Any Sabco Brew Magic Users Out There?

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checker

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Hi,

Are there any active brewmagic users out there? Our club has recently acquired a system and we're have some difficulty with various aspects of the fixture. I posted one question to the sabco forum that went unanswered. A second post never got past the moderator. Seems that forum is relatively inactive or closed to new users.

Thanks
 
I believe Gilaminumbeer (an HBT member) has brewed on one for quite some time. If he doesn't respond to your thread (unlikely) you may think about sending him a PM.
 
ThickHead said:
I believe Gilaminumbeer (an HBT member) has brewed on one for quite some time. If he doesn't respond to your thread (unlikely) you may think about sending him a PM.

I think he was asking for active brew magic users, not owners of brew magic paper weights. ;)
 
I have had mine now for nearly 3 years and enjoy using it each time. My only gripe comes after the sale with respect to the Sabco policy of non-disclosure of their upgrades timing. Had I known they were completely redesigning the BM with thousands of dollars in extra features but still selling it for the standard price, or had I known they'd have no inclination to offer existing customers discounts on upgrade features, I'd have waited another 6 weeks to order.

Mine does everything it was reported to do and does it well. At the end of the day I do not regret buying a BM.

I would, however, suggest you look into some Acid #5, Gloves, and Goggles to ensure the rig gets thoroughly cleaned without need to dissassemble or wonder.

If he doesn't respond to your thread (unlikely)...

Is that a jab?

I think that was a jab.

I think he was asking for active brew magic users, not owners of brew magic paper weights. ;)

And who are you again? 3 point Brewing? Freethrow Ale House? Nuthing but net beverage co.?
 
Is that a jab?

I think that was a jab.

Not a jab. You're a frequent poster, and as a BM user I thought it unlikely that you would not respond to this thread. And if you didn't (for some unlikely reason) I pointed the OP in your direction. :mug:

Lay off those bongs...you're getting paranoid... ;) :fro:
 
One of my brewing buddies has an older model of the BM and likes it a lot. It's a proven design with a good track record. Pricey, but worth it if you are not a DIY'er type.
 
Excellent, thanks for the replies all.

The forum deserves an intro post from me...I'll do that shortly.

WRT the BM system, I'm getting wretched efficiencies, 60% or less. I'm using my traditional 1.3qt/# of grain and w/the false bottom, barely get liquid coverage of the grain. I suspect this is causing problems as I'm not getting the whirlpool effect and likely just channeling down the sides. I'll try a looser mash next time. Thoughts and what efficiencies are you getting?

Does your return hose entrain air? Mine does and I need to add a hose clamp to prevent this. The stub on the inside of the MT is short and clamping the hose is difficult. Do you have this problem and if so, what's your solution?

Our boiler burner is anemic at best. The slightest breeze sends it yellow and sooty and kills my boil. I've talked to sabco and they suggested increasing the pressure on the regulator (I did, marginally helped) and then perhaps reaming the orifices (brewing is such a naughty hobby!). I understand that older BMs were high pressure, jet engine type burners. Ours is low pressure, quiet. I'm considering replacing the regulator w/a high pressure one. Thoughts?

We also purchased the chill wizard. Works great but the motor or pump is very noisy. I'm wondering if this is typical of the unit or if we got a bum chiller.

Thanks for the guidance. I'm sure once I get the kinks out, I'll love the system. As it is, I just want to go home and brew on my keggle/gott.
 
My only gripe comes after the sale with respect to the Sabco policy of non-disclosure of their upgrades timing. Had I known they were completely redesigning the BM with thousands of dollars in extra features but still selling it for the standard price, or had I known they'd have no inclination to offer existing customers discounts on upgrade features, I'd have waited another 6 weeks to order.

Wow. That sucks. Probably an honest business strategy, but not a kind one to their consumers. Effectiveness aside, that would put me off to the point where they would be extremely fortunate to get anything other than a poor reference from me.
 
Excellent, thanks for the replies all.

The forum deserves an intro post from me...I'll do that shortly.

WRT the BM system, I'm getting wretched efficiencies, 60% or less. I'm using my traditional 1.3qt/# of grain and w/the false bottom, barely get liquid coverage of the grain. I suspect this is causing problems as I'm not getting the whirlpool effect and likely just channeling down the sides. I'll try a looser mash next time. Thoughts and what efficiencies are you getting?

.

let me first say i do not have a BM but I do have their mashtun I would bump you volume to 1.5 qt per pound I have heard other user say that they needed at least 4 inches above the grain bed during the mash.
 
Excellent, thanks for the replies all.

The forum deserves an intro post from me...I'll do that shortly.

WRT the BM system, I'm getting wretched efficiencies, 60% or less. I'm using my traditional 1.3qt/# of grain and w/the false bottom, barely get liquid coverage of the grain. I suspect this is causing problems as I'm not getting the whirlpool effect and likely just channeling down the sides. I'll try a looser mash next time. Thoughts and what efficiencies are you getting?

