, CANE AND BUCKET. I HAVE AND WILL USE IO FOR SANITIZING

Thanks for all of the suggestions. I will make all of these changes for tonight's second attempt at SNPA.

Brent
 
I was thinking chlorine/chloromines myself.

I HAD CONSIDERED THAT BUT THE FACT THAT OTHER BATCHES WERE FINE WITH THE SAME WATER, WHICH I FILTER WITH A BRITA IN-LINE FILTER TO REMOVE BOTH.

If you use a counter-flow chiller,it may have an internal leak somewhere.

IMMERSION CHILLER WITH NO LEAKS.

Or your brewing water has a good amount of chloromines in it. But I don't think plastic fermenters are a bad thing. Just don't use anything abrasive to clean them. I dump 3-4TBSP of PBW in them,then fill with water & stir to mix. Let it sit 5 days or so,& it all wipes out easily with a soft cloth or paper towel. The blue ones from Autozone work great. Clean the lid,set it right side up,& use an old soft toothbrush & PBW to clean the seal in the lid.
Drain & rinse the FV,then remove the spigot (if there is one) & soak it in PBW. I clean'em with aquarium lift tube brushes. Then clean the seals with a dobie soaked in PBW,the aquarium brush in the mounting hole. Or the soft cloth works in the mounting hole as well.

I USE GLASS CARBOYS TO FERMENT. WHEN I'M DONE I USE A LONG-HANDLED BRUSH TO CLEAN THEM OUT THEN SOAK WITH BLEACH FOR A FEW DAYS THEN RINSE WELL AND ALLOW TO DRY. THEN SANITIZE AGAIN BEFORE USING THE NEXT TIME.

I leave no stone unturned when cleaning FV's. Too many ways for them to harbor nasties.

Tonight an SNPA brew. I'll sanitize with IO. I'll filter all of my water (which has chlorine, not chloramine - I called and asked). Then I'll watch it like a hawk.

By the way, at max I'll have a half of a beer when I brew. So it's not like I'm half in the bag and sloppy. Everything points to the re-used yeast. Each beer log sheet I check points to the same, as well.

Using all of the same processes and equipment but different dry yeast, I made the Cream of three Crops (I think that's the name - mashed 2-row, corn meal, and instant rice) AFTER the bad ones and it seems to be fine. I just kegged it on Saturday but I'll draw a glass shortly to confirm what seemed fine the other day.

I'll report back.

Brent
 
I too have had an off flavor apear after bottling.It doesn't happen with every batch,But I've noticed it with pellet and whole hops so I don't think its hop related.To me its a fermentation temp issue because the best way I can describe
the flavor is stale yeast[not sour] .Ive used wyeast and white labs and had the
problem some times prevalent other times very faint.The mystery to me is that
the beer tastes great before bottling.I have used star san and one step,niether solved the issue.The room I ferment in is between 74-80 degrees[florida}.
I'm beginning to think Its too hot.

any in-put would be appreciated
thanks dw
 
I too have had an off flavor apear after bottling.It doesn't happen with every batch,But I've noticed it with pellet and whole hops so I don't think its hop related.To me its a fermentation temp issue because the best way I can describe
the flavor is stale yeast[not sour] .Ive used wyeast and white labs and had the
problem some times prevalent other times very faint.The mystery to me is that
the beer tastes great before bottling.I have used star san and one step,niether solved the issue.The room I ferment in is between 74-80 degrees[florida}.
I'm beginning to think Its too hot.

any in-put would be appreciated
thanks dw

I am starting so second-guess myself. In the first two spoiled batches I thought they were ok as I bottled but got crappy afterwards. The one a few days ago was terrible in the carboy.

Brent
 
By IO do you mean Idophor? That'd be better than bleach. When I first got my Cooper's micro brew kit,I used the cooper's Sodium Percarbonate in solution.which smelled a heck of a lot like bleach to me. It took several hot water rinses to get the smell out/off everything after an overnight soak,as was suggested. So much for that. Star-san & PBW from then on. Def an improvement. So I'd start soaking the carboys in PBW for a few days,then use the brush,rinse,then maybe brush again. Or use that thing with the wings on a drill that Gary Martin showed on Home Brewer TV. That looked way easier to me.
And Deviant,those temps are def too high. 65-72F would be better for ales. Heat def causes some funky off flavors.
 
Yes - Iodophor.

GREAT NEWS!!

I just tried the Cream of 3 and it is AMAZING. This was brewed after the bad ones - everything the same EXCEPT for the yeast.

