Danstar Windsor - a review (using my house bitter)

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jfr1111

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There's a lot of information on different liquid strains or on the usual dry suspects (US-05, S-04, notty, etc.) but not much when it comes to Windsor, Munich, etc. I have had bad experiences with notty before (poor flocculation, long lag times, crappy taste, etc.) but I decided to give Windsor a try in a bitter. I had already used it once in a mild, but temperature control plus a bad recipe made for difficult evaluation of its performance.

OG: 1.040
IBU: 26
Mash 154F

3kg MO
300g Fawcett 65L Crystal
250g Invert #2
30g Black Barley

35g Bramling Cross @ 60
15g Bramling Cross @ 1

I rehydrated per the instructions and fermented @ 68F. Cooled the beer down to 45F, used gelatin and bottled a few days after @ 1.8 volumes.

Performance: There was a short lag time (around 10 hours), followed by violent and quick fermentation. The beer was fully attenuated in less than 5 days after pitching. The yeast didn't want to clear though, so I used gelatin and a bunch of frozen water bottles to force it to clear. This did the trick.

Aroma: There is certainly a fresh yeast/estery aroma up front that gives the beer some nutty character. Mildly fruity (considerably less than at bottling), some biscuit and malt. Not a lot of hops.

Appearance: "Read the newspaper through it clear" even though the beer is pushing 13 SRM. Gelatin REALLY helped.

Taste: Blackcurrant and berries, followed by a sweet malt,caramel and lady fingers taste. It tastes better than it smells. The bitterness starts to develop after a few seconds with the roast from the black barley. Finishes relatively sweet.

Mouthfeel: This is where the yeast really shines. Even though it finished @ 1.011, the beer has a good, luscious body.

Overall comments: This yeast has a distinctive odour that might not be to everyone's liking. It's pretty nutty. Maybe fermenting lower might alleviate it, but it makes for a change. The flavour profile and mouthfeel are very, very good though. It's definately a strain that will see more use in my brewery in the future, especially for darker bitters. Bramling Cross hops were also nice, but I vastly prefer EKG or Fuggles.
 
Coincidentally I've also just done a variation on my house bitter, a recipe based on Tim Taylor's Best Bitter, with Windsor, my experience was a little different though. Just to note, I used my standard procedures that usually produce a good beer. The only changes were the finishing hops (usually 30g EKG or Styrian Goldings) and the yeast strain (usually 1968 or 1469).

I'm at work so running off memory here...

1040
28ish IBU
95% Thomas Fawcett Golden Promise.
5% Baird's Dark Crystal.
Mashed ~66C
Chinook to bitter.
45g EKG + 15g Chinook @ flameout.

Ferment take off seemed pretty normal with what I usually get, fermenting well within 12 hours.

Ferment slowed after about 3 days, raised temp from 20C to 22C to finish. Left in fermenter for two weeks total. Into fridge at 5C, gelatined, kegged after a few days.

Was extremely clear at kegging, could nearly see through the carboy. On racking to the keg I did pick up some slurry when I slipped with my cane, wouldn't have been more than tablespoon and probably a lot closer to a teaspoon. After two weeks in the keg it's still hazy - it seems that it's either not dropping out after being resuspended or has formed a dusty layer on the bottom of the keg that's still getting pulled through.

Attenuation was not good at all. Only fell to 1018, i.e. 55% apparent attenuation. Nothing points to a stuck ferment flavour-wise and usually I get a finish in the 1010-1012 range on this beer.

Final beer is OKish.

Aroma is very 'worty', likely due to the high FG. There's some light English fruitiness - that generic fruitness that you can't put your finger on one dominating note like you can with some yeasts. Quite similar to 1968 in ester profile but not as good. Hop character is VERY muted. Usually I get quite a strong hop aroma in this beer with the aforementioned yeast and hop combos, this comes off as if there was maybe 10 - 20g total hops at flameout.

Flavour is pretty much similar to the aroma. Again high FG makes it a lot sweeter than it usually is.

Mouthfeel is quite good, but that upside is overshadowed by the cloying sweetness.

This yeast might have potential but I think it's one of those strains that just doesn't work in some breweries and/or you need to formulate the recipe around the yeast. SO4 is much the same for me - a lot of people have success with it but I never seem to have great results. Whereas all the liquid English strains I've used in this beer have come out great.
 
Good to hear someone had good results. I've done two beers @68 with Windsor that tasted and smelled like pickled feet and were cloudy like mud.

