Basement-Natural Gas Rig

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SuckaMooHudda

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2011
Messages
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Location
Chicago
Basement is as follows:

3-10" 75,000 rated btu Banjo Burners converted to NG (which brings btu down to a rating of 60,000 btu)

Trunk Duct Fabricated Hood with a Hurricane 435 CFM Inline Fan
CO detector
4 Basement windows one on each exterior wall of the basement (all opened)

I will post pics but I believe I have everything covered with regards to venting and fresh air (plus a CO detector just in case of course)

So now on to my question...I need a TRUE EXPERT HVAC TECH to tell me if I have taken sufficient safety measures? No offense to all of you IMHO guys, but I need a non-humble opinion based on facts as I have read through a litany of FOR and AGAINST natural gas basement setups and most seem to be "IMHO".

I went with logic on this build and would just like a warm and fuzzy, "everything looks good" from a true expert in the HVAC field with some data to back it up.

A very special THANK YOU to anyone who can help with factual feedback.

Thanks for reading all!!!
 
Here are the pics

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I went with logic on this build and would just like a warm and fuzzy, "everything looks good" from a true expert in the HVAC field with some data to back it up.

A very special THANK YOU to anyone who can help with factual feedback.

Thanks for reading all!!!

I recommend this link. It's a calculator for range hood CFM's.

http://www.vent4less.com/78.html?m9:post=determine-range-hood-cfm-in-3-easy-steps

I also thought it pertinent to include the web site disclaimer.

"Be aware that building codes and local regulations differ from region to region and they also may change over time. We assume no liability for omissions, errors or the outcome of any home improvement project. Exercise reasonable caution and follow your current codes and regulations. When in doubt consult a licensed ventilation contractor in your area. "

And, YES, I am an HVAC guy who works in a hospital.
 
Now that I've had some coffee to mellow my mood.:)

The build looks great and I wish I had the time, effort, and space to be more high tech.

Didn't see exactly where the CO sensor is, but pay attention to it. CO can KILL!!!

Happy brewing!!!:tank:
 
Rule of thumb for an island hood is 100 cfm per sq ft hood opening. 50 cfm if the hood is against a wall. Now here's the thing. The guy who made the fan says it will move 435 cfm but at what static pressure? Somewhere in the paperwork there should be a static pressure chart for the fan. The next thing is that the small round duct you installed probably will lower the fan cfm because of the restriction (static pressure). For instance, at .1 static a 6" pipe can deal with 100 cfm, an 8" 200 cfm a 10" about 500. So, depending on what the manufacturer says the static is at 435, the diameter of the pipe will have to match it. Take a look at the Grainger catalog for exhaust fans for a hood. Now, for combustion air for the burners, 1 sq in for every 1000 btu. You have plenty of windows for makeup air for the hood and combustion air for the burners as long as they open.
 
Where is your fresh air coming from? Ducting out with an adequate volume is great, but unless you're pumping in adequate air, you're not going to have an effective "closed system."

That is IMHO, but I think it's important, due to the principle of convection.
 
Thanks for the response....sincerely. The disclaimer above is exactly why I am asking specific people on homebrewtalk.com for some information.... my local HVAC expert doesn't seem to think I need too much and that my 435 CFM fan is more than sufficient for the amount of space, number of windows and BTUs. Apparently i am being paranoid. Funny how potential death can do that to a fella. "Exercise caution " and " when in doubt consult a local ventilation contractor". What if your local ventilation contractor is the guy that got a D- in HVAC class? Maybe I should buy some Canaries? ;-)
 
The fan is actually made for 6" duct in and out so i assume the Mfr has taken that into consideration in their rating???? I would hope....
 
Fresh air is only coming from the four windows. 2 are quite large and have ladders set up as escape wells with openings of approximately 4 feet by 4 feet. The other 2 are approximately 30 inches by 40 inches. One window per each exterior wall. I am gonna draw a sketch after i do an accurate measure of sq' so you all know exactly what I am talking about.
 