Does your return hose entrain air? Mine does and I need to add a hose clamp to prevent this. The stub on the inside of the MT is short and clamping the hose is difficult. Do you have this problem and if so, what's your solution?

Our boiler burner is anemic at best. The slightest breeze sends it yellow and sooty and kills my boil. I've talked to sabco and they suggested increasing the pressure on the regulator (I did, marginally helped) and then perhaps reaming the orifices (brewing is such a naughty hobby!). I understand that older BMs were high pressure, jet engine type burners. Ours is low pressure, quiet. I'm considering replacing the regulator w/a high pressure one. Thoughts?

We also purchased the chill wizard. Works great but the motor or pump is very noisy. I'm wondering if this is typical of the unit or if we got a bum chiller.

Thanks for the guidance. I'm sure once I get the kinks out, I'll love the system. As it is, I just want to go home and brew on my keggle/gott.

I do the approx 2" and generally this comes to 1.4/1.5 qts/lb. Been getting 80+% efficiency into the boiler.

I also have the CW. Yes, the pump is noisey.

I have the jet engine burners. Swapped out orifices for NG and they work better now than they did on propane with a adjustible reg capable of 30psi.

Get some chimney flue adapters and work them as little as possible to fit in under the cans. Took a notch and a screw for mine in the flue adpaters.

Whalah, built in wind screens.

Also, if you do the above, make sure you drill a hole for lighting the burners BEFORE brew day, Mmkay.



Puff, Puff, Pass, and don't lip it b!tches.
 
Thanks GMB,

We built a sheet metal box that sits under the burner but it's open on the inlet side. It also sits on the ground so there's a gap between the fixture and the screen. I'm assuming that the windscreen/flue adapter solution is attached to the underside of the fixture. I'll have my guys fab something similar. Thanks.

Can you comment on the return hose as well? Perhaps I missed a piece during assembly.
 
What about the return hose?

Lest it's changed it's a hose, clamped over a ferrule welded to the inside of the tun.

I just let it cross the tun and then loop it around the outside edge and let it lay over top of the grain bed.

Yup. I attached it to the underside. I also mounted a water filter and water hook to my rig. Have a look in me gallery. I have some snaps there.

And some clutter.
 
Thanks, I'll check your pics. Our hose is simply a slip fit. I added a typical worm drive hose clamp to prevent the air entrainment one gets if it's not clamped...it's not the easiest spot in which to operate a screw driver. I'm suspecting I missed a part specific for this task...I'll go review the install instruction and my collection of odd bits left over. Thanks again.
 
I just picked up a complete 1st generation brew magic system off craigslist for 600 bucks. I'm sure I'm going to be looking for a bit of help as well.
 
Thanks, I'll check your pics. Our hose is simply a slip fit. I added a typical worm drive hose clamp to prevent the air entrainment one gets if it's not clamped...it's not the easiest spot in which to operate a screw driver. I'm suspecting I missed a part specific for this task...I'll go review the install instruction and my collection of odd bits left over. Thanks again.

Nah. The hose clamp sells for $5994. The rest is a bonus for a dollar.

All mine has is a cheap clamp. Turn the screw down or sideways to make it easier.
 
Did you account for the water under false bottom before before adding your 1.3 Qt. Per Lb?
I looked at a pic of thier bottom and it looks like it could be a gallon plus.
 
The water to grain ratio would be independent of the dead space under the false bottom, no? I'm gathering that the false bottom along w/the design of the BM requires a ratio of 1.4 or 1.5qt water/# grain (in order to establish a whirlpool and maximize conversion and sugar extraction). My next session will target a bed that 1 to 2 inches below the liquid level.

Did you account for the water under false bottom before before adding your 1.3 Qt. Per Lb?
I looked at a pic of thier bottom and it looks like it could be a gallon plus.
 
I'm gathering that the false bottom along w/the design of the BM requires a ratio of 1.4 or 1.5qt water/# grain (in order to establish a whirlpool and maximize conversion and sugar extraction). My next session will target a bed that 1 to 2 inches below the liquid level.

I don't think establishing a whirpool is really what you want to do. So long as you don't majorly screw up somewhere, the mash will convert no problem. I no longer give it a second thought. An inch or two of water above the grain bed will be fine. All you need to do is trickle in more sparge water to balance what you drain from the MT. It doesn't make much difference how you deliver the sparge water to the MT and it doesn't have to create a visible whirlpool. If it does, you are probably sparging too fast and that will definitely affect your efficiency (sugar extraction). You will quickly figure out the best water to grain ration for your system. Anywhere between one and two quarts per pound should work just fine. If your mash is too thick, just add some more water. Not much you can do if it's too thin, but unless you go extreme in that direction, it won't make much difference anyway. IOW, the water/grain ratio is not all that critical.
 
