How Did This "Hard water is good for dark ales" myth get started?

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

jdc2

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2009
Messages
127
Reaction score
1
Location
USA
I keep seeing in various threads the idea that hard water is
good for dark ales, usually when the brewers dark ales
are coming out well but their light beers aren't. It's not
as bad (or stupid/dangerous) as the "Bleach is not effective
unless you add vinegar" myth, but still....??
Jim
 
Because the roasted grains have more buffering abilities than do the lighter kilned grains.

The acidulated bleach thing comes from a chemist at Five Star, IIRC, who on a podcast spent more time discussing the proper use, mixture, and application of acidulated bleach for homebrewing application than he did his own product.
 
I keep seeing in various threads the idea that hard water is
good for dark ales, usually when the brewers dark ales
are coming out well but their light beers aren't. It's not
as bad (or stupid/dangerous) as the "Bleach is not effective
unless you add vinegar" myth, but still....??
Jim

Hmmm... I'm not sure what you're saying. My hard water is very high in bicarbonate and I have a fairly high residual alkalinity. Which means, in short, that my water is very good for dark beers. For lighter colored beers, I need to add RO water (and some salts to add back calcium, sulfate, and chloride) to get my residual alkalinity down to a decent level. My hard, untreated, water is best for beers in the SRM range of 18-22. That's pretty dark!

What's the "myth" you wish to correct?
 
I think people say hard when they mean alkaline.

Bleach is less effective, as a sanitizer, at higher pH.
 
Traditionally, the water from Burton On Trent in England was held to be the "gold standard" for brewing bitters. See Burtonization. Other towns/areas have different water profiles, which have come to be accepted as good for their regional style of beer.

BTW - I think it is the residual alkalinity, not the hardness per se, that determines "fitness" for a certain style although both are a function of the carbonate in the water.

I am really only just getting into water chemistry though, so take what I say with a pinch of calcium carbonate.

See here for more details.
 
Ah, that makes perfect sense! That clears up my question on what myth we're talking about.

"Hard" and "alkaline" aren't interchangeable terms.

Right, which must be how it all started. They think because they
have a lot of sulfates in their beer, that's why their dark beers
come out well and their light beers don't, when it's probably
because they are fermenting at too high a temp or they have
long lags because of using dry yeast, and the dark malts cover
up the flavor defects.

Bleach is perfectly effective without acid. It may be marginally
quicker acting with acid, but the difference wouldn't be noticed
by a human. On the other hand, the death of the brewer due
to chlorine gas formed would certainly effect the number of
batches he gets to finish.
Jim
 
Right, which must be how it all started. They think because they
have a lot of sulfates in their beer, that's why their dark beers
come out well and their light beers don't, when it's probably
because they are fermenting at too high a temp or they have
long lags because of using dry yeast, and the dark malts cover
up the flavor defects.

Bleach is perfectly effective without acid. It may be marginally
quicker acting with acid, but the difference wouldn't be noticed
by a human. On the other hand, the death of the brewer due
to chlorine gas formed would certainly effect the number of
batches he gets to finish.
Jim

You've got two trains of thoughts going here, so I'll respond one at a time.

Your theory that: "they have a lot of sulfates in their beer, that's why their dark beers come out well and their light beers don't, when it's probably because they are fermenting at too high a temp or they have long lags because of using dry yeast, and the dark malts cover up the flavor defects" is ridiculous.

Water chemistry is HUGE and blaming good dark beers on not being able to taste bad brewing practices (long lag time with dry yeast?!?)over the flavor of dark malt is just silly. I think that you're just throwing ideas out there, but there are definitely some water chemistry issues involved that are better explanations of off-flavors than dry yeast and a long lag time.

Secondly- chlorine gas from vinegar and bleach? Please provide your references. Sure, there would be risk involved especially in large quantities, but not like a cup of ammonia in a cup of bleach. We were talking about very small quantities, just enough to lower the pH slightly to make better sanitizing. (Note- I do NOT do this. I wouldn't. I use star-san or Iodophor for sanitizing anyway).
 
