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Keln

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I'm starting to think self-designed brews are easier than kits. Anyways, I am doing a kit Chardonnay and it came to the day for first racking. It said the fermentation should have slowed down, which it had, but was still kind of active. Against my better judgement, I did it "by the book" and racked the wine anyways. Ok, so quite a bit of sediment had formed on the bottom of the container, thus I was very careful not to shake it up. After sanitizing everything well and letting it airdry, I started racking the wine. Right when I was almost done, I had an involuntary convulsion or something and shook the primary, kicking up alot of sediment. Rather then letting that little bit cloud up my otherwise nice looking batch, I stopped racking and eventually dumped it. I only lost maybe 6oz or so, no big deal. I poured some in a small glass first through a filter to taste it, and it was kind of bitter. It tasted like wine and wasn't a spoiled flavor exactly, just bitter.

So, I had my batch racked and ready to return to shelf. That was early yesterday afternoon. So far it still isn't doing anything. No bubbles or anything, it looks completely flat. Now, I have read that racking removes, besides general sediment, dead yeast right? Live yeast should still be suspended in the liquid right? Can racking shock the yeast enough to kill it? I don't think there were really any big temperature differences, and I used sanitary methods for everything, even siphoning.

I'm a bit concerned by the bitterness too, should I add some sugar and pitch a little more yeast? Or should I leave it alone a few more days? Yeast is Lalvin EC-1118 btw.
 
Racking won't kill the yeast, but you did lose most of the yeast in the process. I'd give it a few more days before adding yeast. Do not add any sugar.

I suspect what you are calling bitter is actually astringent, which is very common in wines. It's due to natural tannins and can be removed by adding finings once the ferment is done.
 
Ok, it's been a couple more days and it's not active at all. I want to add yeast. Should I add the same amount as I did in the beginning? Is there a thumbrule to adding yeast?
 
Keln said:
Ok, it's been a couple more days and it's not active at all. I want to add yeast. Should I add the same amount as I did in the beginning? Is there a thumbrule to adding yeast?
How long did you have it in primary? Did you take Hydrometer readings? You mentioned it tasted 'bitter'. If it hadn't fermented out it would still taste slightly sweet. Personally i don't think you need to add more yeast - it sounds like it's fermented out fully and just needs to clear now.
 
Like I said, it's a kit so I was simply following the instructions verbatim. I don't think I want to do any more kits. It was in the primary 10 days, and was doing well. I didn't want to rack it from looking at it, it hand't slowed enough. But I decided to rack anyways per instructions (it says on day 10). It then says it should continue to ferment and you may have to rack it again a few times depending on how much sediment is formed in the bottom. On day 20-something you are supposed to clear it, then bottle it after a few more days. It's all cut and dry instructions and doesn't really give answers for any eventualities, nor does it really teach you anything about winemaking. I think it's crap. All my future projects will be ingredients I buy, recipies I choose, and methods I come up with based on what experts say.

Anyways, no I do not have a hydrometer yet. I had time to do so only on one day and it happened to be frigging election day, so all the stores having anything to do with wine were closed. Stupid backwards laws. I wouldn't know where else to get one unless I stole one from work, and they are all nasty and coated in battery acid anyways. And I'm not paying $12 S&H to buy a $5 hydrometer online. Of course I didn't know about using Hydrometers for sampling your brew until after I had started the kit, because I didn't check these sites out until I'd had a question of course. This stuff isn't exactly common knowledge you know. Most people don't have a clue how alcoholic beverages are made. So, no, I cannot give you an data to help.

Now, can I save this wine, or should I clear it or what?
 
Add another packet of the same yeast. Secondary fermentation for wines can be very slow, just like meads.

With a kit, your OG doesn't matter, you get what you get. But, the FG is important. With ciders and wines it is common to have final gravities below 0.990. So, buy a hydrometer, no rush. Be warned, there is a strong anti-hydrometer element on the forum.
 
