Lambic early months fermentation during summer

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Pivzavod

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I will be brewing my first lambic (WY Lambic Blend) in late May and summers in NY can get upto 100F. My apartment gets pretty hot and I have a few brewing options. I can keep it in a cooler and maintain lower end of the temp range or leave it at room temp (70+) to excite bugs more. If I could shave a few months off lambic process, this would be my attempt at it.

What do you think of a plan - First 3+ months at higher temp (70+), add fruit, 10+ months at lower temps after summer is over. I plan to do this in 1 6.5 gallon carboy, no secondary.

C&C welcomed.
 
Everything goes out the window with lambic brewing, and I don't think anyone can give you an absolute answer. I say go for it, leave it at room temp.

I've found that it's mostly ambiguity and experimentation when brewing with bugs.
 
Three months is probably premature for fruit.

Let it ride at room temperature. Brett and pedio don't get fussy about higher temperatures like saccharomyces. I don't know that the higher temperatures will accelerate the process but it won't hurt it.
 
In my experiences with higher temps its best to have the bulk of the early fermentation done at cooler temps (65ish) once the fermentation has died down elevated temps are ok

They do however considerably diminish the complexity, and especially the funkiness of the beer. The higher temps also promote lots of acidity in the beer, so when adding fruit becareful to not add a fruit high in acid content as you are likely to make something too sour
 
Let's correct some information here:

First - saccharomyces IS present in the lambic blend from Wyeast

Second - cooler fermentation temps are a good idea for most ales but this is a completely different animal. You have a complex mixture of different microbes that consume each other and consume byproducts from each other. And you want more character - the entire reason for going through the trouble.

Third - the acidity does not come from acid in the fruit, it comes from lactic acid producing bacteria that consume the fruit (and acetic acid from oxidation from long fermentations). Optimal timing of the fruit addition has not been established by anyone.

So like I said, everything goes out the window. (i.e. you use aged, oxidized hops, you infect the beer with bacteria, etc) Do your own thing and see what happens.

Take info from here with a grain of salt...including my own advice.

Cheers
 
Let's correct some information here:

First - saccharomyces IS present in the lambic blend from Wyeast

Who said it wasn't? My comment about sacc had to do with the ongoing fermentation. Temperature control is key during a sacc fermentation because sacc produces fusels and higher alcohols at higher temperatures. Active sacc fermentation is going to drop off after a few days to a week. Active fermentation from there is done by brett, pedio and for a short period of time, possibly lactobacillus. None of those are known to produce fusels or higher alcohols at higher temperatures. They all enjoy warmth.

Third - the acidity does not come from acid in the fruit, it comes from lactic acid producing bacteria that consume the fruit (and acetic acid from oxidation from long fermentations). Optimal timing of the fruit addition has not been established by anyone.

Where are you coming up with this? Fruit definitely contributes acidity to a beer. Different kinds of fruit contributes different types of acids that affect the feel and flavor of the beer. Ryan didn't say all the acidity comes from the fruit. He said the acidity from the fruit can make it too sour.

There can definitely be optimal timing of fruit. Some fruit flavor diminishes over time. Some fruit develop into a harsh flavor/too much sourness if left too long in the fermenter (Cantillon experienced that the first time they attempted their blueberry lambic -- I think oldsock talked about that in his blog).

Furthermore, when you add fruit, you obviously add sugar. That sugar addition is going to affect the end product even in terms of when it's added. If it gets added early, there's more of a chance you're going to get some sacc and lacto fermentation out of it so you're going to get a little less sour and funk out of it, since it's a simple sugar addition. Waiting until fermentation is being driven by brett and pedio makes it more likely those critters are going to use the sugars to develop sour and funk.
 
Let's correct some information here:

First - saccharomyces IS present in the lambic blend from Wyeast
I think Im missing your point on this one, no one was arguing that it wasnt?

Second - cooler fermentation temps are a good idea for most ales but this is a completely different animal. You have a complex mixture of different microbes that consume each other and consume byproducts from each other. And you want more character - the entire reason for going through the trouble.

Are you arguing for or against cool temps? And cooler temps mean a more complex flavor, as it gives all the organisms time to reproduce and do their work. Elevated temps favor bacteria over yeast, so youll get more acidity and less funky/esters at higher temps.

Third - the acidity does not come from acid in the fruit, it comes from lactic acid producing bacteria that consume the fruit (and acetic acid from oxidation from long fermentations). Optimal timing of the fruit addition has not been established by anyone.

Actually this really isnt all that true. Adding a high acid fruit to a beer can make is slightly sour. Adding high acid fruit to a beer thats already sour and it can become overwhelming. How do I know? Ive done this in the past. You cant ignore acid thats in the fruit, I think beers that get fruit should have a softer acid character to begin with

As for fruit additions, I dont think you can say that no one knows when is best. Adding fruit very early and the flavor will diminish considerably. Adding it late is best to preserve the fruit flavor in the beer. If you taste a fresh young fruit lambic it generally has a large fruit bouquet, if you age that same bottle 6mos to a year the flavor has dissipated dramatically, and the bretty/lambic flavors dominate

So like I said, everything goes out the window. (i.e. you use aged, oxidized hops, you infect the beer with bacteria, etc) Do your own thing and see what happens.