Right, which must be how it all started. They think because they
have a lot of sulfates in their beer, that's why their dark beers
come out well and their light beers don't, when it's probably
because they are fermenting at too high a temp or they have
long lags because of using dry yeast, and the dark malts cover
up the flavor defects.

Who is this "they" you talk about? Links?
 
I moved this thread out of "brew science" since it seems like there is little in this thread that involves actual science like water chemistry, or even the chemistry of mixing bleach and vinegar (which I do NOT recommend). This seems like just a thread criticizing brewers who believe in water chemistry, so it's being moved to "general" discussion.
 
Right, which must be how it all started. They think because they
have a lot of sulfates in their beer, that's why their dark beers
come out well and their light beers don't, when it's probably
because they are fermenting at too high a temp or they have
long lags because of using dry yeast, and the dark malts cover
up the flavor defects.

Bleach is perfectly effective without acid. It may be marginally
quicker acting with acid, but the difference wouldn't be noticed
by a human. On the other hand, the death of the brewer due
to chlorine gas formed would certainly effect the number of
batches he gets to finish.
Jim
I'm not going to speak for everyone nor pretend to be even close to an expert on this subject, but I know with my water, the higher SRM beers (dark amber ales and stouts) much better tasting than lower SRM beers (pale ales and light lagers). I've used both dry and liquid yeast, pitched with proper pitching rates, experienced very little lag time, and control temps with a fermentation chamber. Even with all those variables accounted for, there was a certain "crispness" missing from the lighter beers but present in beers with darker grists. I've switched to using a portion and up to 75% RO water and the beers have turned out much cleaner. The last batch I brewed was a light lager MO, vienna, c-10 and with 75% RO water, the pH of the first runnings, even diluting the tap water 75%, was 5.7. The darker malts would have dropped the pH so I'm able to use more tap water in those beers.

I know this is not empirical data, but for me, it's worth the $3 and not have to use 5.2 buffer or a crap-tun of H3PO4 to try to get the pH in the proper range. YMMV
 
Doesn't the amount of Calcium affect the Alkalinity (by CaCO3)? A more Alkaline water will need the more acidic darker malts to lower the pH.

If the water in the mash isn't acidic enough, you can leach tannins
out of the grain husk, but the ions themselves don't cause weird flavors.
Generally, the last thing to worry about when brewing is the water
chemistry, and normally the only time there is a problem is when you
sparge with very hot distilled water. If you mash with distilled, as long as you
let it sit in the mash at a lower temp to acidify first, it's not a problem
either.
Jim:mug:

BYO said:
The presence of calcium sulfate (CaSO4) or calcium carbonate (CaCO3) can give beer a slightly astringent or bitter flavor. Calcium (Ca+2) and magnesium (Mg+2) in large amounts will produce a metallic flavor. Too much sodium (Na+) can start to give beer a salty flavor. Chloride (Cl-) alone or combined with sodium gives a more full-
bodied flavor.

These ions also affect the pH of your water. A high pH in the mash can cause poor extraction rates, darken the wort, and leach more tannins into your mash.

BYO said:
Hardness, either temporary or permanent, is not intrinsically good or bad. For pale ales, permanent hardness is good. For dark beers, temporary hardness is better. For Pilsen-style beers, neither is good.

http://***********/stories/recipes/article/indices/56-water/1510-the-elements-of-brewing-water

Also, lag time on Dry Yeast? I had a Imperial Stout have MAJOR blowoff in under 12 hrs.
 
You've got two trains of thoughts going here, so I'll respond one at a time.

Your theory that: "they have a lot of sulfates in their beer, that's why their dark beers come out well and their light beers don't, when it's probably because they are fermenting at too high a temp or they have long lags because of using dry yeast, and the dark malts cover up the flavor defects" is ridiculous.

No it's not, they are major reasons for poor beer quality. Long lag times
give bacteria a foothold, and many double their population in 10-20 minutes
verses 1-2 hours for yeast. High fermentation temperatures produce
more unwanted metabolic byproducts, I thought everyone knew that
(it's true for all chemical reactions, that's why synthetic chemists use
mild (low temp) conditions whenever possible). Good thing this thread was moved out of "Brew Science" I guess.