Leave it to rack as per the kit for a further 10 days-ish as you say the kit suggests.
Don't worry that it's stopped bubbling - if you put in the right amount of sugars at the start for the kit (i.e. not too much!) and got good initial fermentation that lasted a good few days it'll be fine.
I'm sure it looks pretty clear right now but after the extra time in secondary it will have dropped at least a small residue to the bottom of your carboy - then rack it and add finings to clear it as per the instructions.
(I'd personally rack it again after this and store a little longer than a few days before bottling to prevent further sediment).
BUT first things first my Friend, RELAX! You've done a good job so far!:D
 
Yeah caplan, it has dropped some sediment already. This kit is wierd. You don't add any sugar. You don't even activate the yeast. You don't put a packet of yeast in either. Just like a 1/2 tsp or something like that. Just the juice packet and water, then shake it (aeration) and pitch the yeast without activating it or anything. Then mix water and nutrient and add that. That's it. Then 10 days later rack it. Then a dozen days or something after that clear it, then a few days bottle it.
 
Keln said:
Yeah caplan, it has dropped some sediment already. This kit is wierd. You don't add any sugar. You don't even activate the yeast. You don't put a packet of yeast in either. Just like a 1/2 tsp or something like that. Just the juice packet and water, then shake it (aeration) and pitch the yeast without activating it or anything. Then mix water and nutrient and add that. That's it. Then 10 days later rack it. Then a dozen days or something after that clear it, then a few days bottle it.
It sounds like standard 'kit wine instructions' - They can be slightly confusing.
No 'adding sugar' means it should all be in the kit so no need to fuss as long as you added the correct amount of water - which given the info so far it seems you did.
Lalvin EC-1118 is a Champagne Yeast that will deal with just about any sensible level of fermentable sugar and as it's a dried yeast it contains much more cells compared to liquid versions. No need to activate it prior to pitching.
How does the kit tell you to 'clear it'?
 
Well, lessee here. Day 23 "Stabalize" wine. Basically stop fermentation with a packet of K-Sorbate and K-Metabisulfite. Rack again if sedimentation. Don't do this until wine is dry.

Then day 28 is "Clearing". Add packet of Gelatin, Tartaric Acid, Sulfur Dioxide, and Pectinase. Let wine stand for 3 days.

Day 31 bottle it. If it isn't clear, then wait until it is to bottle it. Filter wine if you want to (doesn't give any directions on how to do that of course).

So you can see, simple instructions like these drive a person like myself to websites like these to get a wee bit more info. Of course, after reading through everything here and elsewhere, I'm excited about brewing as a hobby. Hence I am doing a batch of JAO mead too :D


So, anyways, should I attempt to stabalize now, pitch more yeast, or let her sit until day 23?
 
Without hydrometer Wait until day 23, and in the meen time it would be good to pick up a hydrometer to verify that the wine is dry, with how long its been fermenting I think it is. Dont just buy one get a spare they are easy to break, I am on my fourth

Now is the time to degass the wine, dissolved co2 in the wine will make it have a real shrp bitter taste and make it harder for the finning agents to work and clear properly.

Who is the manufacture of the kit? I've only had one bag for clearing thats been isinglass or chitosan depending on white or red.


When they are talking about filtering its enlomatic, mini jet , super jet type filters to polish the wines and make them sparkle.
 
Yeah, I've used hydrometers to test battery gravities many many times. They DO break easily.

How do you degas a wine? Let it sit?

The kit is made by Lakeview Valley Farms.


See, the reason I am concerned about the inactivity is because before racking it was active, and after it is not. I don't think the yeast used up all the sugar in the few minutes it took me to move it from one container to another. I'll admit it was not sweet tasting, but still...

So I guess I will wait until day 23 then add my stablizer stuff. I'm going out today to look for a hydrometer and other supplies for my next projects. I'm not afraid of failure, this is a fun and interesting hobby. :D
 
To degass there are some tools to attach to a drill like a fizz-x, wine-whip, or you could use a some type of vacume pump to do it. From the Things I have read the fizz-x seems to be the best drill powered one, mity vac pump works good to, just dont go over 20 in hg on a full carboy, there is a risk of implosion if the vacume is to strong, shouldnt need to go past 15 in hg. Ive used both fizz x and the vacume pump. Can also break out your stirring spoon and whip it back and forth in the carboy to release the co2, dont whip the wine in a circle that just defeats the purpose.