I think I can file this one now and get on to brewing some SNPA tonight!

Brent
 
Good to hear! Glad that problem went south. But I'd still ditch any use of bleach just to make sure. I hated all the rinsing myself. Idophor is def a better choice. And a soak in PBW does a fermenter good. Clean & no work from me in 5 days.
 
Make sure you add enough oxygen when transferring from your brew pot to the carboy and ferment and bottle condition in a dark place away from any direct light/sun. Also I would sanitize with star san and a tablespoon or two of one step cleaning solution and fill up the carboy all the way to the top while brewing and rinse it out VERY WELL right before transferring the beer to the carboy.
 
thank you unionrdr for the info.i think i can make it thru the winter when it cools but will look into better temp control in spring. why do you think the flavor only asserts itself after
bottling?
 
Some things,like nasties,are kept at bay by the active yeast. They don't get much of a chance to be fruitful & multiply. Then when the yeast settles out,& the beer chilled,they can take hold again. Even off flavors can be masked somewhat by green beer. Then when the yeast settles,& the beer starts to carbonate,same deal.
 
thank you unionrdr for the info.i think i can make it thru the winter when it cools but will look into better temp control in spring. why do you think the flavor only asserts itself after
bottling?

I was just reading someone else's thread where they mentioned their bottling apparatus. How old is yours and do you de-assemble everything totally to clean it each time?

Brent
 
I was just reading someone else's thread where they mentioned their bottling apparatus. How old is yours and do you de-assemble everything totally to clean it each time?

Brent

I use a 5 gal bucket w/spigot and rubber tube for bottling. Basically 4 parts, I break em down rinse in hot water then star san bath.unionrdr posted info as to why i dont notice the off flavor until after bttl.I think they're right,and I think the reason I havent tasted the Off flavor every time is hops.My higher ibu beers are most likely masking the flavor.I'm off to research fermentation temp control.
cheers
 
I use a 5 gal bucket w/spigot and rubber tube for bottling. Basically 4 parts, I break em down rinse in hot water then star san bath.unionrdr posted info as to why i dont notice the off flavor until after bttl.I think they're right,and I think the reason I havent tasted the Off flavor every time is hops.My higher ibu beers are most likely masking the flavor.I'm off to research fermentation temp control.
cheers

Sounds like your cleaning is fine. Initially, mine might have been masked by the hops, too. The third one was not masked.

WRT temp control, I immerse my carboy in a bucket full of cold water. Some add ice to chill it.

I'll be interested to see if this cures your problem.

Brent
 
I use a 5 gal bucket w/spigot and rubber tube for bottling. Basically 4 parts, I break em down rinse in hot water then star san bath.unionrdr posted info as to why i dont notice the off flavor until after bttl.I think they're right,and I think the reason I havent tasted the Off flavor every time is hops.My higher ibu beers are most likely masking the flavor.I'm off to research fermentation temp control.
cheers

How old is the spigot? I presume you don't break down the actual spigot, just run sanitizer through it.
This post got me replacing bottling bucket spigots at regular intervals:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/spigot-infection-121734/#post1354565
 
That's why I remove them,& all their parts every single time & clean individually. After soaking & cleaning the fermenter the 1st time around. So I guess you could say I'm cleaning them twice. Better to be sure then po'd later.
 
Further to my improperly washed yeast - last night I was wondering about an Irish Red I made a week or so ago.

Thinking to myself, hmmm, if my yeast-washing technique is not yet perfect, I'd best get this beer off of the sediment/yeast asap. Thankfully, it was from a different strain than the three bad batches.

I sampled a few times as I racked to secondary (I haven't used a secondary in ages other than for a raspberry addition on a gallon back in August/September) and it was really tasty. Of course, this time I was really seeking any underlying unpleasantness whatsoever. All was good.

So, instead of brewing last night I enjoyed a few extra OSH clone and Cream of 3 glasses just to remind myself that I can brew good stuff.

Brent
 
I was thinking it may not be how well you're washing it,but what fermentation conditions the yeast was subjected to that made successive bad batches. They must've gotten stressed somehow?...
 
I was thinking it may not be how well you're washing it,but what fermentation conditions the yeast was subjected to that made successive bad batches. They must've gotten stressed somehow?...

Well, I kind of did a seat-of-the-pants washing. That being said, the initial brew with that yeast ALSO had a problem, so whether it was the actual yeast, or something I did in that first brew, the bad flavour followed the yeast along.

Brent
 
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