Not really true when adding a culture from WY/WL. There arent too many large differences to expect from these blends. The nuances maybe different but in general they all have very similar flavors, and unless you are doing something terribly wrong (tons of 02 etc) it will be tough to produce something terrible

As for aged hops, this isnt necessary with blends, as you dont need the antibacterial protection when your adding a known quantity

This all goes out the window with spontaneous fermentations
 
In my experiences with higher temps its best to have the bulk of the early fermentation done at cooler temps (65ish) once the fermentation has died down elevated temps are ok
isn't that the traditional time to brew lambic (in the cooler months) and let it age through a cold season and a hot season? thought i read that somewhere...
 
if you jump on it, you probably have a month (or you should - though this year it doesn't really seem like that) where you aren't sweltering hot. I'm in agreement with ryane and reverse apache- cool at first as long as you can before you let it ride in the summer. if you're doing 5 gallons, and you don't want to wait- you've got little to lose. let it rip.
 
Ok you got me. Everything I said isn't really true at all. I made it all up. It is better to accept dogma and push out any doubts or possibility that everything is not perfectly understood. Are we in church?

**** me.
 
insubordinateK said:
Ok you got me. Everything I said isn't really true at all. I made it all up. It is better to accept dogma and push out any doubts or possibility that everything is not perfectly understood. Are we in church?

**** me.

No need to get upset. They we just clearing up information for the OP.
 
Ok you got me. Everything I said isn't really true at all. I made it all up. It is better to accept dogma and push out any doubts or possibility that everything is not perfectly understood. Are we in church?

**** me.

hey! i'm in church.
well, i would be- if voodoo had churches.
stupid fringe religion...
 
:off:

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WTF? does that strapping lad with sideburns have a knife???
dammit beer - you made me sly curious...
 
Traditional lambic brewers don't brew during the warm times of the year. The reason given is that the "thermophilic" organisms would overtake the spontaneous fermentation and the beer will turn out poorly.

I don't know if this has much bearing on wild beers where we are inoculating with a commercial mix, but it's certainly worth noting. Anyway most people like to try and brew their lambics when the first phase of fermentation takes place in cool conditions. I don't really have any hard data on how long you need, or really if you need, to have the beer at cooler temps before ambient warmth ceases to become an issue.
 
How long do you recommend that I keep it cool (~65F) for before I let it sit hot (above 70)?

Just a week or two, realistically you just want to minimize the high temps when the sacch are active so they dont produce fusels or other off flavors
 
Along these lines, I am anxious to start a lambic but concerned my initial temps might be too low. I was thinking of holding at ales temps for 7-10 days then slowly lowering to ambient in my basement, which is around 45 right now. It gets up to 60-65 in summer. Will this be too cold for the bugs initially? Should I wait until summer to start and then they will at least get a head start befoer it drops below 50? Thanks,
 
rise, oh necro-thread...

Along these lines, I am anxious to start a lambic but concerned my initial temps might be too low. I was thinking of holding at ales temps for 7-10 days then slowly lowering to ambient in my basement, which is around 45 right now. It gets up to 60-65 in summer. Will this be too cold for the bugs initially? Should I wait until summer to start and then they will at least get a head start befoer it drops below 50? Thanks,
60-65 is the ideal aging temp, according to some sour brewers. so yeah, i would wait until summer so you can move from 70-ish to 60-65 and at least let the bugs get going. 45 is pretty damn cold for the bugs, probably not enough to completely stop them but they will be slooooooow. might take you longer than a year to reach maturity. do you have a warmer closet upstairs where you can stash this brew?

and for the OP:

What do you think of a plan - First 3+ months at higher temp (70+), add fruit, 10+ months at lower temps after summer is over. I plan to do this in 1 6.5 gallon carboy, no secondary.
5 gallon batch in 6.5 gal carboy = too much headspace for aging (secondary). throw in the fact that this beer will be aging at higher temps and i'm willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that he'll get acetobacter in there.

and as previously noted, putting a year+ beer on fruit after only 3 months is on the early side. adding the fruit for the last 3 months is more typical.
 
sweetcell,

Thanks for the reply. I do have a space upstairs but it is more prone to temp swings. I can temp control it for the sac yeast and then let it ride for the bugs? My other concern was moving it and possibly disturbing a pellicle. Any concerns about that or will it reform?
 
I do have a space upstairs but it is more prone to temp swings. I can temp control it for the sac yeast and then let it ride for the bugs? My other concern was moving it and possibly disturbing a pellicle. Any concerns about that or will it reform?
what sort of temp swings are we talking about? how many degrees? and over what time - are we talking daily, or seasonal?

i would move it upstairs. 5 gallons of liquid has quite a big of thermal mass so it takes time for all that beer to change temps. put some insulation around the carboy (sweater, sleeping bag, etc.) and that should limit daily swings.

in my experience, pellicle will reform if needed.
 
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