Primary > Secondary

I'm planning to brew again soon but I have a small problem ... currently all my carboys but one are in use and they are not going to be empty anytime soon. When I change the brew (haven't decided yet what I will brew) from primary into secondary I am still not going to have an additional carboy. I thought about racking everything into my priming bucket, clean out the carboy, and rack everything back into it. I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not. What do you guys think? Am I gonna 'hurt' the brew by doing it that way instead of just from one carboy into another?

Why not just skip the secondary for one of your brews and let it hang in the primary longer?

You could certainly do that. I wouldnt, but you definitely could. What I would do if I was you is make a wheat beer. Make something that doesnt need a secondary. Make a Hefe for example and let it go 2-3 weeks in primary, bottle and drink in two weeks.

Yeah that was my backup plan ... make a beer without the secondary (maybe a hefeweizen). I mean I could just buy another carboy, too........ ;-)

The need for a secondary is highly exaggerated. You can easily skip the secondary for most brews. In fact, many advanced homebrewers are now seeing the advantages of NOT using a secondary, and there is currently a paradigm shift going on toward eliminating the use of a secondary for most beers. Just look at the dozens of recent threads about the topic to see.

Personally, I only secondary if I need to age a beer or I am doing a post-ferment addition (e.g., fruit, oak chips, lots of dry hopping, etc.). Otherwise, I let most beers sit in the primary for 3-4 weeks then bottle or keg.

I'm part of the no-secondary crowd. The only thing I find good with secondaries is strictly clarity. Had no affect on taste, I did a comparison.

Ditto, I rack to the keg after 3-4 weeks and rarely have a clarity problem.

I also ditto the no secondary sentiment. When I let my beer sit in the primary for 3-4 weeks and rack without disturbing to the bottling bucket or keg, my beer is just as clear as when I use to secondary.

In my experience the oxidation from the extra transfer to secondary does more harm than good.

Like most posters above, I rarely use a secondary, only for style I feel will benefit from the clearing, or if it will be lagered or batch aged. I would actually recommend you making a style you have in the past and enjoyed through the primary-secondary process so you can truly see how the no secondary way actually produces the same (if not better) beer.

Palmer has gone on record within the last year stating he wishes he did not praise the 1-2-3 system so highly in his book. He is now using the primary only process almost exclusively.

Call me old-fashioned, but I secondary everything except my weizens.

i usually do secondaries...but i've been kinda lazy lately

I've stopped doing them and my beers having improved.

Hopleaf said:

I've stopped doing them and my beers having improved.

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What factor would you specifically attribute that too? Oxidation?

I have one primary and two secondaries and it forces me to secondary to free up the primary for the next batch. However, ever since I started kegging and hearing the Jamil doesn't secondary, I'm gonna pick up a few more primaries. I mean, you have a brewer that took the most awards at the nationals this year telling you secondary is worse. It's probably pretty good advice. I'd attribute this to the potential of oxydation, contamination (are you sure those tubes and secondary are sanitized?) and then there's the theory that keeping the beer on all that yeast is essential in conditioning.

homebrewer_99 said:

Call me old-fashioned, but I secondary everything except my weizens.

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Bill, you so Old Fashioned!

I stopped using secondaries when I started crash cooling my bucket fermenters for a a few days to a week before kegging. Kegs sitting in the kegerator clear up nicely after a couple of days.

homebrewer_99 said:

Call me old-fashioned, but I secondary everything except my weizens.

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Same here. I tried one time to be patient and let the primary do all the work. It took forever for the yeast to fall out. There's just so darn much of it in there that unless I rack to a secondary, it just stays in suspension. This batch also had a lot more yeast "bite" to it than the others and was noticeable to the people I served it to. For a weizen that's fine, but when you're trying to get your friends to like an APA or a Brown Ale, I need that yeast gone.

"Yeasties...you've done your job...now get out of my beer...".

I've actually read and heard from others that if you only do a primary, you might end up with unwanted bitterness from your brew being exposed to all of the sediment at the bottom. How valid is this? I have a new batch on its third day and want to do what I can to improve from the last batch.

My recent brew started off great and then had some slightly off flavors. I cannot tell if it is due to transfering to the secondary too soon or if they did not condition long enough. Seeing as it is a dark beer on the border of being a stout, I've read in these forums that I should really wait another couple of weeks before drinking the stout.

Along these lines-what is it that makes the yeast drop out of suspension once it's racked to a secondary? I racked a blond on Saturday that had been in the primary for 10 days..in the primary there were tons of yeast in suspension, and even some visible movement. A half hour after racking there was a little less than an inch of trub, and the beer was visibly clearer. What is it about an new empty container that makes it clear so quickly?

EdWort said:

Bill, you so Old Fashioned! ..

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...and I was trying to be nice to myself with that description...

I secondary, my friends like clearer beer

BrewDey said:

Along these lines-what is it that makes the yeast drop out of suspension once it's racked to a secondary? I racked a blond on Saturday that had been in the primary for 10 days..in the primary there were tons of yeast in suspension, and even some visible movement. A half hour after racking there was a little less than an inch of trub, and the beer was visibly clearer. What is it about an new empty container that makes it clear so quickly?