Wish there was a true and accurate mechanical test you could perform to show oxygen levels, etc.... I know when I had the flames on for 10 minutes everything was blue as could be the entire time. SO thats good, right? CO detectors are great and i do have one, but it is a digital device and i get nervous with them. PARANOIA AGAIN!!!
 
SMH you need more than one CO detector, it can get in the walls. The inline fan is used to boost long duct runs, not for venting. You need a mushroom vent for that. Your set-up may work, but no tech can tell you it's safe. Safe would be a commercial stove instillation up to code. I'm not saying your system is bad or will not work, but it's not code. If you had a fire with the vent system running the house would burn in minutes, due to that fan and not having fire dampers (like fanning a camp fire). If you open only the farthest window to make a wind tunnel, that may help move the air. I like the install, who ever did it has some skills. Try it and let us know how it works. Also check your home owners insurance to see if this is covered. I've worked HVAC here in Chicago for 15 years.
 
I actually have several CO detectors in the house 1 in the basement where I brew 1 in the kitchen just above the basement brewing area 1 additional on the first floor by the laundry room and office hall and all 3 bedrooms on the top floor have a combination fire and CO detector.
 
I just ran/tested the burners just to boil some water for about 40 minutes and it vented like a mutha!!! We have snow here in Chicago and it melted a good 5 foot circle off of the house wall. The duct got very warm but not extremely hot. Obviously compared to the outside temp and snow it was very warm, thus the melting/dry area... the two windows on the same wall as the burners were sucking air in like crazy. everything seemed perfectly fine and the CO detector did not go off. I did open all four Windows. I don't know if it was necessary and it was COLD....but very tolerable. Sweatshirt, jeans and running shoes temp....
I decided to add a couple feet to the back of the hood and some flanges on the side as well just to collect as much vapor/air/(or whatever as I could, Juno to make it more like a funnel instead of a box
 
I don't know much about HVAC but I do know that if you plumbed a cold air intake down to floor level behind the stand, you'd establish a decent local upflow that would affect the temperature of the rest of the basement a lot less than the window method.
 
Ok, so no oppinions, just facts. I've been brewing in my basement with 32 tip natural gas burners, 150,000 btu for 3 years now. No dizziness, no headaches, no stomach cramps, and I'm obviously still alive. Plus, my carboxy hemoglobin is already elevated because I smoke tobacco, so I would be the first to experince side effects from CO poisoning (I know that because I'm an EH&S guy). I brew only when it's cold out (below 50 degrees F) and open two windows on either side of the basement. No vent hood. No CO detector. So basically, you're set up blows mine away and you're introducing less combustion gasses into said space. Draw your own conclusions. I hope you find a certified expert that puts your mind at ease. In the mean time, brew some beer while it's still cold outside.
 
I am an hvac guy. licensed as a gas fitter in massachusetts.

I would buy a CO experts low level health monitor or an HVAC tool designed to take instantaneous readings of ambient air as low as 1 ppm. If you are consistently getting above 10ppm in the ambient air you need more combustion air and exhaust. (Co alarms go off at 70ppm you need to leave the house at 70 levels much lower than 70 will make you sick but the alarms won't go off).

Here is the real legal advice that I can give you:

No code will approve your set up and your burner manufacturer probably does not have them listed for indoor use. You are taking the liability both as far as fire and CO are concerned. Since you did the work yourself your homeowners policy might cover a loss. If you had hired a contractor to do this they would not.
 
If you have to improve capture: Install side and rear flashing, all the way to the floor if need be. Lower the hood.

You may have to open only one window and close the rest. Cross currents are the achilles' heel of island style hoods, and can push all the CO2, CO, unburnt fuel, heat, and steam out from under the hood and into the room. However, cross currents can also work to your advantage by moving gas out of your basement window, or disadvantage by moving gas to your first floor. Commercially, all gasses must be captured by the hood. You could always perform a smoke test if you are worried about capture. Its pretty cool to visually see how well, or how poorly, a hood is exhausting. Just inform the neighbors first.
 