Water chemistry is HUGE and blaming good dark beers on not being able to taste bad brewing practices (long lag time with dry yeast?!?)over the flavor of dark malt is just silly. I think that you're just throwing ideas out there, but there are definitely some water chemistry issues involved that are better explanations of off-flavors than dry yeast and a long lag time.

Water chemistry is important for duplicating a style exactly. But ions
in your beer aren't going to make your beer taste BAD unless there is some
ungodly large amount of something in there, so it seems to me that if
someone's beer tastes BAD, it's probably not the ions in the water.

Secondly- chlorine gas from vinegar and bleach? Please provide your references. Sure, there would be risk involved especially in large quantities, but not like a cup of ammonia in a cup of bleach. We were talking about very small quantities, just enough to lower the pH slightly to make better sanitizing. (Note- I do NOT do this. I wouldn't. I use star-san or Iodophor for sanitizing anyway).

I think you need to provide references for your statement that
vinegar and bleach won't make chlorine gas. Bleach is somewhat more
effective at ph's of 6-5, but below 4 chlorine gas is produced, and the
pH of vinegar is about 2.5. This information is readily available on the
intertubes, try searching "ph of vinegar" at .edu sites, and "sodium
hypochlorite" and "pH".
Jim
 
I'm not here to argue- as there is no point. Keep in mind that I never said that vinegar and bleach don't produce chlorine gas- they certainly do! But, in the directions of the sanitizing with vinegar and bleach, it's instructed to not mix them together directly, and the amount is calculated to lower pH without producing a large amount of toxic gas. Again, I don't advocate this practice, I'm just pointing out that blanket statements are rarely totally correct.

About the water chemistry, I will have to agree to disagree with you. Water is a HUGE part of a beer. I have made some beers that were harsh and astringent (notably a kolsch) when the water chemistry was not appropriately adjusted for a lighter colored beer.

Certainly high fermentation temperatures produce bad beer, as does bacterial contamination. But to confuse higher fermentation flaws (fusels, esters) with pH and water chemistry issues is laughable and doesn't deserve a response.
 
No it's not, they are major reasons for poor beer quality. Long lag times
give bacteria a foothold, and many double their population in 10-20 minutes
verses 1-2 hours for yeast. High fermentation temperatures produce
more unwanted metabolic byproducts, I thought everyone knew that
(it's true for all chemical reactions, that's why synthetic chemists use
mild (low temp) conditions whenever possible). Good thing this thread was moved out of "Brew Science" I guess.

All the reasons you listed are valid for off flavors. It's also true that the single largest ingredient in beer is water. The composition of the water will have a definite impact on the beer. To imply that water, and specific ions in a brewery's water, is a myth is absurd.



Water chemistry is important for duplicating a style exactly. But ions
in your beer aren't going to make your beer taste BAD unless there is some
ungodly large amount of something in there, so it seems to me that if
someone's beer tastes BAD, it's probably not the ions in the water.

I think you're putting the cart before the horse. The reason, according to the books I've read, different styles of beers evolved in different regions is because of the make up of the water in the specific region. Thus the pils. ESB, stout...... It was the IONs in the water that lended specific characteristics to the water and those characteristics translated to different characteristics in the region's beer.

I'm sure you make good beer, but to imply that off-flavors are caused by improper brewing techniques, while at the same time ignoring the composition of the largest ingredient in beer, is naive.
 
Your assumption that poor brewing practice is to blame for off flavors in certain styles of beer but not others is as preposterous as assuming that hard water is the sole culprit.

Point moot.
 
This thread obviously came from this one https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/ro-light-colored-beers-159031/

I agree that the term "hard" was incorrectly substituted for "alkaline". The thread was discussing water chemistry as a potential reason for dark beers tasting a lot better than light beers from the same water source and brew process. I think many here would agree that it's a perfectly reasonable thing to suspect as an issue.

I later said "In fairness though, only knowing "very hard" and the alkalinity isn't enough to say for sure that there will be a mash pH problem. You really have to know total alkalinity, calcium and magnesium to figure out your residual alkalinity."