I don't think establishing a whirpool is really what you want to do. So long as you don't majorly screw up somewhere, the mash will convert no problem. I no longer give it a second thought. An inch or two of water above the grain bed will be fine. All you need to do is trickle in more sparge water to balance what you drain from the MT. It doesn't make much difference how you deliver the sparge water to the MT and it doesn't have to create a visible whirlpool. If it does, you are probably sparging too fast and that will definitely affect your efficiency (sugar extraction). You will quickly figure out the best water to grain ration for your system. Anywhere between one and two quarts per pound should work just fine. If your mash is too thick, just add some more water. Not much you can do if it's too thin, but unless you go extreme in that direction, it won't make much difference anyway. IOW, the water/grain ratio is not all that critical.

I get much better conversions in the mash when I keep it loose and thin. A steady whirlpool throughout the mash and the throttle wide open on the pump.

But for the sparge, I aim for 45 minutes to fly with ~2 gallons. I have hit 90% brewhouse this way.
 
90%, very good indeed. My last brew disappointed my already disappointing 60%, but I also ended up with other major problems unrelated to the BM. Suffice it to say that demonstrating brewing to others should only be done on an old, familiar system. Ah well, they see the bad along w/the good.

Not sure the where or the why of the mash ratios, just been using them for many years on my gott/keggle. Need to refresh my memory along w/my pallet more often.

One last...I was down to the brewery today, checking for placement on the windscreen. GMB, how did you attach your screen to the underside? Any special tricks or is this just a 'go figure it out' sort of thing?

Thanks.
 
Hoping to keep this thread going, since the forum at Sabco does seem dead. (Good product, terrible web presence for them)

I just set up my BM, and was going to run through it with some water tonight. Any advice on what to use for a cleaner to run through the system, and a sanitizer? Sabco's website says a "no-suds" cleaner. Star-San is my usual sanitizer, but with plenty of suds. I would imagine if I run a good cleaner throug the system, and sanitize before the next brew day, I wouldn't have to take it apart too often (every few brews - besides big and easy things like the false bottoms). Any advice on that?

Checker - did you figure out your efficiency problems? If so, what was it?
 
Why would you run sanitizer through it? I'd think a good cleaner and boiling/hot water should be fine. Only sanitize the post-boil portion of the system.
 
Good Point - I usually over clean.

I am going to attempt my first 10 gallon batch tomorrow (Tuesday) as my first time using this system. To make it more complicated I'll do a multi-step mash, and start after work. (Meaning if I take all night, I get less sleep for Wednesday at work)

I've read some negative things on the multi-step mash. Basically that the heating element only does the job if it is within 5 degrees of the target temp, and using the burner obviously needs to be low heat to avoid burning/carmelizing the mash. But I've also seen that the bottom of the mash gets too hot, and the water in the pipe going to the heating element gets super heated, causing problems and false temp readings. Normally I'd use heated water from the HLT to hit my step temperature. So this will be new.

Granted, I still need to finish the manual and crack the CD that came with this, but any advice on doing a step mash with the BrewMagic out there?
 
I have a RIMS, not a BM, but they operate similarly. The key to fast temp ramp ups when step mashing or for a mashout is to maintain a high flow rate while applying heat with the burner. The problems with this is that a high flow rate will gradually compact the grain bed which can slow the flow rate and possibly result in a stuck mash. I circulate as fast as possible while applying a moderate flame with the burner. I shut off the burner and stir the mash at the beginning of each step including the mashout. I highly recommend using a flame diffuser under the mash tun which lets you apply more heat without scorching. I also use a vacuum gauge to monitor suction applied to the FB. The gauge lets me know what the speed limit is when circulating the wort. I am not familiar with the software for the BM or how the temps are monitored, so I can't help in that dept. The BM's are tried and true. I am sure you will get the hang of it quickly. I like that you are doing the whole step mash thing right off. You will learn a bunch doing it that way. Let us know how it goes.
 
Good tip. I'll see if I can balance the flow rate while not getting a stuck mash. I've always used a manifold, rather then sucking from one point under a false bottom. I may have to do a quick search on what to do if I get a stuck mash. (Although I know what my approach will be...scrape it up with a metal spoon and keep going)

Since there is a false bottom, the grain should be about 1" or a bit more off the bottom, so I think than the bottom of the keg is my flame diffuser, since the grain isn't resting on it. But I need to look into this vacuum guage you are talking about.

Should be a fun Tuesday night. I'll definitely post some results. I can't get into the Sabco forum without them accepting my attempt to register, and it appears they don't respond timely to a request to register, which is unfortunate.
 
Good tip. I'll see if I can balance the flow rate while not getting a stuck mash. I've always used a manifold, rather then sucking from one point under a false bottom. I may have to do a quick search on what to do if I get a stuck mash. (Although I know what my approach will be...scrape it up with a metal spoon and keep going)

Since there is a false bottom, the grain should be about 1" or a bit more off the bottom, so I think than the bottom of the keg is my flame diffuser, since the grain isn't resting on it. But I need to look into this vacuum guage you are talking about.