If it is really loaded with co2 watch out for the volcano effect, just keep a towl handy for an eruption :D.
 
Keln said:
Well, lessee here. Day 23 "Stabalize" wine. Basically stop fermentation with a packet of K-Sorbate and K-Metabisulfite. Rack again if sedimentation. Don't do this until wine is dry.

Then day 28 is "Clearing". Add packet of Gelatin, Tartaric Acid, Sulfur Dioxide, and Pectinase. Let wine stand for 3 days.

So should I attempt to stabalize now, pitch more yeast, or let her sit until day 23?
Forget more yeast - I'd definately let her sit until day 23 and use the two packs. Put it back under a fresh airlock. This will ensure CO2 can still escape.

Rack it on day 28, add clearings and de-gas it.
When you rack it, leave a small gap between the tube end and wine surface so that it 'trickles and bubbles' into the clean carboy. this helps clear further CO2. Add your clearing packet(s) and again put it under an airlock.

Drill attachments and macho shaking of 6 Gallon Carboys will do the job but i'm a Luddite and i'm lazy!:D

I'd then rack it after it clears and continue to do so until you no longer have any sediment.
 
That's what I've decided to do.

Just out of curiosity, what would happen if I did add yeast? Assuming it's done fermenting (which I really think it is the more I consider it) would it do anything? Would it just sink or float or what? There's alot of sediment on the bottom now and I can only assume the yeast transferred in the racking is what's sitting there dead now.

And what do you guys use to stablize your wines? Is it these campden tablets I keep reading about? Or the chemicals I mentioned above? Do either have an effect on taste (good or bad)?

And then "clearing"...what exactly does that do? I'm assuming it further causes suspended particles to drop, but would allowing the wine to sit longer also cause clearing?

I know this site and others are a wealth of information on making beer and wine, ciders and mead...but it's almost too much info. :D
 
If you did add yeast it would not do anything at this point, yeast need to get used to the alcohol they produce.

I use straight powder pottasium meta bi sulfite which is the same thing as tables just doesnt have binder agents added and is not premesured out. It is an anti-oxident and also most spoilige organisms are sensitive to it. Potasaium Sorbate stops yeast and bacteria from budding any further cells. Some people say they can taste sorbate in wine i dont know I cant

Clearing agents are charged particles that bind to the opposite charge particle in the wine and speed the clearing process along by binding together making bigger particles that settle quicker. Alowing the wine to bulk age and clear would have the same effect, would just have to keep the carboy toped up and the airlock full.Would have to rack every month until its clear and does not drop more sediment could take a year before bottling
 
Well, I stabalized the wine several days ago, and today is the day for adding finings. So yesterday I bought all kinds of things, bottles, corks, corker, hydrometer, grain bag, a few odds and ends. I decided to test my wine today with hydrometer. So I soaked the test jar and hydrometer and this thing I can use to extract the wine out in sanitizer and then rinsed it all off.

Ok, so I filled the test jar up and then inserted the hydrometer. Well, I can't tell you what it read because it sunk down so low, it was past the scale. My hydrometer has a scale of 1.000-1.080. I can't be sure, but I'd say it's somewhere around 0.090 or so if the scale went that far. Do I just need a better hyrdrometer, or is my wine screwed up? I'll be bottling soon, but I want to hold off until I can figure this out.
 
