2000w element BK

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McCuckerson

McCuckerson

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Hi everybody,

Last night I tested a prototype BK built with a 7gal AL pot and 2000w HD element on a 20A dedicated circuit. I brought 6.25 gal to a boil in 35 min, and measured the evaporation rate after 60 min to be at 5.75 gal.

My next test will be to increase the gravity of water by mixing the appropriate amount of table sugar and repeating the same test. I will be measuring time to boil, evap rate and carmalization at the element.

I am very close to concluding that 5 gallon batches can be boiled with 120VAC.

Am I missing anything? Thanks!
 
McCuckerson said:
I am very close to concluding that 5 gallon batches can be boiled with 120VAC.

Am I missing anything? Thanks!
Click to expand...

Nope, your not missing anything. I wouldn't even bother wasting the sugar. Lots of folks build powerful kettles w/ controllers because they can and they work well, but I have brewed w/ 120VAC simply for years. I think a lot of people will follow... How about a few pics?

You may be able to increase the boil and boiloff by insulating the outside of the pot, simply wraping a towel around the kettle might help a bit, or there are fancier materials to use if you wnt something more permanent.
 
wilserbrewer said:
Nope, your not missing anything. I wouldn't even bother wasting the sugar. Lots of folks build powerful kettles w/ controllers because they can and they work well, but I have brewed w/ 120VAC simply for years. I think a lot of people will follow... How about a few pics?

You may be able to increase the boil and boiloff by insulating the outside of the pot, simply wraping a towel around the kettle might help a bit, or there are fancier materials to use if you wnt something more permanent.
Click to expand...
My concern was with the phantom wort-scorching-high-density element myth. I have read of the concern, but have never witnessed credible evidence supporting that it actually occurs. I have also read several reports that state it is 100% myth (like most other things in the HB craft)..... I thought the sugar water, albeit different starches entirely, would test the scorch issue.

For the insulation, I was thinking of wood-clad. I know its not the best in terms of R-value, but man is it cool looking!

Thoughts?
 
You can boil with 1 watt if you have enough insulation. As heat energy accumulates, the temperature will rise. The other side of the equation is the heat loss through conduction (pot) and convection (steam). So, insulate your pot (mineral wool?) and cover pot until you reach boil (you want it uncovered during boil).
 
McCuckerson said:
For the insulation, I was thinking of wood-clad. I know its not the best in terms of R-value, but man is it cool looking!

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Agreed, wood-clad would look cool, might make the pot a little heavy and bulky to move clean etc...up to you. I put function over form, but that's just my choice.

Oh, never had any scorching problems w/ 2000w HD elements. Don't ever dry fire or you'll soon hear a loud bang-pop noise.:mug:
 
passedpawn said:
..... cover pot until you reach boil (you want it uncovered during boil).
Click to expand...
Agreed, I have boiled with the lid on and off-flavors were definitely present! That HB myth I beleive.

Insulation is the key. Do you guys use that futuristic bubble wrap that they sell at the BB stores?
 
samc said:
Is that 1/2 gallon boil off amount typical of a small electric brew system?
Click to expand...
I don't know just yet. I am testing it right now with the kettle wrapped in my carhart jacket. I want to see if boil off changes with insulation. What I really like is that this size element brought 6gal to a nice rolling boil and kept it there. If this works properly, there will be no need for PIDs or PWM in a BK.

If I can plan on 1/2 gallon boil off per batch, then I will be very happy with that.:rockin:
 
McCuckerson said:
Agreed, I have boiled with the lid on and off-flavors were definitely present! That HB myth I beleive.

Insulation is the key. Do you guys use that futuristic bubble wrap that they sell at the BB stores?
Click to expand...

I use it (the insulation, Relflectix I think it's called). It's great stuff, but I only use it on my mash tun. I am under the impression that it's like a lot of other plastics that can't handle boiling temps. That would be the ideal solution, though. Try it!
 
Probably not as efficient as your system, but I have used 1 1KW bucket heaters with success for 6.5 gal boils- but the reflectix is key for increase in boil rate...made a big difference, have all around and on bottom and also on the lid. I love how quiet the boil is.

have not dealt with regulation of the boil with pids/ssr yet...will probably go 220 with keggle, and deal with at that time.
 
McCuckerson said:
My concern was with the phantom wort-scorching-high-density element myth. I have read of the concern, but have never witnessed credible evidence supporting that it actually occurs. I have also read several reports that state it is 100% myth (like most other things in the HB craft)..... I thought the sugar water, albeit different starches entirely, would test the scorch issue.

For the insulation, I was thinking of wood-clad. I know its not the best in terms of R-value, but man is it cool looking!

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

I believe the myth you refer to has nothing to do with a boil kettle. The whole HWD scortching thing as I recall was with respect to using a HWD element in a RIMS tube not in a boil kettle.
 
Sawdustguy said:
I believe the myth you refer to has nothing to do with a boil kettle. The whole HWD scortching thing as I recall was with respect to using a HWD element in a RIMS tube not in a boil kettle.
Click to expand...
I remember the Pol preaching to never use anything more than ULWD element in the boil kettle. Either way, I am very happy as to how this experiment is progressing.
 