An HVAC guy usually doesn't get involved with sizing up hoods. Companies that sell commercial kitchens size up hoods. The inline fan is probably rated at 435 CFM with no ductwork attached. The fan is used in Radon systems or as one person mentioned, a duct booster. The motor is inside of the housing, make sure it is moisture proof. The motor in an exhaust fan designed for a hood, isn't in the exhaust air. If your gas line is held to the perforated metal with cable ties, you might want to use clamps.
 
An HVAC guy usually doesn't get involved with sizing up hoods. Companies that sell commercial kitchens size up hoods. The inline fan is probably rated at 435 CFM with no ductwork attached. The fan is used in Radon systems or as one person mentioned, a duct booster. The motor is inside of the housing, make sure it is moisture proof. The motor in an exhaust fan designed for a hood, isn't in the exhaust air. If your gas line is held to the perforated metal with cable ties, you might want to use clamps.

A sincere Thanks!!!!... to all that have been posting on this thread. I have been able to take something away from every post. Hopefully it will continue to grow and we will all keep learning from it. I will do my best to keep everyone posted on how the system is running and if I run into any ventilation issues. I plan on running a batch this Saturday with my HVAC guy present. He stated he is more than confident enough to sit there the entire time while I brew. How can I argue with that?

**The fan was recommended by my local HBS as good for hot and humid conditions. I would never use cable ties to hold the gas pipe, it is actually four steel U clamps.
 
I don't know much about HVAC but I do know that if you plumbed a cold air intake down to floor level behind the stand, you'd establish a decent local upflow that would affect the temperature of the rest of the basement a lot less than the window method.

My original design actually had a line to bring in fresh air to just under the burners but after a while I had to stop spending money. ;-) ....And figured I would just open the windows instead. I will probably have that line installed next year, maybe earlier if I have to, but hopefully that's not the case. I like the idea of having all the windows open & diluting the potentially bad air with fresh air . Given that I have 7 CO detectors in the house if there is a problem anywhere I should hear it, right?
 
I hear ya, but that leads to my next/bigger concern, the hotter months. I have been trying to wrap my brain around what will possibly happen this summer. At first I would just assume that hot air will be sucked in and the basement will heat up. But then I remembered the setup I had my freshman year of college in my dorm that was not air conditioned. One box fan in one window pointing in and one in the other pointing out. I could not believe how cool the room became with using only 2 fans. But that was a tiny dorm room. I do have central air conditioning but still wonder how it will all work out with open windows. A fresh air return line as previously discussed??? Trial and error I suppose. Or I just simply avoid the 90+ degree days. The best part of switching to a 10 gallon setup is that I can afford to not brew on extreme days as I now will have 2X the amount of beer in the same amount time as a 5 gallon brew-day.
 
Well, with your set up, you could probably get away with brewing in the summer. You're actively pushing air with a fan. I can't, but my ventillation is passive, which is why I can only brew when there is a substantial differential between outside and inside temps. High winds might be your worst enemy. If the wind out competes your fan, then you might get a back draft. Other than that, I see no reason why your ventiallation wouldn't function during the summer. Like someone mentioned earlier, a quick smoke test will tell the story on that.
 
If you have to improve capture: Install side and rear flashing, all the way to the floor if need be. Lower the hood.

You may have to open only one window and close the rest. Cross currents are the achilles' heel of island style hoods, and can push all the CO2, CO, unburnt fuel, heat, and steam out from under the hood and into the room. However, cross currents can also work to your advantage by moving gas out of your basement window, or disadvantage by moving gas to your first floor. Commercially, all gasses must be captured by the hood. You could always perform a smoke test if you are worried about capture. Its pretty cool to visually see how well, or how poorly, a hood is exhausting. Just inform the neighbors first.

A smoke test sounds very cool. What would i use? That seems like it would put and end to at least part of the debate, sort of....
 