1. If the mash gets stuck, simply shut off the burner, stop the pump and stir up the grain bed just as you planned. Yes, be sure to scrape the FB clear when stirring. I always stir at least twice during the mash, sometime more for muti-step mashes.

2. The bottom of a keg is a very poor conductor of heat. It will transmit heat OK, but it will tend to have hot spots. A flame tamer was a huge improvement for my system. Kettles with clad bottoms won't benefit much from a diffuser, but non-clad bottom SS kettles certainly will. It's not so much a matter of scorching the grain as it is overheating or possibly scorching the wort.

3. A single point outlet under the FB isn't really a problem. The wort should migrate evenly down through the grain bed and FB provided there is no channeling. The height of the FB above the kettle bottom is not critical and it's typically governed by the height of the outlet port, but sometimes by the curved bottom of a keg or kettles with a lip at the bottom like the Blichmann's have.
 
(in lieu of Sabco not seeminginly allowing new members to their forum, and thus restricting access to the wealth of user knowledge that must be archived there, I plan to keep this thread going and add some pictures as I go, for the next guy that is too un-handy to build his own brew sculpture/system and makes this purchase. FWIW, I know it would have cost me $3k in materials and wasted materials, and 6 months, and then hired help, to build this if I tried to DIY. For a lot of people, thats a lot of fun. I just got done rebuilding everything in a 110 year old house, I needed a break from cursing and failure, and didn't want to add welding to my growing list of building knowledge)

Ran through the setup for the first time last night, with cleaner than a rinse with water. Pretty easy to understand the controls, although the instructions say you can fill the mash tun "from the bottom up" from the HLT, unti they equalize. I was confused at first, took me a bit to realize that it equalized early due to not starting with tons of water. Did give me a chance to look at every connection though, and tighten two leaky compressor nuts (ones that I had previously loosened to move some things).

Not a fan that when I disconnect the mash tun, there is a thermo-gauge and piping that falls to the stand as soon as I disconnect the tri-clamp. I may have to figure out something to keep that pipe propped up better.

But overall, controls worked great, and got a good dry run for brewing tonight.

The only thing that seems dumb is they have a long tube from the MT to BK, to limit aeration with the gravity flow to the BK. But they also have a short tube that you can connect there, to take samples. But, you need to start with the short tube to vorlauf (unless that is unnessessary with the re-circulation in the system, need to look into that) and you need to take samples to not collect the watered down, under 1010 wort (even though I never personally care about this, I don't like topping off with water, I'd rather top off with Wort, but I may start this practice to see its effect on my beer). So, I think I'm just going to hook some tubing up to the short piping, so I can pop it on and off as I see fit. I don't want to disconnect the tri-clamp for the short pipe, to install the long one. - Reason being, there is a plastic gasket/washer in between, that falls off immediately when you do this. I've had this thing 1 day and I already lost one of the damn things through a crack in the deck.

So its on tonight. Going to brew 10 gallons of a Vanilla Cream clone (I forget whose original recipe, some West Coast mircobrewery). Its a fan favorite of the roommate who doesn't brew, but is completely negatively effected by all of the brewing stuff everywhere.
 
Checker - did you figure out your efficiency problems? If so, what was it?

Not really. Best I've gotten so far is 70% but I usually run 65%. Calculations based on beerSmith.

In other news, we've added a copper diffuser plate to the end of the return hose and suspend this over the mash. Allows for a thicker mash and tends to get recirculation and sparge over the entire grain bed as opposed to channeling down the sides.

Don't like the MT to boiler hard mount either. Our other brewer has done as you've suggested and moved to a hose to allow samples. I typically have liquid left in my MT when I hit my target volume in the boiler, so I have a source of sample. Can't really use it to tell me when to stop but at least I can confirm my volumes aren't causing an oversparge.

I've been using the recirculation at full flow rate to bring mash temp up to mashout w/o stuck mash problems.

When you get a chance, I'd be interested in your efficiency numbers.
 
Not really. Best I've gotten so far is 70% but I usually run 65%. Calculations based on beerSmith.

In other news, we've added a copper diffuser plate to the end of the return hose and suspend this over the mash. Allows for a thicker mash and tends to get recirculation and sparge over the entire grain bed as opposed to channeling down the sides.


IMO, you should be able to easily get 80-90% efficiency out of your BM and possibly more than that. First thing I would do is run the efficiency calculation manually and check it against BeerSmith's number. It's very easy to do manually. There may be some unseen factor in the BeerSmith calculations that are throwing it off. Maybe not, but worth checking.