McCuckerson said:
If I can plan on 1/2 gallon boil off per batch, then I will be very happy with that.:rockin:
Click to expand...

What you can try, and what has worked well for me, is rather than boiling for a specific amount of time, or a set amount of boil off, I simply boil until I have reached a specific volume. Basicly I start the boil and add the bittering addition, then figure flavor and aroma timing by what I have left in the kettle...sounds complicated but in reality it is pretty simple. Usually a 60 - 75 minute boil depending, but a target final volume is the key IMO, rather than a specific boil time or boil off amount.
 
wilserbrewer said:
What you can try, and what has worked well for me, is rather than boiling for a specific amount of time, or a set amount of boil off, I simply boil until I have reached a specific volume. Basicly I start the boil and add the bittering addition, then figure flavor and aroma timing by what I have left in the kettle...sounds complicated but in reality it is pretty simple. Usually a 60 - 75 minute boil depending, but a target final volume is the key IMO, rather than a specific boil time or boil off amount.
Click to expand...

Use a refractometer and boil to a specific gravity.
 
Equally good methods and if those work for you then go for it. I am hoping the boil off will be more consistent with the element versus the infinitely adjustable valve on my LPG tank. Also, if I miss it by a few points I will not be that broken up about it.

I still cannot believe just how easy it was to boil 6 gallons with this "tiny" element. I have been planning an EBK for a while but the infrastructure portion of the project has always been the snag. Awesome, just freakin awesome.....
 
I have 2 1500 watt elements in my kettle, and they work fine. I don't have issues with wort scorching either with HWD elements. In fact, My wort was darker before I put in the elements. I boil off about 1-1.25 gallons per hour with my setup.
 
devilishprune said:
I have 2 1500 watt elements in my kettle, and they work fine. I don't have issues with wort scorching either with HWD elements. In fact, My wort was darker before I put in the elements. I boil off about 1-1.25 gallons per hour with my setup.
Click to expand...
Do they both stay on the entire time, or do you turn one off once boil is achieved?
 
I haven't decided what I want to do yet. I'm leaning towards 2 elements so I can get more boil-off though.
 
I am going to E-brew this weekend. I am stoked, I hate paying blue rhino 20+ bucks for a 1/2 full tank of propane.

Do you guys think the size of the kettle has anything to do with boil rate? or the ability to boil with lower wattage? Right now the 2KW element is in a 7.5gal AL pot. If I moved the element to a keggle would I still achieve a boil for the same size batch? It should right? I mean its all based on the size of the liquid the element is in?

I'm cooking up a 120VAC, 2 keggle system..... Pics to come soon!!!! once I buck up the membership fee!

E-brew...... That sounds like Hebrew.... I swear I haven't had a drop yet.
 
McCuckerson said:
Do you guys think the size of the kettle has anything to do with boil rate?
Click to expand...

Your boil-off rate is ONLY determined by how much energy you put into the pot.

If you put a 1500W element into 2 very different pots, they would both boil off the exact same amount in the same time. The one with the wider mouth might evaporate a bit more, but it would be insignificant.
 
McCuckerson said:
Hi everybody,

Last night I tested a prototype BK built with a 7gal AL pot and 2000w HD element on a 20A dedicated circuit. I brought 6.25 gal to a boil in 35 min, and measured the evaporation rate after 60 min to be at 5.75 gal.
Click to expand...

Is that "brought 6.25 gallons of ground water to a boil in 35 minutes"?
 
Walker said:
Is that "brought 6.25 gallons of ground water to a boil in 35 minutes"?
Click to expand...
No sorry, IPA was tapped that night.... Its funny how a good beer makes you lose track of time. The water was just over 100F, and it may have been a bit longer than 35min. My second experiment the following day (sober) I witnessed about 2.5 deg/min, so a 170f sparge to boil should be around 20min give or take.
 
McCuckerson said:
No sorry, IPA was tapped that night.... Its funny how a good beer makes you lose track of time. The water was just over 100F, and it may have been a bit longer than 35min. My second experiment the following day (sober) I witnessed about 2.5 deg/min, so a 170f sparge to boil should be around 20min give or take.
Click to expand...

ok. That's more like it. I was going to call shenanigans on you. :D

with perfect insulation, it should take about 5 minutes to heat up 6.25 gallons by 10*F with 2000W.

edit: 105*F to 212*F would take about 50 minutes in a perfect world.
 
passedpawn said:
Your boil-off rate is ONLY determined by how much energy you put into the pot.

If you put a 1500W element into 2 very different pots, they would both boil off the exact same amount in the same time. The one with the wider mouth might evaporate a bit more, but it would be insignificant.
Click to expand...

This is only true when you ignore heat loss. Some of that 1500W will be "wasted" through the surface area of the pot. The optimal pot size (that minimizes surface area losses) is h = 2r.

In other words, the pot DOES make a difference.
 
jkarp said:
In other words, the pot DOES make a difference.
Click to expand...