If you're suggesting that the ion concentrations of your brewing water has no effect on your ability to produce a decent stout and pilsner from a mash pH perspective, you should definitely do some more reading.
 
I think jdc2 is trying to show his brain power by mocking others with a stupid argument but ends up just looking like he is stroking his own ego by word playing and having no people skills.

Seriously dude - why did you start this thread? You obviously know the answer to your own question. What are you trying to accomplish?
 
No it's not, they are major reasons for poor beer quality. Long lag times
give bacteria a foothold, and many double their population in 10-20 minutes
verses 1-2 hours for yeast.

Wait... bacteria in a lab under ideal conditions can double every 20 minutes or so. Not 10 minutes. And ideal conditions in a lab != wort.
 
Aw. It was entertaining for a bit.

There is a LOT of info that explain exactly why alkaline water works better with darker (more acidic) malts. It's a concept that is not hard to grasp. Water chemistry in general might be more of a challenge, but it really comes down to "More acidic (darker) grain is buffered by more alkaline water".

The flaws created by a less than optimal residual alkalinity ratio are much different than the flaws created by high fermentation temps, or by lagging yeast, or by pretty much any other flaw other than sparging too hot or too long.

But then again, some people might actually enjoy the astringency and harshness that can come from water flaws. Or they might be subtle enough in may cases to not create a bad tasting beer. Keep in mind that most people do not have a problem making pales and bitters. Only those with water at either end of the spectrum, or those making the veyr light, or very dark beers, will have a strong flaw in the finished product.

A few podcasts state that unless you are one of those people with extreme water, or making a very light or very dark beer, you should be ok. Or if you really want to try and get that 1st place award in a competition, you might have better luck by figuring out the water chemistry (as long as the rest of your process is sound).
 
Can I have my 10 minutes back?

No, you can't. And please don't kill yourself mixing vinegar with water.

Some people apparently get their "information" from infomercials or
company shills trying to convince you to buy their product ("Well,
you can use bleach but you know, you gotta mix it with vinegar
and that could be dangerous, so, you know, you should buy our
stuff") and I think someone should have the sense to point it out
for obvious reasons. I was stupefied and annoyed that such info
is in one of the faq's on this newsgroup.

As far as I should do some more reading, every advice I've seen
in books says that proper pitching of active yeast and fermentation
at correct temperatures has far more effect on beer flavor than
anything else. As I said, you might not be able to duplicate a style
exactly if the water chemistry isn't correct, but it's not going to
give you bad or foul flavors.
Jim
 
#1- Wrong. Please listen carefully to Charlie Tally's talk on sanitation, star-san, and bleach. It's worthwhile, and correct. He doesn't talk of old wive's tales or of "beliefs", he speaks of chemical reactions. http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr03-29-07.mp3
Don't mix vinegar and bleach directly! But according to the directions in this podcast, it's perfectly safe.

#2- And wrong. Water chemistry is a HUGE part of the flavor of beer. Huge. Water with a very high residual alkalinity will always make a lighter colored beer have off flavors. Always. No matter if there was a 2 hour lag time or 30 hour lag time.

You're entitled to your opinions, of course. But sweeping generalizations that are in truth only partially correct will be challenged.
 
#1- Wrong. Please listen carefully to Charlie Tally's talk on sanitation, star-san, and bleach. It's worthwhile, and correct. He doesn't talk of old wive's tales or of "beliefs", he speaks of chemical reactions. http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr03-29-07.mp3
Don't mix vinegar and bleach directly! But according to the directions in this podcast, it's perfectly safe.

I'm not going to listen to some guy who works for a company trying
to sell his product, I'm going to pay attention to my own knowledge
of chemistry (in which I have two degrees). Using vinegar with
bleach is idiotic.

#2- And wrong. Water chemistry is a HUGE part of the flavor of beer. Huge. Water with a very high residual alkalinity will always make a lighter colored beer have off flavors. Always. No matter if there was a 2 hour lag time or 30 hour lag time.

You're entitled to your opinions, of course. But sweeping generalizations that are in truth only partially correct will be challenged.