I'm tempted to give it a 3rd chance... but I dumped one of the batches so I don't know.
 
This yeast might have potential but I think it's one of those strains that just doesn't work in some breweries and/or you need to formulate the recipe around the yeast. SO4 is much the same for me - a lot of people have success with it but I never seem to have great results. Whereas all the liquid English strains I've used in this beer have come out great.

BINGO. The more I brew, the more I realize that tailoring a recipe to yeast is what produces the best results for me, and not the other way around. I wouldn't have dreamed of brewing this without the sugar addition. I'll give it to you that the fruityness is a bit generic: it's not as complex as other strains, but the flavour profile, to me, is nicer than what I got from 1768 in a very, very similar recipe.

I might even push the sugar even further up the next time I brew this beer, since it does tend to finish sweet, if not under attenuated. This strain seems like it would be a nice fit for 10% sugar, 2-3% C-140 with a MO base.
 
Attenuation was not good at all. Only fell to 1018, i.e. 55% apparent attenuation.... Aroma is very 'worty', likely due to the high FG.

I only used this yeast once (in an ESB) and swore I would never use it again. The yeast never flocculated and didn't attenuate much either. I remember thinking the beer tasted like someone took some unfermented wort and added a bunch of yeast to it.

I probably should give Windsor another chance (like the Whitbreads) though there are so many superb English strains available that it probably wont happen for me.
 
Good to hear someone had good results. I've done two beers @68 with Windsor that tasted and smelled like pickled feet and were cloudy like mud.

I'm tempted to give it a 3rd chance... but I dumped one of the batches so I don't know.

Given your experiences, I wouldn't fault you if you didn't give it a third try :D

PS: Pickled feet I get from Nottingham exlusively.
 
jfr1111 said:
Given your experiences, I wouldn't fault you if you didn't give it a third try :D

PS: Pickled feet I get from Nottingham exlusively.

I get it from Nottingham as well!
 
Where all the pickled feet beers ones that took a while to take off and refused to clear? That's what got a bunch of posts started that kicked off the last Notty recall.
 
Where all the pickled feet beers ones that took a while to take off and refused to clear? That's what got a bunch of posts started that kicked off the last Notty recall.

Pretty much. Nottingham is supposed to be a great flocculator, but it's the only yeast where I got visible yeast clumps in the beer, even on a careful pour.
 
Aroma: There is certainly a fresh yeast/estery aroma up front that gives the beer some nutty character. Mildly fruity (considerably less than at bottling), some biscuit and malt. Not a lot of hops.



I got this same smell/flavor at bottling time as well, did not really enjoy it 100%. Are you saying after aging a short time in bottles it gets toned down a little?

I thought Windsor was just a little too yeasty/fruity for my liking, hopefully bottled it will smooth out.
 
I used it in a brown ale. It tasted ok though it was a little on the sweet side. The one thing that bothered me was the very low flocculation; though it seems like some gelatin and a cold crash would do the trick.

Despite the low flocculation my beer poured very clear after keeping the bottle in the fridge for a few days.
 
I was planning to brew a Moose Drool clone after Christmas with Windsor. Reading this thread makes me think twice about the yeast choice, even though it's in the recipe I found on HBT. I will be bottling my ESB off of a 1968 yeast cake next week. Would it be smarter to use that instead of the Windsor?
 
what's a good alternative (dry yeast) to windsor? i usually use us-04 and us-05 for most brews but do have a few that call for windsor.
 
1968 is close as you are going to get for liquid or you could try cali ale 002 these are the only alternatives that are even close
 
I used Windsor again for two beers: a simple, middle of the road bitter, with only Maris Otter and amber malt and an American IPA.

The bitter is very good and the windsor really accentuates the fruity nature of the british hops, altough it scrubbed out a good amount of hop aroma.

The IPA attenuated to 80% (!), without any sugar in the grist, because I mashed it @ 148F. It didn't scrub much hop aroma in this beer, probably because I used a buttload of centennial in the last 10 minutes. It is a very decent beer, but I would've preferred something less fruity: I used the yeast cake because it's all I had on hand.

From my notes, it's also the yeast that bottle carbs the fastest. So if you want a fast turn around beer and can use a gelatin/crash cooling routine, Windsor might produce satisfactory results.
 
UPDATE:

I brewed again a couple of times with Windsor since my last posts and I think I've reached a good understanding of what this yeast is good for. I have around 8 batches total brewed with it.

A few pointers: this is FAR from a neutral yeast. It leaves its mark on any beer brewed with it. It is very fruity, even when fermented cool.