Keln said:
I filled the test jar up and then inserted the hydrometer. Well, I can't tell you what it read because it sunk down so low, it was past the scale. My hydrometer has a scale of 1.000-1.080. I can't be sure, but I'd say it's somewhere around 0.090 or so if the scale went that far. Do I just need a better hyrdrometer, or is my wine screwed up? I'll be bottling soon, but I want to hold off until I can figure this out.
Your wine certainly isn't screwed up. The low hydrometer reading just means your wine will be dry and higher in alcohol than maybe you planned. I wouldn't worry, bottle it when you're ready and age it appropriately.
 
awesome. Well, I was gonna add finings, but the packet of finings dried up, so I went to the store (I found an actual wine-making supplies store!) and looked for the ingredients that were in that packet. I was only able to find Gelatin, Tartaric Acid, and Pectinase...but not sulfur dioxide. What exactly is that for? I was thinking maybe it was just something to keep the other three ingredients in solution together, kind of a preservative maybe. Are the other three good enough to finish my wine off?
 
Sulfur Dioxide (SO2) Is what camden tablets and Pottasium Metabisulfite turn into when mixed into water . Its used for anti-bacterial and anti-oxident. You would need extra SO2 for longer term ageing over 6 months. quarter teaspoon pot meta mixed into wine and added back to carboy will average approx 50 ppm in 6 gallons.
 
Well, it's been about three days and according to the instructions, it says 2-3 days for clearing, and well the wine has cleared some, but not to what I expect. For one thing, it's colour is a bit darker than what I associate with Chardonnay...almost orange. The liquid has a "clear" quality to it, but not quite see-through all the way yet, if you catch my meaning.

Anyways, how long should I wait until I would need to add some more chemicals, and if so which ones and how much. Also, would sticking the carboy in the fridge help the clearing process?
 
woohoo! success!

I went to the store and bought a bottle of chardonnay. I drank almost all of it lastnight (rough day at work) and left about 2 oz in a glass in the fridge. I got up this morning and withdrew the same amount of chardonnay from my carboy where it has been clearing the last 4 or 5 days. I put it in another wine glass and into the fridge.

About an hour later, I took them both out to compare. First, colour is pretty much identical. The orangish colour was caused by looking at it through the carboy. It is also perfectly clear. In fact looking at the two, you cannot tell which is which.

Next smell. You can tell a difference, but at the same time they have the same kind of smell. Then it was time to taste. First the store-bought 2yr old chardonnay. It was zesty and full of flavor with a hint of that oak barrel taste to it. Probably at it's peak in aged complexity. Then I tasted my own brew. I didn't use oak chips, so obviously that taste is not there. Also there is a flatness to it...not unpleasant, but what I would call "unripe" if it were a fruit. The aforementioned bitterness is completely gone! In fact, the wine I made tastes like chardonnay that hasn't been aged. Eureka! I dunnit! I can imagine it might taste pretty good after a year in the bottle.

Probably would be a $6 bottle compared to store bought stuff, but it's only my second wine and at least this one is drinkable. :D


Thanks for the help during this last month folks.
 
not sure if you've bottled by now, but here is my 2 cents---

i'm doing my first kit. a "selections" pinotage. cost an arm and a leg. anyway, what i learned is that this is totally different from making beer. you can let the wine sit for a loooong time in the carboy (after the first racking).

as far as i can tell, whether you're clearing it in the carboy or letting it sit in the bottle, it's aging. hell, mine has been "clearing" for almost a month now. and you know what? when i "need some wine" i just stick a funnel in an empty bottle and pick up my hefty 6 gal carboy and fill that sucker up! kinda reminds me of the jesus and the wine thing-- how they used to have those big containers of wine? kinda like that! just take what you need when you need it!

i am so impressed with the results so far. this stuff BLOWS AWAY even a $20 bottle at this point. i figure it will only get better. it's so smooth! just floats across the tongue, no harshness like you get with those 6-8 dollar bottles. INCREDIBLE!!!

anyway, my motto is just chill and let it take its time.

hope yours turned out great!

:rockin:
 
Yeah, it's been bottled and laying onit's side for a couple weeks now. I took them out yesterday to see if any sediment had settled on the sides of the bottle, but there is none. Liquid is still nice and clear, so it looks like I successfully bottled it without getting any crap in it.

We'll see how it tastes probably late fall or december when it's had some time to age.
 
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