I never said it wasn't a factor in beer flavor. I said you are not going
to get bad flavors from ions like sulphate, Ca, Mg, Na, Cl, and you
are not. Poster in the RO thread and another thread last year seemed
to think that sulphates and permanent hardness were making their
beer taste bad, and it doesn't. It may make a beer you want to
taste like Harpoon Ale taste like Samuel Smith's Pale Ale, but it won't
be bad. And a 30 hour lag time will certainly give bacteria and wild
yeast a foothold in your beer and spoil a lighter beer, while dark
malts will mask a lot of off flavors. And carbonate (temporary hardness)
won't leave any flavor either because the mash is acidic and when
you boil it the carbonate becomes carbon dioxide and boils off.
(Source: Terry Foster "Porter"). Temporary hardness can affect
mash efficiency, but that's about it. You, and many others, are
just confused about what causes what.
Jim
 
I never said it wasn't a factor in beer flavor. I said you are not going to get bad flavors from ions like sulphate, Ca, Mg, Na, Cl, and you are not. Poster in the RO thread and another thread last year seemed to think that sulphates and permanent hardness were making their beer taste bad, and it doesn't.

But when the yeast metabolize these elements in the fermentation process, it can lead to "off" or "bad" flavors from the specific esters and phenolic compounds released during fermentation. Sulfates also affect how different elements of the beer are perceived on the pallet. "Bad" doesn't necessarily mean "infected".

Otherwise, it's good to challenge the myths. Just don't ignore existing data that doesn't support your opinion/hypothesis.

I think jdc2 is trying to show his brain power by mocking others with a stupid argument but ends up just looking like he is stroking his own ego by word playing and having no people skills.

Seriously dude - why did you start this thread? You obviously know the answer to your own question. What are you trying to accomplish?

I literally laughed out loud. Srsly?
 
But when the yeast metabolize these elements in the fermentation process, it can lead to "off" or "bad" flavors from the specific esters and phenolic compounds released during fermentation.

I'm sorry, but I have to challenge this too. It just doesn't make sense.
Beers are brewed all over the world with waters of differing permanent
hardness. Good beers are made with all of them. If you want to say that,
for example, high sulfate PLUS a fermentation at 80F gives a bad flavor
that wouldn't happen with just the 80F temp, I can believe that.

Sulfates also affect how different elements of the beer are perceived on the pallet. "Bad" doesn't necessarily mean "infected".

Yes, which is the point I was trying to make about Harpoon IPA
versus Samuel Smith Pale ale. I've experimented with distilled water,
adding Ca and Mg sulfates, or adding just NaCl, and there is a
definite difference, the difference being as I said like the difference
between Harpoon IPA and Samuel Smith's Pale Ale.
Jim:mug:
 
Beers are brewed all over the world with waters of differing permanent hardness. Good beers are made with all of them. If you want to say that, for example, high sulfate PLUS a fermentation at 80F gives a bad flavor that wouldn't happen with just the 80F temp, I can believe that.
Jim:mug:

Are you assuming that NONE of these beers are being made with water that has been altered by the brewer? This is rare these days, which is why water profiles are useless for trying to clone a beer from a region unless you know the profile of the brew water.
 
I'll post this again since you have ignored it.

BYO said:
The presence of calcium sulfate (CaSO4) or calcium carbonate (CaCO3) can give beer a slightly astringent or bitter flavor. Calcium (Ca+2) and magnesium (Mg+2) in large amounts will produce a metallic flavor. Too much sodium (Na+) can start to give beer a salty flavor. Chloride (Cl-) alone or combined with sodium gives a more full-
bodied flavor.

These ions also affect the pH of your water. A high pH in the mash can cause poor extraction rates, darken the wort, and leach more tannins into your mash.

BYO said:
Hardness, either temporary or permanent, is not intrinsically good or bad. For pale ales, permanent hardness is good. For dark beers, temporary hardness is better. For Pilsen-style beers, neither is good.



http://***********/stories/recipes/article/indices/56-water/1510-the-elements-of-brewing-water

I don't know about you, but astringent, salty, and metallic are not flavors I am looking for in my lighter beers. I would consider them bad, off, or weird flavors. I couldn't pinpoint what I was tasting, but my friend said it was almost metallic tasting, which rung a bell in my head thinking it was an issue with my water.
 