Aroma: Small fruits and berries (most often raspberries and blackcurrant, never tropical), nutty/fresh yeast esters. Usually overshadows the malt and hop character of the beer. There's also always a strange brown sugar smell. Somewhat generic in that it doesn't tend to be complex.

Taste: Fruity, very little "clean" malt or biscuit, even with high proportions of MO or biscuit type malts. Round and sweet. Boosts the mouthfeel moreso than any other yeast I've come across.

So what is it good for ? I'd use this for ordinary bitters and milds, if you want them fruity. Since it tends to underattenuate and accentuate the body, it's good for simple grists that include sugar. I wouldn't use it for anything roasty or that uses a lot of caramel malt since it can round out too much something like a stout (plus the ester profile is really inappropriate) or become cloying.

Overall, it's not a bad yeast and it certainly doesn't the rep it has for producing muddy beer, but it has to be fined/crash cooled. It needs to be fermented cool though: above 68F and it can become so fruity that you'll question wether you are drinking a wine cooler or a beer.

Why use it ? Honestly, apart from the great mouthfeel and the fact that it is a dry strain, there's not much use to it outside of the low gravity English styles. It does make a good pale bitter though, but it's really not for everybody and it won't produce a Fuller-esque beer no matter what. It might be good for fruit beers since it's so fruity, but I can't really comment on those since I don't brew them.
 
I made my first CDA, and what I was aiming for was something that would highlight the pine flavours in the chinook hops I was using, and at the same time, really bring out the malt. I also hadn't used Windsor, and read that it was good for bitters, so I thought I would give it a try.
I don't think it was the right choice for what I brewed, but time will tell.
My recipe uses a generous dose of dark Crystal and Chocolate malts with Centennial and chinook for bittering/flavouring respectively, and a chinook dry hop.
I bottled yesterday and the beer was really clear (I did use Irish Moss), and the smell was very fruity and sweet, almost tropical. Tasting was odd, it was fruity with a lingering bitterness, and the malt doesn't come through as strong as I had hoped, and the bitterness isn't apparent either, I was aiming for 70IBU, and it doesn't taste bitter at all until the finish.
Time will tell how this one works out, carbonation should make a big change, hopefully for the better, else this is just one lesson that I can learn from.
 
I've been trying to like this yeast as its a different English strain than Nottingham or so4, but it's so damn nutty in aroma and flavor.

I brewed Bobs Session Mild Extract recipe with it and fermented nice and cool at 65f for 3 days in my fridge and then let the beer free rise to room temp to drive attenuation and clean up after itself. Weeks later in the keg, the beer comes off Englishy fruity, but it's so nutty and muddled in aroma and flavor that it overshadows the malt character of the beer. Also, I think the OP is right about fining or crash cooling this yeast, as I think that would help to remove some of the yeast character from the finished beer. I may try this one again on a pale bitter, but even that's up for debate. Can't one of these companies make a dry Fullers strain?
 
I've been trying to like this yeast as its a different English strain than Nottingham or so4, but it's so damn nutty in aroma and flavor.

I brewed Bobs Session Mild Extract recipe with it and fermented nice and cool at 65f for 3 days in my fridge and then let the beer free rise to room temp to drive attenuation and clean up after itself. Weeks later in the keg, the beer comes off Englishy fruity, but it's so nutty and muddled in aroma and flavor that it overshadows the malt character of the beer. Also, I think the OP is right about fining or crash cooling this yeast, as I think that would help to remove some of the yeast character from the finished beer. I may try this one again on a pale bitter, but even that's up for debate. Can't one of these companies make a dry Fullers strain?

I wish my CDA was nutty, maybe once it's conditioned it will be, fruit is distractingly prominent.
 
Thread reincarnation....

Has anyone got any experience of brewing with this recently?

I'm trying to perfect a house bitter at the moment and am cycling through some yeasts try to get it just right. Just tried a packet of Windsor in 20L of 1.044 best bitter and it motored through fermentation, was pretty much done in 72 hours at 20C. Left it another 3 days, racked to keg, carbonated as low as possible and stuck it in the fridge to crash (no finings).

2 weeks later and the beer is pretty tasty (fresh yeasty taste, slightly fruity, showing off some biscuity malt, albeit aroma hops very muted) but it is by far the cloudiest beer I have made to date. Is this yeast a terrible flocculator, have I done something wrong or am i just being impatient?

Also with there being so much yeast in suspension will it affect the flavour adversely?

c
 
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