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What BrewDey said +1

For the first time I'm leaving an AG pale ale in primary for the full 3 weeks. Its been two weeks now, and there is still a lot of material in suspension. Much more than I would expect to see if I had racked to a secondary. Yes, I did dry hop, so that could account for some of it. I'm going to go all the way with it and see how the final beer turns out.

brloomis said:

What BrewDey said +1

For the first time I'm leaving an AG pale ale in primary for the full 3 weeks. Its been two weeks now, and there is still a lot of material in suspension. Much more than I would expect to see if I had racked to a secondary. Yes, I did dry hop, so that could account for some of it. I'm going to go all the way with it and see how the final beer turns out.

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I just don't see how the yeast could ever completely clear out of a 68 degree primary…it’s just to dense with material to allow the yeast to fall.
If you leave it in the primary and don't secondary it, put it in the chiller at around 40 degrees to crash chill it for 4-5 days. That will help pull a lot out yeast.
I do know this…if your primary looks like it still has yeast suspended when you rack to a keg or bottles…you’re gonna have a high concentration of yeast that gives you that undesirable, yeasty, “homemade beer” taste.
Yeast is not beer (not withstanding certain hefe’s). The micro’s and BMC makers filter their beer to clarify, and homebrewers use secondaries to clarify.

BierMuncher said:

I just don't see how the yeast could ever completely clear out of a 68 degree primary…it’s just to dense with material to allow the yeast to fall.
If you leave it in the primary and don't secondary it, put it in the chiller at around 40 degrees to crash chill it for 4-5 days. That will help pull a lot out yeast.
I do know this…if your primary looks like it still has yeast suspended when you rack to a keg or bottles…you’re gonna have a high concentration of yeast that gives you that undesirable, yeasty, “homemade beer” taste.
Yeast is not beer (not withstanding certain hefe’s). The micro’s and BMC makers filter their beer to clarify, and homebrewers use secondaries to clarify.

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Hmmm...maybe I should reconsider. I don't have a chiller set up yet, so I can't crash cool it. I think I'll leave it in primary until week 3, and then rack to secondary for a week or so to clear. I don't want yeasty beer, and neither does SWMBO.

I'm curious about this crash cooling now....I have a great tub to do it in too!

If the yeast didn't have room to fall it would be because your primary was full of slurry.

brloomis said:

Hmmm...maybe I should reconsider. I don't have a chiller set up yet, so I can't crash cool it. I think I'll leave it in primary until week 3, and then rack to secondary for a week or so to clear. I don't want yeasty beer, and neither does SWMBO.

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If you really want it clear and don’t have the space to crash chill a carboy, get some flavorless gelatin (you can get it at the grocery store), dissolve a teaspoon in 1/2 cup of water for one hour, bring to 180 degrees to completely dissolve, let cool slightly and then add it to your secondary.

It’s made a ton of difference with my beers.

NOTE: If you're planning on bottling and priming with sugar, you'll want to agitate the yeast bed just a bit before racking to your bottling bucket. That should give you enough yeast to carb your bottles, but the gelatin will help the bottles settle even quicker so you'll need to swirl them every day or so to accelerate carbonation.

BierMuncher said:

If you really want it clear and don’t have the space to crash chill a carboy, get some flavorless gelatin (you can get it at the grocery store), dissolve a teaspoon in 1/2 cup of water for one hour, bring to 180 degrees to completely dissolve, let cool slightly and then add it to your secondary.

It’s made a ton of difference with my beers.

NOTE: If you're planning on bottling and priming with sugar, you'll want to agitate the yeast bed just a bit before racking to your bottling bucket. That should give you enough yeast to carb your bottles, but the gelatin will help the bottles settle even quicker so you'll need to swirl them every day or so to accelerate carbonation.

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Thanks for the tip. I might try this sometime.

Still not clear on the whole primary only/no secondary thing...guess I need to do some reading.

My directions are 1 TBS of gelatin in 225ml (about 1 cup) warmed until it dissolves then add to the carboy.

brloomis said:

Still not clear on the whole primary only/no secondary thing.

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Seems like it will always be a point of contention. I was amazed at how much a recent beer cleared after racking to secondary (haven't tasted it though).

I think the yeast strain may have something to do with it too..I used Munton's Gold (high floculation) on a recent batch and just let it sit in the primary for a month, then bottled. It was initially very yeasty, there was even visible activity in the bottles. But after 4 weeks or so, it tasted great and was clear enough to see through.

homebrewer_99 said:

My directions are 1 TBS of gelatin in 225ml (about 1 cup) warmed until it dissolves then add to the carboy.

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That sounds good to me too. I got two bottles of gelatin from two different sources. One suggested ½ teaspoon for every gallon of beer (2.5 for a five gallon batch) and the other just said one teaspoon for a five gallon batch.

I just settled on two teaspoons for my beer. I think the gelatin will accomplish the same thing, just at different rates, depending on the amount used.