I'm sorry, but I have to challenge this too. It just doesn't make sense. Beers are brewed all over the world with waters of differing permanent hardness. Good beers are made with all of them. If you want to say that, for example, high sulfate PLUS a fermentation at 80F gives a bad flavor that wouldn't happen with just the 80F temp, I can believe that.

Why the insistence for the 80°F temp point? That's just a variable and if it effects the fermentation profile at 80°F it would effect at a different temp point.

Yes, good beer is brewed all over the world but there are reasons why traditional styles developed specific to regions and water composition had a large part to do with development of those styles.
 
Beers are brewed all over the world with waters of differing permanent hardness.

I think he just contradicted himself right there.

yeah, they are, which is why certain styles are more prominent in certain areas.
 
If you want to say that, for example, high sulfate PLUS a fermentation at 80F gives a bad flavor that wouldn't happen with just the 80F temp, I can believe that.

So, how do you explain away Monastic brewing results? IIRC, it's Achel or Rochefort that has extremely high sulfate (balanced by chloride additions) and we ALL know of the fermentation regime for those heavenly concoctions.

The ions make a HUGE difference if a balance is not achieved.
 
As to the bleach/vinegar debate, you guys are arguing the same point. Yes, mixed incorrectly, it can be dangerous. On the other hand, if mixed correctly, yes, it CAN be used as a slightly more effective santizing agent then bleach alone. However, nobody on this forum is recommending this as a good solution, especially with all the no-rinse sanitizers out there. Since it seems we all agree, can we drop this moot argument?

As to the original intent of this thread, which I am finding very interesting, considering I'm trying to learn more about brewing chemistry. Is there confusion surrounding the definitions of "bad" flavors? Does brewing darker beers with highly alkaline water produce the same flavors as if you were brewing lighter beers, and it's just that those flavors complement darker beers, but come off negatively in lighter beers?

Or is it that the flavors produced in light vs. dark beers are completely different, and the outcome in the lighter beer is a "bad" or "off" flavor?
 
As to the original intent of this thread, which I am finding very interesting, considering I'm trying to learn more about brewing chemistry. Is there confusion surrounding the definitions of "bad" flavors? Does brewing darker beers with highly alkaline water produce the same flavors as if you were brewing lighter beers, and it's just that those flavors complement darker beers, but come off negatively in lighter beers?

Or is it that the flavors produced in light vs. dark beers are completely different, and the outcome in the lighter beer is a "bad" or "off" flavor?

Water chemistry is fascinating, and there are lots of good sources for information. From How to Brew by John Palmer, along with his spreadsheets and nomograph, to Basic Brewing Radio podcasts, there is a wealth of information on it. I was just in my car, listening to an old Basic Brewing podcast from July 12, 2007 where John Palmer was talking about residual alkalinity and its effects on two beers- a pale ale and a stout. I recommend giving that a listen. Also, Kaiser (that's his HBT ID) has some interesting articles on water chemistry, as well as a spreadsheet that can help you learn about water chemistry in brewing. -th- (again, his HBT ID) has a very helpful spreadsheet on water chemistry, and Bobby_M has videos explaining how to use them to adjust for certain beers.

I have hard water with high residual alkalinity. That means I can make some kick ass stouts without any water modification. That's mostly because of the buffering capability of dark roasted grains. My pH is in a good range with darker malts. However, I make mostly APAs and IPAs, so I have to "dilute" my tap water with RO water and add salts back to it to get the right amount of calcium, sulfate, and chloride. Otherwise, my palest colored beers are a bit harsh and astringent. My kolsch particularly is harsh and astringent without adjusting my water. My mash pH is too high, in those cases.
 
Here I am thinking that I finally figured out how to make a good light beer by caring for residual alkalinity in my mash water profile but it turns out I was all wrong. Despite several successful batches following water treatment and RO dilution, I guess I'll go back to plain tap water and just hope that the chemistry will just work itself out.
 
Back
Top