I used to get very mediocre efficiency in the 65-75% range for a long time, with the occasional exception where it was much higher for no apparent reason. I finally figured out that there was a channeling problem. It was not obvious and it was not consistent from batch to batch. I solved the problem by thoroughly stirring the grain bed at every rest and especially immediately before beginning the sparge. I also do a mashout and I sparge very slowly. I've learned to stir the grain bed well at the end of the mash out, then resume circulation SLOWLY for a brief vorlaugh to clear the wort (5-10 min or so). The slow circulation at this point helps to avoid re-consolidating the grain bed just prior to the sparge. A properly set grain bed is not the same as a compacted grain bed. Channeling is the unseen killer of efficiency IMO.

Also, if you maintain an inch or two of water over the grain bed, the sparge water will naturally disperse. Typically, the hot water is added very slowly when fly sparging and how you deliver it to the MT is not critical. It would be different if the water were entering at a high velocity.
 
IMO, you should be able to easily get 80-90% efficiency out of your BM and possibly more than that. First thing I would do is run the efficiency calculation manually and check it against BeerSmith's number. It's very easy to do manually. There may be some unseen factor in the BeerSmith calculations that are throwing it off. Maybe not, but worth checking.

I used to get very mediocre efficiency in the 65-75% range for a long time, with the occasional exception where it was much higher for no apparent reason. I finally figured out that there was a channeling problem. It was not obvious and it was not consistent from batch to batch. I solved the problem by thoroughly stirring the grain bed at every rest and especially immediately before beginning the sparge. I also do a mashout and I sparge very slowly. I've learned to stir the grain bed well at the end of the mash out, then resume circulation SLOWLY for a brief vorlaugh to clear the wort (5-10 min or so). The slow circulation at this point helps to avoid re-consolidating the grain bed just prior to the sparge. A properly set grain bed is not the same as a compacted grain bed. Channeling is the unseen killer of efficiency IMO.

Also, if you maintain an inch or two of water over the grain bed, the sparge water will naturally disperse. Typically, the hot water is added very slowly when fly sparging and how you deliver it to the MT is not critical. It would be different if the water were entering at a high velocity.

Thanks for the tips. I recognize the need to do a manual check of the efficiency reading, just getting lazy I guess.

I've avoided stirring the mash for a few reasons. The user's manual for the fixture discourages it and I've read a couple of horror stories on collapsed false bottoms. Also, I'm just out of our base-lining phase of the fixture so have been limiting variations in my procedure. The copper diffuser plate was a one-variable experiment that admittedly had no effect on the efficiency. A second experiment, where I added a mashout, yielded similar disappointing results. Next session I'll start stirring and skip the mashout. Don't think my sparge rate is too high...maybe 1/2 hour to transfer to my target volume, ~13 gal for a 10 gallon batch.
 
I've avoided stirring the mash for a few reasons. The user's manual for the fixture discourages it and I've read a couple of horror stories on collapsed false bottoms. Also, I'm just out of our base-lining phase of the fixture so have been limiting variations in my procedure. The copper diffuser plate was a one-variable experiment that admittedly had no effect on the efficiency. A second experiment, where I added a mashout, yielded similar disappointing results. Next session I'll start stirring and skip the mashout. Don't think my sparge rate is too high...maybe 1/2 hour to transfer to my target volume, ~13 gal for a 10 gallon batch.

1. IMO & IME there is absolutely nothing to fear about stirring the grain bed. IIRC, I read somewhere that many commercial breweries stir the mash continuously during the conversion.

2. I would not skip the mash out step. It made a difference with my system and it can't do any harm. IMO, if there is any significant channeling going on, the mash out may not make any difference.

3. IMO again, you are sparging too fast. Slow it down to at least 45 minutes and preferably an hour or more. The general rule of thumb is about a quart per minute.

4. The Sabco false bottoms are very strong. I don't think you have to worry about collapsing it. I use a Sabco FB occasionally on my buddies system and we've applied max suction to the point of a completely stuck mash more than a few times and the FB held up just fine. I have collapsed other off brand/home made false bottoms, but never the Sabco.

5. Regarding channeling and this is just my opinion, nothing more. Some channeling will inevitably occur no matter what. It can be exceedingly subtle at times, but that doesn't mean it's not happening. It can happen when circulating the wort a la RIMS, HERMS etc or when fly sparging. It's generally not a problem when batch sparging. So, my point is that stirring the grain bed is the only way I know of to mitigate the channeling and it works for me. As I previously mentioned, my efficiency was all over the place before I began the stirring routine.
 
Well we brewed the first batch on Sabco last night. A breakdown and my thoughts (positive and negative). I should also interject I still haven't finished the user manual, or their CD that came with this. So user error may well be prevelant. I didn't have time to read.

