Economical and correct receptacles-plugs for 240V 50A

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clearwaterbrewer

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I am thinking of putting in a service receptacle to feed a brew system controller with 2 4500W 240V elements running simultaneously, and also supplying small amount of 120Vac..

L6-30 is great (Yeah, I know, 30A), because it comes in a recessed receptacle form to do the power-in on brew controller, but only has three connectors.

I was thinking of the ones called 14-50 which are reasonable online, but downside is that they do not come in the recessed male version to place on controller box.. would probably hardwire 10' of 6 gauge if using this 14-50

or I could use any 3-prong that was fed by a GFCI, and therefore not really need grounding, correct? (I know this may sound scary to some, to not have a ground, but if a small current leaked to ground, with or without a ground wire, the GFCI would trip...)


thoughts?
 
or I could use any 3-prong that was fed by a GFCI, and therefore not really need grounding, correct? (I know this may sound scary to some, to not have a ground, but if a small current leaked to ground, with or without a ground wire, the GFCI would trip...)


thoughts?

You need a ground wire. Period.

If current leaks, but can't find a path to ground, then you potentially have metal items "charged up" and waiting to surprise you.

The ground wire needs to be present so that a current leak ABSOLUTELY has a path to ground and will pop the GFI.
 
You need a ground wire. Period.

If current leaks, but can't find a path to ground, then you potentially have metal items "charged up" and waiting to surprise you.

The ground wire needs to be present so that a current leak ABSOLUTELY has a path to ground and will pop the GFI.

IMHO, you are incorrect.

A GFCI *does not* need a ground wire to operate and save people from electrocution... In fact, older houses without ground wires can install 3-wire outlets and be to code ONLY if they have a GFCI..

'current leaks... can't find a path to ground' these statements are mutually exclusive.... it either leaks to ground or it goes to nuetral... GFCI detects the dangerous current 'not going to neutral' (not 'going to ground')

AC does not 'charge up'.. static electricity 'charges up', and is DC


ground conductors are not considered 'current carrying', they provide a reference point... and a path to ground *if* the neutral becomes open... a GFCI is much better at protection than a ground...

-mike
 
Have you looked into marine-type (but not grade) twist-locks?

edit: apparently they also use them in RV's.

M_C

Yes, L21-30 seems to be the name you can look for on eBay... decent deals on plugs, receptacles and the like..

again, going over the 30A rating, but I have used 15A 110V connectors at 23A (4500W-240V) (good quality like hubbell, as harbor freight doesn't work so great)

-mike
 
IMHO, you are incorrect.

A GFCI *does not* need a ground wire to operate and save people from electrocution... In fact, older houses without ground wires can install 3-wire outlets and be to code ONLY if they have a GFCI..

'current leaks... can't find a path to ground' these statements are mutually exclusive.... it either leaks to ground or it goes to nuetral... GFCI detects the dangerous current 'not going to neutral' (not 'going to ground')

Ok, I was trying to speak simply and didn't mean for you to literally take things like "charge up" to mean like charging up a capacitor or anything.

If I set a metal keg on a wooden stand and then connect a live 120V wire to it, but I don't connect neutral or ground.

What then?

If you touch it, you can create the path to ground.

Yes, the GFI will pop and save you.

If there was a ground wire connected to the keg, the GFI would have popped without you having to be involved.
 
I went with ss2-50r (or ss2-50p for male). It is used for RVs and boats and it is 50A rated. It can be pricey but if you look out, you might find a deal.
 
yes, with a live wire connected to a metal keg on a wooden stand, the ground wire would trip a GFCI before your body would...

I should have explained that this was to the control box, not the keg, and a Neutral would be involved, (which is very close to ground unless high current is one only one leg)

so the answer may be to run L1/N/L2 to the control box, and have the GFCI in the control box, then the 3-wire L1/L2+Ground to the elements ... if L1 or L2 leaked current to anywhere but to each other, the GFCI trips..

-mike
 
I should have explained that this was to the control box, not the keg, and a Neutral would be involved, (which is very close to ground unless high current is one only one leg)

The same situation can be applied to the control box. If a hot line come in contact with the panel (assuming it's a metal enclosure), it's the same thing as the keg on a wooden stand scenario. The metal box becomes live with potential and that potential has no where to go until something provides a path to ground.
 
The same situation can be applied to the control box. If a hot line come in contact with the panel (assuming it's a metal enclosure), it's the same thing as the keg on a wooden stand scenario. The metal box becomes live with potential and that potential has no where to go until something provides a path to ground.

Nooooooo... the panel is connected to Neutral(ground potential, or very near) and BIG sparks would fly...
 
Nooooooo... the panel is connected to Neutral(ground potential, or very near) and BIG sparks would fly...