Fire marshal uses some sort of smoke bomb. Attach a small firework grade smoke bomb to a stick and walk it around the perimeter of your cooking area. I would suggest using white smoke and declare yourself Pope of The Biertican, make the wife and kids kiss your ring, etc.
 
Hahahaha!!! Well, that's what we do every Sunday anyway.....so I guess I could switch things up with "white" smoke this time.
 
I'd think you could also use a stick of incense or something similar. People do that to find drafts in their houses.
 
I'm not an "expert", but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

I've brewed 5 or 6 all-grain batches in my basement with propane with just one small window open and a relatively small vent fan (and a CO monitor about 3 feet from the burner). My last two I also put a fan in the window to push more air out but my first 4 batches I didn't do that and had no problems.

It's probably more propane being burned, but I justified this procedure to myself thinking about people who use gas ovens for hours at a time with less ventilation and don't die, so I'm pretty sure I will be OK as well.
 
I'm not an "expert", but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

I've brewed 5 or 6 all-grain batches in my basement with propane with just one small window open and a relatively small vent fan (and a CO monitor about 3 feet from the burner). My last two I also put a fan in the window to push more air out but my first 4 batches I didn't do that and had no problems.

It's probably more propane being burned, but I justified this procedure to myself thinking about people who use gas ovens for hours at a time with less ventilation and don't die, so I'm pretty sure I will be OK as well.

Great news.....Thanks for the input, I certainly appreciate all of the comments from brewers who have been brewing with gas in their basements.

Keep em coming!!!
 
Nice!!!

Well, brew day went off without a hitch.....Total time from adding water to pots to complete cleanup, 5-1/2 hours. I had a lot of distractions though (buddies over to "help") and it was the first time with this setup. The burners were freaking AMAZING!!! It will take me a few times to get into a groove and I found a few things I need to add...nothing major, just some nice add-ons that will make things more efficient and help keep certain things closer at hand, and such. But as far as the gas and venting goes, all is good....I AM STILL ALIVE, to all of you "death will come to all basement gas brewers" electric brewers, IT CAN BE DONE, SAFELY...

I was advised that there was absolutely NO odor throughout the rest of the house, only outside in the back yard where the vent exits the house.
:)

I did however forget to take a gravity reading.....(frustrating). I only have a pre-boil reading. Oh well. Fermenting is strong already so I am not worried about it.

I will keep y'all posted on anything I can think of regarding this basement gas set-up. I am sure I will think of something and I am sure as the weather turns warmer I will have new problems to face.

Til next time.....CHEERS!!!
 
Just for the hell of it.....and because i am bored, here's a pic of the beer's final resting place. I am so glad I did all of these builds to "save" money. I will probably break even in about 17 years.

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Update: Three successful batches so far and have my brew day/"system" down already. Hit my gravity of 1.060 dead on the money on yesterday's batch. Still no issues with CO or the likes. Built a counter-flow chiller as my latest bell and whistle. Highly recommend it if you don't currently use one. Used a suggestion from a friend and followed the steps on a Youtube video for the build of the chiller. If you have been thinking about doing it, bite the bullet and just do it. You will not regret it, I promise.

I forgot to add that when I made this stand I installed some "L" shaped angle steel for the full length to keep the flame/pots off the perforated angle iron and the iron still looks perfect (not faded and "crispy") unlike some similar stands. It was fairly cheap, simple to add on, and acts as a very good burner grate.

One more quick suggestion for a very cost effective pump cover.....I just took a piece of 4" duct and cut it to fit the full length of the pump with a couple inches of overhang and then squeezed it to about 3" to create some tension then just slipped it over the pump. It holds on tight, it has not moved at all and most importantly it keeps the pumps dry.

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...Just some added info if you are considering building this stand. I copied this stand from "Wallace" and have noticed it has become a very popular build.

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You have a final price list and cost for the exhaust system?

Just scored a sweet natural gas range and want to build something similar for mine
 
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