Protein rest was easy. My hot water on tap is 122*, so adding that to the HLT with my chemical additions, then swapping water over to the Mash was a breeze. (Side note - I started with 10 G in the HLT, and used chemicals for that amount. Then I really only transferred about 6G to the MT for the Mash. I figure, hey, the rate for the mash is accurate, and I have some extra chemicals in the HLT, that will get watered down when I add more water for the sparge. I have no idea if this is the right approach..... but my Mash PH should have been good)

I did a 4 step mash. Protein rest, Sacch at 145* for 40 minutes, Sacch at 154* for 40, then a Mash Out for 10. Getting from the Protein Rest to the next step took over 30 minutes. I kept the flame low, and stirred occassionally, while the water was constantly recirculating. Maybe I should have kicked the flame a little higher? Was worried of scorching the wort. Trust me, I scorched nothing. Added maybe 90 minutes to my brew day though which you will see if you keep readin.

The problem with the Brew Magic is like others have said. The burner on the MT effects the water pipe going to the digital thermometer. So the control panel will say you have overshot the temperate "Turn Off Burner!". But once the burner is off, the temp drops 8-10 degrees. Then you need to turn the burner back on, as the electric heating element isn't strong and won't warm it up that far. Its a back and forth struggle.

After that step, it took about another 30 minutes to go from 145 to 154*. And really, the first 10 minutes that I counted for that mash step, it fluctuated from 150 to 158. Once the system dials in, its great. But, its tough to get it dialed in.

Took about 30 more minutes to go from 154* to 168* for my mashout. At this point, I'm also heating the water in the HLT to get that to 168 for my fly sparge. That effects the temperature reading of the Tun thanks to heating the pipes around it.

Normally - I would have increased my step temp with water from the HLT. I think the lesson learned here is, start with little less water in my protein rest. Add a quart of 180* water or so from the HLT to help the burner and electric kick up the heat, and do that again for a next step. Just a Quart, not to add too much water, but to get the temp moving. (Hopefully heating it up doesn't effect the stability of the temperature in the Mash though...worried about that)

Sparging - OOPS. Was too worried about keeping the pump "full". Ran off the first 3 gallons (ok, maybe 5) from the Mash in like 5 minutes. Grain bed was exposed. So I slowed that, and kicked up the water from HLT. 5 minutes later - OOPS. Had put in like 5 gallons of HL into the Mash. Way too much water. Finally got it more dialed in after that. But I ran out of water in the HLT when collecting the last 1 or 2 gallons, and finished sparging in about 25 minutes. I did check the gravity at 11 G (collected 13) and I was at 1016. So still good. But I'm sure that last gallon was much closer to straight water. This was all me not being ready to handle the system though.

As this was the first 10 gallon batch we've ever done, learned a lesson on how long it takes to use an IC to cool on an 85 degree day. Took a bit more then twice as long as normal. Usually done in 20 was done in 50 minutes. Gonna have to get a pump to pump some super chilled water through....

When all was said and done, I was targeting 75% efficiency, despite normally getting 69% on the old setup. Hit 78.5%, and my sparging was terrible. No stuck mash. No explosions.

I did smell burning a couple of times. I'll check the heating element later to see how much wort may have burned there.

Some quick improvements by Sabco would go a long way:
*Put more guards around the burner, don't let that heat other pipes and effect the temperature readings!
*Use a little stronger heating element.
*The burner on the boil kettle sucks. It is different then the HLT and MT. It was quick to 200*, then took a good 20 minutes, maybe longer, from that point.
*The physical Thermometer on the MLT is right next to the digital probe for the electronic controller. Should always read the same, even =/- 0.5 degrees due to timing. But they were consistently 3-4 degrees off. I'm calling to b*tch about that this week.

After having this, and using it, I wish I was technical enough and had the time to build this. The problem for me would be the software/controller. If you can build this yourself, its just a pump with one heating element. But I'm pretty happy with this. We'll see how it works once I read the instructions and better learn the system.
 
Some quick improvements by Sabco would go a long way:

*The physical Thermometer on the MLT is right next to the digital probe for the electronic controller. Should always read the same, even =/- 0.5 degrees due to timing. But they were consistently 3-4 degrees off. I'm calling to b*tch about that this week.

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The problem with the dial thermometer is the probe is way too short. I do not have the SABCO system i do have their MT incorporated into my Brutus build. I had the ports custom placed on the MT to allow it to fit in to the brewery flow. I have noticed that the MT thermometer will show 10-15 degrees cooler than my temp prob. The first few times I brewed with it I was constantly trying adjust my mash temps for the two data points to mesh. I finally bought a lab thermometer and stuck it in the middle of the grain bed and wa-la both temps. probe and lab therm. both matched.

a simple solution to this problem is for SABCO to make the dial thermometer a 6 inch probe instead of a 2 inc prob. the reason being after you take into account the TC port and the fittings that thermometer probe barely protrudes into the kettle itself.
 