Oh. You are bonding the panel's body to the neutral wire?

I didn't catch that part.

Yeah, sparks would definitely fly.

edit: that's not a good idea, is it? If the panel is bonded to neutral, then that means that any current flowing through a 120v circuit (pump) would be accessible by touching the panel.
 
Oh. You are bonding the panel's body to the neutral wire?

I didn't catch that part.

Yeah, sparks would definitely fly.

edit: that's not a good idea, is it? If the panel is bonded to neutral, then that means that any current flowing through a 120v circuit (pump) would be accessible by touching the panel.


Not only not a good idea, but also illegal. You can NOT use the neutral wire for a ground, or vice versa. Yes, they are ultimately connected to the same bus in the main panel, but it doesn't matter. If I did something like that, I would get fired.
 
Not only not a good idea, but also illegal. You can NOT use the neutral wire for a ground, or vice versa. Yes, they are ultimately connected to the same bus in the main panel, but it doesn't matter. If I did something like that, I would get fired.

Indeed. I am just trying to make sure I understand what's going on.

He said neutral was connected to the panel. I'm not sure if that means literally connected to the panel, or just feeding into and used within the panel.

The 'sparks' comment implies that it's connected to the panel directly, which is bad, but...

I'm not sure what he's got.
 
with high loads of 120, no... probably not the greatest idea.. the neutral could go from 0 potential (with respect to ground) to max of a couple tenths or hundredths of volts... not dangerous.. (the only way that even a ground wire keeps ground potential is by not carrying current, the minute it carries current, it is slightly above ground potential)

lets figure out the actual potential
Voltage = Current X Resistance.. Volts = Amperes X Ohms

If I have 10 foot cord of 4Ga wire.. (0.2485ohms/1000 ft) so .002485ohms)

And 1A of single leg 120V current, the neutral (and the control box) would be at .002485 volts... even if I went to 10A, I am only at .025 volts.. I feel comfortable with that...
 
Not only not a good idea, but also illegal. You can NOT use the neutral wire for a ground, or vice versa. Yes, they are ultimately connected to the same bus in the main panel, but it doesn't matter. If I did something like that, I would get fired.


not illegal... is there a ground from the pole to your service panel? No... just neutral... there is a ground rod near the service panel with relatively MUCH smaller wire than your service wiring, and it is connected DIRECTLY to the Neutral in the panel.. of every house in America... to make my panel legal, I think I would just have to run a small 8-10-12ga? wire to a house ground..

-mike
 
I bought all my receptacles from this supplier. I needed 30A and 15A versions for Kal's control panel. They were by far the cheapest for the exact parts he used and they had great customer service. I'm not sure exactly what you are looking for but I searched for "50a" and a flush mount receptacle comes up for $7.99. (Nema-14-50R)
http://fruitridgesupply.com/search.htm?keyword=50a

I'm not sure why there aren't any pictures on the website as everything I ordered had pictures.
 
not illegal... is there a ground from the pole to your service panel? No... just neutral... there is a ground rod near the service panel with relatively MUCH smaller wire than your service wiring, and it is connected DIRECTLY to the Neutral in the panel.. of every house in America... to make my panel legal, I think I would just have to run a small 8-10-12ga? wire to a house ground..

-mike


Wrong, wrong, wrong. You show me your electrician's certification, and quote me the code in the NEC, and THEN you can tell me my business. What you are going to do, if I am picturing it correctly, is indeed illegal. You can NOT use a neutral for a ground, or a ground for a neutral.
 
I'm going to bow out of this thread now.

What you are doing isn't the safest thing in the world and is not legal under building code. Bernie (electrician) and me (electrical engineer) have both expressed out thoughts.

You have every right to ignore us and do whatever you want to do.

I'm going to go have a pint.

:mug:
 
Wrong, wrong, wrong. You show me your electrician's certification, and quote me the code in the NEC, and THEN you can tell me my business. What you are going to do, if I am picturing it correctly, is indeed illegal. You can NOT use a neutral for a ground, or a ground for a neutral.


I am not trying to flame here, I am also not trying to tell you your business.. But I have a pretty good idea how electricity works, both in the real world and in the theoretical one...


If you are the one saying 'Wrong, wrong, wrong', shouldn't you be supplying the NEC codes? I'm not an electrician, I am, however, an electrical Engineer and feel the statement I supplied above is 100% correct....

Please explain what is incorrect about my statement you quoted above... Again, I feel it is 100% correct...


Now, if we can get back on topic, what sort of economical connectors are people using to do 40-50A service to their control box?
 
not illegal... is there a ground from the pole to your service panel? No... just neutral... there is a ground rod near the service panel with relatively MUCH smaller wire than your service wiring, and it is connected DIRECTLY to the Neutral in the panel.. of every house in America... to make my panel legal, I think I would just have to run a small 8-10-12ga? wire to a house ground..

