Force carbonating back sweetened cider?

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

BadgerBrigade

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2011
Messages
953
Reaction score
63
Location
Monterey
I have always carbonated in bottles with residual sugar and let the yeast do it's thing...
I have not even attempted stovetop pasteurization in bottles yet. I just put the cider in a very cold refrigerator.... The last bottle I drank was almost a year old and I didn't have a bottle bomb or any problem.

I'm about to start kegging, But I'm not quite sure how to go about some of this. I normally ferment my cider out totally dry but if I do any back sweetening I'm wondering how this will work?

If I back sweeten the sugar will get eaten by the yeast and make carbonation until I pasteurize the bottles... But how would I pasteurize it in the keg?
I'm assuming I would make the cider and then add the sugar and pasteurize it right then? Then put it in the keg and force carbonate? But how do I stick an entire carboy into a pot of hot water to do that? I really really hate the idea of putting metabisulfite or any product in to kill the yeast... Is there some way to kill the yeast naturally Then force carbonate?

Sulfate gives some people a headache, right?

I would really like to do these processes naturally and not add a processed chemical or ingredient like that... Possible?
 
Post your question in the mead forum. Those guys are always back-sweetening their stuff.

Potassium metabisuphite (KMeta) and/or potasium sorbate the the usual way I think. I've never used either.

You could back-sweeten, carbonate at very cold temps where the yeast is inactive (and carbonation is quickest), bottle from the keg, then pasteurize immediately before any suspended yeast gets busy. I'm making that up, but it seems logical.
 
Short answer: no and yes. You have to kill or remove the yeast to stop it and there isn't any 'natural' way to do either. With kegs, you can filter out the yeast, but it requires a rather expensive ceramic filter.

The alternative is to use a non-fermentable sugar, like lactose, to back-sweeten.

You can back-sweeten meads once you have exceeded the alcohol tolerance of the yeast, but that isn't an option with ciders. Some of the cider manufacturers have isolated yeasts with very low alcohol tolerances (5-6%), but I haven't seen them in the homebrewing market.
 
david_42 said:
Short answer: no and yes. You have to kill or remove the yeast to stop it and there isn't any 'natural' way to do either. With kegs, you can filter out the yeast, but it requires a rather expensive ceramic filter.

The alternative is to use a non-fermentable sugar, like lactose, to back-sweeten.

You can back-sweeten meads once you have exceeded the alcohol tolerance of the yeast, but that isn't an option with ciders. Some of the cider manufacturers have isolated yeasts with very low alcohol tolerances (5-6%), but I haven't seen them in the homebrewing market.

When you say expensive filter what are you talking about expensive wise?
 
The filtering setup will cost you $40-50 and the ceramic filter about another $100.
 
david_42 said:
The filtering setup will cost you $40-50 and the ceramic filter about another $100.

So you're talking $150..... To be able to filter all the yeast out of my cider...
How long will that filter last?

I know that's not cheap but if that will filter my cider for a while that's great! Unless that's only good for like one 5 gallon shot....
 
What about pouring 1 or 2 gallon batches at a time into a pot, bringing the temperature up to 150° and then transferring it into the keg?
Would that be like stovetop pasteurization without the bottles?
Or would that change the flavor?
And for the worse or for the better if it did?
 
Why not just rack to the keg and stick the whole keg in your kettle filled with water?
 
The guy at the homebrew supply store just told me I should be able to back sweeten and the keg should be able to hold the pressure?

Is there some kind of purge that if the pressure gets too high I can just purge it out? And I assume there would be a gauge on the keg or on the regulator that would tell me what the internal pressure is?
 
What winemakers (and meadmakers and cidermakers) do is ferment the beverage until dry. Once it's clear and no longer dropping any lees, the drink is racked into the keg with potassium metabisulfite (sulfites) and sorbate (a preservative). After a couple of days, the wine/cider/mead is sweetened as desired.

The sorbate doesn't kill yeast, but it inhibits yeast reproduction. Once the cider is clear, and it's not dropping sediment any more, that means very little yeast in suspension. Adding the sorbate will stop the yeast from reproducing, and so the cider won't ferment again when sugar/honey/apple juice is added.

Alternatively, the keg can be kept cold in a fridge and that will inhibit fermentation as well.
 
Yooper said:
What winemakers (and meadmakers and cidermakers) do is ferment the beverage until dry. Once it's clear and no longer dropping any lees, the drink is racked into the keg with potassium metabisulfite (sulfites) and sorbate (a preservative). After a couple of days, the wine/cider/mead is sweetened as desired.

The sorbate doesn't kill yeast, but it inhibits yeast reproduction. Once the cider is clear, and it's not dropping sediment any more, that means very little yeast in suspension. Adding the sorbate will stop the yeast from reproducing, and so the cider won't ferment again when sugar/honey/apple juice is added.
.

Any way to not add metabisulfite's to the cider? I heard a lot of people get headaches from sulfites And I really like to go as natural as possible. I have never added any thing to my cider except yeast sugar and the juice, But I'm very new at this.

Is there a way to pasteurize the yeast with out using sulfites or chemicals?

Someone at the beginning of this thread talked about a ceramic filter and said it was around $100 but I'm wondering how long that will last And if that will keep me from having to add sulfates or something like that to my cider?