The problem with the dial thermometer is the probe is way too short. I do not have the SABCO system i do have their MT incorporated into my Brutus build. I had the ports custom placed on the MT to allow it to fit in to the brewery flow. I have noticed that the MT thermometer will show 10-15 degrees cooler than my temp prob. The first few times I brewed with it I was constantly trying adjust my mash temps for the two data points to mesh. I finally bought a lab thermometer and stuck it in the middle of the grain bed and wa-la both temps. probe and lab therm. both matched.

a simple solution to this problem is for SABCO to make the dial thermometer a 6 inch probe instead of a 2 inc prob. the reason being after you take into account the TC port and the fittings that thermometer probe barely protrudes into the kettle itself.


Ahh, good point. But you are saying that the digital probe, placed where Sabco places it on the Brew Magic, is lined up with the probe you stuck right in the mash? If so, thats good news for me. I should throw the old floating thermometer into the mash next time to help calibrate/verify.

For the dial thermometer, it doesn't go right into the MT, but the piping right off of it, which should be the same temp. If the dital probe is accurate, I don't care about the dial thermometer right there. It is then an annoying spot for wort to build up. I ran cleaner through the system, then rinsed the system, took off that dial thermometer, and wort was resting inside of the hole for it. So that spot doesn't clean well, nor does it take an accurate temp. :(
 
Well we brewed the first batch on Sabco last night. A breakdown and my thoughts (positive and negative). I should also interject I still haven't finished the user manual, or their CD that came with this. So user error may well be prevelant. I didn't have time to read.

Protein rest was easy. My hot water on tap is 122*, so adding that to the HLT with my chemical additions, then swapping water over to the Mash was a breeze. (Side note - I started with 10 G in the HLT, and used chemicals for that amount. Then I really only transferred about 6G to the MT for the Mash. I figure, hey, the rate for the mash is accurate, and I have some extra chemicals in the HLT, that will get watered down when I add more water for the sparge. I have no idea if this is the right approach..... but my Mash PH should have been good)

I did a 4 step mash. Protein rest, Sacch at 145* for 40 minutes, Sacch at 154* for 40, then a Mash Out for 10. Getting from the Protein Rest to the next step took over 30 minutes. I kept the flame low, and stirred occassionally, while the water was constantly recirculating. Maybe I should have kicked the flame a little higher? Was worried of scorching the wort. Trust me, I scorched nothing. Added maybe 90 minutes to my brew day though which you will see if you keep readin.

The problem with the Brew Magic is like others have said. The burner on the MT effects the water pipe going to the digital thermometer. So the control panel will say you have overshot the temperate "Turn Off Burner!". But once the burner is off, the temp drops 8-10 degrees. Then you need to turn the burner back on, as the electric heating element isn't strong and won't warm it up that far. Its a back and forth struggle.

After that step, it took about another 30 minutes to go from 145 to 154*. And really, the first 10 minutes that I counted for that mash step, it fluctuated from 150 to 158. Once the system dials in, its great. But, its tough to get it dialed in.

Took about 30 more minutes to go from 154* to 168* for my mashout. At this point, I'm also heating the water in the HLT to get that to 168 for my fly sparge. That effects the temperature reading of the Tun thanks to heating the pipes around it.

Normally - I would have increased my step temp with water from the HLT. I think the lesson learned here is, start with little less water in my protein rest. Add a quart of 180* water or so from the HLT to help the burner and electric kick up the heat, and do that again for a next step. Just a Quart, not to add too much water, but to get the temp moving. (Hopefully heating it up doesn't effect the stability of the temperature in the Mash though...worried about that)

Sparging - OOPS. Was too worried about keeping the pump "full". Ran off the first 3 gallons (ok, maybe 5) from the Mash in like 5 minutes. Grain bed was exposed. So I slowed that, and kicked up the water from HLT. 5 minutes later - OOPS. Had put in like 5 gallons of HL into the Mash. Way too much water. Finally got it more dialed in after that. But I ran out of water in the HLT when collecting the last 1 or 2 gallons, and finished sparging in about 25 minutes. I did check the gravity at 11 G (collected 13) and I was at 1016. So still good. But I'm sure that last gallon was much closer to straight water. This was all me not being ready to handle the system though.

As this was the first 10 gallon batch we've ever done, learned a lesson on how long it takes to use an IC to cool on an 85 degree day. Took a bit more then twice as long as normal. Usually done in 20 was done in 50 minutes. Gonna have to get a pump to pump some super chilled water through....

When all was said and done, I was targeting 75% efficiency, despite normally getting 69% on the old setup. Hit 78.5%, and my sparging was terrible. No stuck mash. No explosions.

I did smell burning a couple of times. I'll check the heating element later to see how much wort may have burned there.

Some quick improvements by Sabco would go a long way:
*Put more guards around the burner, don't let that heat other pipes and effect the temperature readings!
*Use a little stronger heating element.
*The burner on the boil kettle sucks. It is different then the HLT and MT. It was quick to 200*, then took a good 20 minutes, maybe longer, from that point.
*The physical Thermometer on the MLT is right next to the digital probe for the electronic controller. Should always read the same, even =/- 0.5 degrees due to timing. But they were consistently 3-4 degrees off. I'm calling to b*tch about that this week.