Absolutely the pot makes a difference...I have a hunch that keggles take a lot more energy due to the mass and the skirt both top and bottom...I'm afraid a 2000w element in a keggle would be very unimpressive.

McCuckerson said:
Do you guys think the size of the kettle has anything to do with boil rate? or the ability to boil with lower wattage? Right now the 2KW element is in a 7.5gal AL pot. If I moved the element to a keggle would I still achieve a boil for the same size batch? It should right? I mean its all based on the size of the liquid the element is in?

I'm cooking up a 120VAC, 2 keggle system..... Pics to come soon!!!! once I buck up the membership fee!

E-brew...... That sounds like Hebrew.... I swear I haven't had a drop yet.
Click to expand...

I would do a lot more testing before I attempted a keggle 2000w boil, perhaps a ton of isulation, but just all the surface area of a keg, and the mass has me concerned that it is much hungrier for energy....Pol reported needing 3700W to keep a boil in a keggle.
 
jkarp said:
This is only true when you ignore heat loss. Some of that 1500W will be "wasted" through the surface area of the pot. The optimal pot size (that minimizes surface area losses) is h = 2r.

In other words, the pot DOES make a difference.
Click to expand...

You are right. But the difference in heat lost from one pot to another would be minimal. Very minimal. And, with an electric HLT/BK, you're free to insulate if you wish.
 
wilserbrewer said:
Absolutely the pot makes a difference...I have a hunch that keggles take a lot more energy due to the mass and the skirt both top and bottom...I'm afraid a 2000w element in a keggle would be very unimpressive.



I would do a lot more testing before I attempted a keggle 2000w boil, perhaps a ton of isulation, but just all the surface area of a keg, and the mass has me concerned that it is much hungrier for energy....Pol reported needing 3700W to keep a boil in a keggle.
Click to expand...

4000watts in my keggle is good to go. 3700 watts might be fine as well, but I have 2 2000w elements
 
With all that being said, why can I easily boil 6.5 gallons of H2O in an AL pot? AL is the better conducter and should be losing a ton of heat thru its walls. Yet it boiled the water impressively.

I do think JKarp is right: pot geometry has a large effect. You could not boil with an element in a pot that is 5' diameter by 3" deep; the convection would never occur. I think I'll leave it in the the AL pot until I go 220V. Anyway, I am still happy with the fact that a 5 gallon batch can be boiled with 120v..... we do agree on that right?
 
McCuckerson said:
With all that being said, why can I easily boil 6.5 gallons of H2O in an AL pot? AL is the better conducter and should be losing a ton of heat thru its walls. Yet it boiled the water impressively.

I do think JKarp is right: pot geometry has a large effect. You could not boil with an element in a pot that is 5' diameter by 3" deep; the convection would never occur. I think I'll leave it in the the AL pot until I go 220V. Anyway, I am still happy with the fact that a 5 gallon batch can be boiled with 120v..... we do agree on that right?
Click to expand...

Glad to hear you are successful with your setup.
 
IrregularPulse said:
Yes sir. I am building (almost done. where the hell is that free time) jkarps CTB20. It's exciting to know that I could essentially do a 5G batch with it. I thought the 2000W element would limit me to 3.5G batches.
Click to expand...
That's what I thought too until I walked out into the garage and it was like a Turkish Sauna.... I expected to see some fat harry guy sitting in the corner. Instead I saw 6.5 gallons bubbling away. Not a crazy boil, but the nice roller. The roller that gently lifts your hops and says "come on out hop oils and infuse my IPA....." I'm doing it.
 
Hi guys,

I brewed a 5.5g batch of ordinary bitters on this system last night. It went REALLY well. The mash out temp was 170f (no sparge) so I didn't have that far to go for the boil. I got about 72% efficiency from a 10lb grain bill.

The most surprising thing about the boil was the lack of boil-over. I ran the element full on for the entire boil. The transition from hot to boil was slight and I was able to just skim off the hot break. I don't know if this is because the element's power is so low (2000kW). There was some residue on the element but it came off easily with a chore boy.

:rockin:5.5g brew session with 120VAC power is possible with a bit of patience!:rockin:
 
Out of curiosity, are you using a heat stick, or do you have the element mounted in the pot?

I am looking at moving soon, and had been tossing the idea around about adding 2 2000W 120v elements to a Keggle, and heavily insulating with a bit of Kaowool I have around. Your tests are definetly promising to me on what I can pull off now.
 
McCuckerson said:
Hi guys,

I brewed a 5.5g batch of ordinary bitters on this system last night. It went REALLY well. The mash out temp was 170f (no sparge) so I didn't have that far to go for the boil. I got about 72% efficiency from a 10lb grain bill.

The most surprising thing about the boil was the lack of boil-over. I ran the element full on for the entire boil. The transition from hot to boil was slight and I was able to just skim off the hot break. I don't know if this is because the element's power is so low (2000kW). There was some residue on the element but it came off easily with a chore boy.

:rockin:5.5g brew session with 120VAC power is possible with a bit of patience!:rockin:
Click to expand...

Was the boil decent? A rolling boil on ~7 gallons?

How long did it take to heat from tap up to strike temp?
 

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