If I get the family or friends three sheets to the wind off my cider I don't want them to get headaches after..

So is warming up my cider to kill the yeast not going to work? Will it remove any flavor or alcohol?

I would like to be able to back sweeten the cider and have carbonation and do it as natural as possible....
Any way to do this ?

No one has answered if I can just warm the cider to 150° to kill the yeast?
 
b-boy said:
This is what I do. You just have to keep it cold until you drink it all.

Oh, then I won't need to pasteurized this?
So I only pasteurize the bottles if I give it away, But can keep the cider in the keg and not worry about pasteurizing?
That would be great if I don't have to pasteurize...

My plan was after secondary fermentation to put my cider in a bottling bucket and sweeten to taste and then rack it into the keg...
This is my main goal I think....

To be honest I don't really care if it's pasteurized or not as long as it's carbonated, semisweet and drinkable....
I guess the pasteurization would only be important if I'm going to give bottles out to people and don't want bottle bombs, is this correct?
 
Oh, then I won't need to pasteurized this?
So I only pasteurize the bottles if I give it away, But can keep the cider in the keg and not worry about pasteurizing?
That would be great if I don't have to pasteurize...

My plan was after secondary fermentation to put my cider in a bottling bucket and sweeten to taste and then rack it into the keg...
This is my main goal I think....

To be honest I don't really care if it's pasteurized or not as long as it's carbonated, semisweet and drinkable....
I guess the pasteurization would only be important if I'm going to give bottles out to people and don't want bottle bombs, is this correct?

Yes, that's my understanding. I'm no expert, but it's worked for me for 6 batches now. I usually just dump some fresh cider into the keg and rack on top of it. I usually do a 1:4 Ratio (cider to hard cider). I like it a little on the sweet side.
 
Oh, then I won't need to pasteurized this?
So I only pasteurize the bottles if I give it away, But can keep the cider in the keg and not worry about pasteurizing?
That would be great if I don't have to pasteurize...

My plan was after secondary fermentation to put my cider in a bottling bucket and sweeten to taste and then rack it into the keg...
This is my main goal I think....

To be honest I don't really care if it's pasteurized or not as long as it's carbonated, semisweet and drinkable....
I guess the pasteurization would only be important if I'm going to give bottles out to people and don't want bottle bombs, is this correct?

Yep, no need to kill the yeast if you store it at fridge temps. I make 15 gal batches and let it ferment out until dry. Then I add a can or two of frozen juice concentrate to the bottom of a corny keg, rack 5 gal of dry cider on top of it, throw it in the keezer, carb it up, and serve it.

Two cans of frozen concentrate per 5 gal dry cider will yield something not quite as sweet as Hornsbys or Woodchuck. The one on tap right now was backsweetened with raspberry-cranberry juice, and everyone seems to love it.
 
Remember that sulfites are a normal product of fermentation. So if anybody tells you that sulfites give them headaches, and they drink a "sulfite free wine" without headaches that they're full of it. There is no such thing as a sulfite free wine or cider- some might not have "added sulfites" but sulfites are produced during fermentation.

People that are truly sensitive to sulfites (rare, but it happens) can't eat raisins, hot dogs, any dried fruits, etc. There are far more sulfites in raisins than in any homemade wine or cider.

Not important really, and you don't have to add extra sulfites to your cider, but I wanted to point out that most "red wine headaches" do NOT come from sulfites.

If someone can eat a package of raisins, they won't get a headache from wine.
 
Yooper said:
Remember that sulfites are a normal product of fermentation. So if anybody tells you that sulfites give them headaches, and they drink a "sulfite free wine" without headaches that they're full of it. There is no such thing as a sulfite free wine or cider- some might not have "added sulfites" but sulfites are produced during fermentation.

People that are truly sensitive to sulfites (rare, but it happens) can't eat raisins, hot dogs, any dried fruits, etc. There are far more sulfites in raisins than in any homemade wine or cider.

Not important really, and you don't have to add extra sulfites to your cider, but I wanted to point out that most "red wine headaches" do NOT come from sulfites.

If someone can eat a package of raisins, they won't get a headache from wine.

Very good information, thank you. I, just like them were under the impression that the sulfates were what gave you the headaches. A fair amount of people get "wine headaches". What does that come from? Not sulfites?
 
Anyway, the ceramic filter is reusable. Generally, you'll make three runs: a 5 micron poly filter, a 2 micron paper filter, then the 0.5 micron ceramic.

But, keeping it cold also works.

Most cornies have a relief valve set around 125 psi, so even if it got a bit fermented, the keg would not explode.

You would have a 'surprise' if you tapped it at 120 psi.

RWH Fairly good write up.
 
david_42 said:
Anyway, the ceramic filter is reusable. Generally, you'll make three runs: a 5 micron poly filter, a 2 micron paper filter, then the 0.5 micron ceramic.

But, keeping it cold also works.

Most cornies have a relief valve set around 125 psi, so even if it got a bit fermented, the keg would not explode.

You would have a 'surprise' if you tapped it at 120 psi.

RWH Fairly good write up.

Yeah I think It should be ok. I didn't know a keg could take as much pressure as it could. The guy at the HB store told me to just put it in the keg and drink it... Lol
 
Back
Top