After having this, and using it, I wish I was technical enough and had the time to build this. The problem for me would be the software/controller. If you can build this yourself, its just a pump with one heating element. But I'm pretty happy with this. We'll see how it works once I read the instructions and better learn the system.

Here's my critique:

1. I would avoid using water right out of a hot tap. I don't recall why this is not a good idea, but IIRC that's what the general consensus was at the time. You also don't want to run hot water through a carbon filter IIRC.

2. Heat your strike water in the MT. No need to transfer it from the HLT. Just fill the MT directly from the git go. This eliminates the need to compensate for the kettle thermal mass.

3. You should be able to ramp up the temp at about 2*/min. The trick is to circulate the wort as fast as you dare while running the burner as high as you can. This is easier said than done as you risk a compacted grain bed and/or overheating the wort. Turn the burner down/off as you approach your target temp so you don't overshoot. This takes some experience to get the hang of. I automated my burner for the same reason. I did not like the constant attention the manually operated MT burner demanded.

4. Your sparge was way too fast. Between that, letting the grain bed run partially dry and subsequently adding too much additional sparge water I'm surprised you got the 78.5% which is pretty good. You should easily be able to get another 10 points if you avoid those issues.

5. You should not have a problem with the pump running dry while sparging if you control the flow rate on the output side of the pump. It may run dry if the grain bed gets completely stuck, but at that point you would have to stop and stir anyway. Otherwise set the flow rate as fast as you can get away with. That can be challenging to get right.

6. When stirring the grain bed, circulation should be stopped with both the MT burner and the electric hex turned off. After stirring, re-start the circulation and resume applying heat as desired. I never stir the grain bed while the wort is circulating as I don't want any suction of the FB while I'm getting the mash mixed up. This helps keep grain particles from being forced through the FB.

7. IIRC, most add brewing salts etc only to the MT and not to the sparge water. The conversion is over by the time you begin the sparge, so as long as your tap water is otherwise suitable, no need to add chemicals to the sparge water. Obviously, if your HLT water will also be your strike water you would have no choice but to treat both. I don't think there's a downside to doing it that way.

8. I gave up on the Bi-metal dial thermometers long ago and never looked back. They are notoriously temperamental. I hate 'em.
 
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The problem with the Brew Magic is like others have said. The burner on the MT effects the water pipe going to the digital thermometer. So the control panel will say you have overshot the temperate "Turn Off Burner!". But once the burner is off, the temp drops 8-10 degrees. Then you need to turn the burner back on, as the electric heating element isn't strong and won't warm it up that far. Its a back and forth struggle.
<snip>
Sparging - OOPS. Was too worried about keeping the pump "full". Ran off the first 3 gallons (ok, maybe 5) from the Mash in like 5 minutes. Grain bed was exposed. So I slowed that, and kicked up the water from HLT. 5 minutes later - OOPS. Had put in like 5 gallons of HL into the Mash. Way too much water. Finally got it more dialed in after that. But I ran out of water in the HLT when collecting the last 1 or 2 gallons, and finished sparging in about 25 minutes. I did check the gravity at 11 G (collected 13) and I was at 1016. So still good. But I'm sure that last gallon was much closer to straight water. This was all me not being ready to handle the system though.
<snip>
*The burner on the boil kettle sucks. It is different then the HLT and MT. It was quick to 200*, then took a good 20 minutes, maybe longer, from that point.

I haven't experienced the burner/pipe proximity problem. My biggest challenge is allowing the reading on the controller to exceed my target by 5* or so before the controller indicates that the burner should be shut off. After a few minute of recirc, the temp seems to stabilize on my target.

My first round on the system resulted in 7 1/2 gallons in the ferm. for a 5 gallon batch due to the HLT/MT/Boiler juggle. A little grainy but not too bad really.

Couldn't agree more on the boiler burner. We finally moved our fixture indoors as the slightest breeze was causing soot and lost boil. Figure that between CO poisoning and a frustrating brew session, the former was the lesser of the 2 evils ;).
 
Catt, great feedback, thanks. I'll take that into account.

One question, whats the problem with using hot water out of the tap? I did treat it with gypsum and calcium chloride, via Palmers updated water profile calculator and BeerSmith. I'll have to look that one up.

And on my sparge, yeah I screwed that one up. :) I'm sure I'll dial that in on the next batch. My big concern is just hitting my efficiency consistently. If that happens to be 85+, I'll be all the happier.
 
and a quick 30 second search gave me info on that hot tap water. Its an issue if you have chlorine in the water (I don't) and if you are using a hot water tank. Buildup from the heating element and such. I'm in an old house. The hot water is coming from the same place as the cold, just running through the furnace first.

But, I've always brewed coffee using cold tap water, since that is what I was told. I'll switch it up, get cool water into the MT, treat it, heat it up, and go.
 
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