-mike


Without re-reading everything in the thread ( so going a bit by memory here)
You are running a 6-3 to your panel (no ground) and then running a single conductor (#8 is big enough- NEC 250.122) to a "house ground". What house ground? The only acceptable ground is in the service panel. (NEC 250)You can't just go to a water pipe, because it is not necessarily a continuous path. Same with gas piping. (also 250) You also can't run a single conductor that small by itself. It would need to be in a conduit to protect it from damage. (230.50)As far as using a GFCI without a ground, that is for existing circuits only, not for new installations. (406.3d)

I'm done. Time to join Walker for that beer.
 
Agreed, if we treat this as a sub-panel then yes, there needs to be a separate ground wire run and it must not be bonded to the neutral in the sub-panel. I say 'if', because I guess this is debatable, because it will be a plug in movable box, , not be a hard wired, permanently mounted panel.

I am treating this more like a device, a device with built in GFCI.. I guess UL is more appropriate than NEC, LOL...


It is not really the 6/3 versus 6/4 or 6/3 with Ground, it is the cost of connectors going from $30-$50 to several hundred dollars for a nice recessed male receptacle with 4 connectors rated for 50A...
 
Bernie Brewer -

I will thank you for the kickstart of my brain for a solution that was more *acceptable*, yet can use economical parts..

I may do a L5-20 or just a 5-15 for the 120V aspect, then have the 6/3 with no Neutral, just ground that *only* goes to the 220V SSRs/Elements... (yes, I even could do two, one L6-30 with just 8Ga+gnd for each 23A load to be extra safe! )

This cord would not be required when gas brewing, a separate SSR could control the 300k Btu natural Gas Valve... I hope you aren't a gas plumber also! ;-)
 
What's the difference between the neutral and the ground wire in a 240VAC ckt? Besides color? Assume there are no 120VAC appliances.

passedpawn - with no 120V appliances, you could somewhat treat the other lead as a ground as it connects to ground in the Main panel and is not carrying current... This may not be allowed by code for the spec of the connector you are using... By definition, ground should not carry current... If it carries current, there is a fault (Ground Fault) or it is not ground, but a Neutral
(this is common in stoves and dryers, but new rules say they must all be 4-wire now I think)

simple, eh? if we were in Europe, this would not be an issue... people would all have 240 (and be damn respectful of it!)

-mike
 
What's the difference between the neutral and the ground wire in a 240VAC ckt? Besides color? Assume there are no 120VAC appliances.

I think I have a more correct answer..
1 - according to codes and regulations, the differences are the color and the pin and/or the connector it goes in and out of, and possibly the gauge (real ground might be allowed to be smaller). In the below pic of a NEMA 14-50, if it is connected to the G or the W determines if it is Ground or Neutral.

nema_14-50p.gif


2 - according to an electron, or a color-blind person who has never heard of codes and does not have access to them, there is no stinking difference!

3 - the difference is 'intended use of the conductor'

-mike
 
check these out. I've never heard of "California Standard" but here are recessed male power inlets rated for 240v/50a:

http://www.stayonline.com/california-standard-50-amp-inlets.aspx

(not "economical" at $65 or so, but....)

Thanks!
This info made me realize that option when I saw one reference site that specifically stated that that the replacement of L14-50 is the 'california standard' http://www.stayonline.com/reference-nema-locking.aspx (scroll down to '3-Pole, 4-Wire Grounding' then the L14-50 item.)

Searching eBay for CS6375 gives a $50 'Inlet' connector that does 50A and keeps everybody happy..
 
For practically the same money, you might want to look at 6353EL-B inlet and 6364CRN cordset female connector plug. The inlet has an additional cover strain relief threads to take it off the connectors.
 
For practically the same money, you might want to look at 6353EL-B inlet and 6364CRN cordset female connector plug. The inlet has an additional cover strain relief threads to take it off the connectors.

I plan on going in from the bottom, so strain relief should be not necessary...


I think I have it covered, ***Bernie approved***, and hopefully less than $200 for all.


These inlets for the underside of the control box were bought for $75 shipped for two (can clean up the other for 2nd box, or sell)
CS6375receptacle.jpg


I hope to get this for less than $100.. 6ga :)
powercable.jpg


and these are $8 each on Amazon, will get two, one for each brewing location. (will be mounted very close to main Panel, and with 6ga wire in conduit..)
5194KvhUSjL._SL500_AA300_.jpg



Now we're cooking with electrons!
 
Thanks! That puts a comparison cost on the other one I hope to get that already has the california standard female connector on it! I know how much is too much to pay, and I like the length of this one!
 
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