BrewDey said:

… I was amazed at how much a recent beer cleared after racking to secondary (haven't tasted it though)… after 4 weeks or so, it tasted great and was clear enough to see through.

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You’ll also be surprised how non-homebrew drinkers are much more open to trying your beer when you pour them a crystal clear draft.

For me, a major upside to secondaries is time. I can go from brew day to tapping my keg in as little as 3 weeks on my APA’s and haus ales.

5 days primary
5 days secondary with gelatin (is usually cleared out in 3-4 days)
Keg, chill and carb at 13 PSI for 10 days

I used to use secondaries faithfully, but I have been moving away from them after hearing that many high profile brewers (e.g., Jamil Zainasheff , John Palmer) no longer use them or advocate their use for all beers.

Honestly, I have never noticed any differences in clarity or taste between beers that were bottled from the primary vs. the secondary. Beer in a secondary certainly looks clearer than beer in a primary, but I don't think it makes much of a difference after 3 weeks in the bottle. All my beers have been crystal clear from the bottle.

I pretty much only use secondaries now for long-term volume conditioning.

I mentioned it earlier that it really is a matter of personal taste. I even recommend using ceramic mugs to cover the cloudiness as a simple solution.

Of course, having 8-10 full kegs for any period of time can reduce any anxiety waiting for your brews to clear.

BrewDey said:

Along these lines-what is it that makes the yeast drop out of suspension once it's racked to a secondary? I racked a blond on Saturday that had been in the primary for 10 days..in the primary there were tons of yeast in suspension, and even some visible movement. A half hour after racking there was a little less than an inch of trub, and the beer was visibly clearer. What is it about an new empty container that makes it clear so quickly?

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Visible movement? Sure those aren't sea monkeys?

Rick

I am trying the extended primary thing for my latest beer. Thus far, it is at 2 1/2 weeks. Is it possible to throw gelatin right in the primary, or will there be some adverse side effects? What type of gelatin do you use?

For those that have done the extended primary, do you usually go for 3 or 4 weeks?

Thanks!

HCNate said:

I am trying the extended primary thing for my latest beer. Thus far, it is at 2 1/2 weeks. Is it possible to throw gelatin right in the primary, or will there be some adverse side effects? What type of gelatin do you use?

For those that have done the extended primary, do you usually go for 3 or 4 weeks?

Thanks!

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The only down side I can think of is if you want to harvest and wash the yeast cake for future use. You’d be liable to harvest gelatin with your yeast and that might impair the yeasts performance next time around.

You can use store bought unflavored gelatin granules…usually in the baking section. I’d suggest 2.5 Tsp for a five gallon batch. Soak it in a cup of water for 30 minutes. Bring to a slight boil, stir to dissolve, then cool a bit and toss it in.

BierMuncher said:

You can use store bought unflavored gelatin granules…usually in the baking section. I’d suggest 2.5 Tsp for a five gallon batch. Soak it in a cup of water for 30 minutes. Bring to a slight boil, stir to dissolve, then cool a bit and toss it in.

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I'd like to try this. Do you have to add yeast at bottling time, or is there enough left to carbonate the bottles?

brloomis said:

Hmmm...maybe I should reconsider. I don't have a chiller set up yet, so I can't crash cool it. I think I'll leave it in primary until week 3, and then rack to secondary for a week or so to clear. I don't want yeasty beer, and neither does SWMBO.

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I never racked this beer to secondary. I left it in the primary for about 4 weeks and then bottled. It never did clear in the primary, and there is a much thicker than usual layer of sediment in the bottle. It doesn't taste yeasty though, and it seemed to carb up quick.

HCNate said:

I am trying the extended primary thing for my latest beer. Thus far, it is at 2 1/2 weeks. Is it possible to throw gelatin right in the primary, or will there be some adverse side effects? What type of gelatin do you use?

For those that have done the extended primary, do you usually go for 3 or 4 weeks?

Thanks!

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I wouldn't do it in the primary, but I guess it wouldn't really hurt.

Why not just add it when you rack to your keg? It works really well because the whirlpool effect of the siphoning beer mixes the gelatin solution in really well, ensuring it contacts the maximum amount of beer.

FlyGuy said:

I wouldn't do it in the primary, but I guess it wouldn't really hurt.

Why not just add it when you rack to your keg? It works really well because the whirlpool effect of the siphoning beer mixes the gelatin solution in really well, ensuring it contacts the maximum amount of beer.

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If only I kegged. I was perusing some of the issues with bottling and having the yeast fall out. I guess I'll just have to roll with a secondary in order to clear it up.

Thanks for your help!

HCNate said:

If only I kegged. I was perusing some of the issues with bottling and having the yeast fall out. I guess I'll just have to roll with a secondary in order to clear it up.

Thanks for your help!

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Ah, OK. Then just add it to your bottling bucket. Same effect.

Just a note, though -- the gelatin finings are going to interfere with your bottle carbonation. Expect the process to take longer, and you are probably going to need to periodically give those bottles a gentle shake to get the yeast back in suspension and back to work.