Wyeast 2124 vs. Fermentis Saflager W-34/70

I trying to brew something similar to a lager, but I don't have lagering capabilities. I can only ferment at 65-68 degrees. I'd like to use an actual lager yeast, not a steam beer yeast and I was looking on the Wyeast website for a suitable strain. According to many, the 2124 strain (Bohemian Lager) can ferment in the upper 60's and still produce some lager-like characteristics without harmful side effects. Just out of curiosity, I checked to see if there was a dry yeast equivalent to this strain, and I've found a couple of sources that are saying that Fermentis Saflager W-34/70 is equivalent to the Wyeast 2124. Is this accurate information? Is it equivalent, or just a good substitute?

According to Fermentis, you don't want to use W-34/70 at ale temperatures because it will produce unwanted characteristics. But if it's the same as Wyeast 2124 (which can be used at ale temps with no problems), why can't it be used at ale temps?

You can use the "swamp cooler" method for fermenting lagers. Put your fermenter into a large, preferably insulated, tub filled with cold water. Drop in a couple frozen 2-liter bottles into the water bath. Swap out the soda bottles with frozen bottles from the freezer every 12 hours or so. I have been able to maintain ~50 deg F temperatures this way in a 75 F ambient environment.

I live in an apartment where space is a concern, and have successfully fermented lagers this way several times.

I don't want to mess with the swamp cooler technique, but thanks for the advice. I just want to know if my beer will end up tasting bad if I use W-34/70 at ale temperatures.

Well if Fermentis says it's no good at ale temps I'm not sure why you'd assume any different. If you have an aversion to swamp coolers, then can you lager at all? If not, why are you trying to make a lager? And why the aversion to the lager strains that actually work at ale temps? Seems like you want to make a style that you simply don't have the gear for.

If you just want something crisp and clean but that doesn't taste like a steam beer then I'd suggest Kolsch yeast, with a 3 week rotation of the carbed bottles in the fridge before you drink.

ghpeel said:

Well if Fermentis says it's no good at ale temps I'm not sure why you'd assume any different. If you have an aversion to swamp coolers, then can you lager at all? If not, why are you trying to make a lager? And why the aversion to the lager strains that actually work at ale temps? Seems like you want to make a style that you simply don't have the gear for.

If you just want something crisp and clean but that doesn't taste like a steam beer then I'd suggest Kolsch yeast, with a 3 week rotation of the carbed bottles in the fridge before you drink.

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As I said in the original post, it's supposed to be equivalent to Wyeast 2124, which is apparently decent at ale temperatures. If they're equivalent yeasts, why would one manufacturer say it's fine at ale temps and the other say it's not? Fermentis only gives a temperature range, but they don't specify what will happen if you ferment outside of that range. That's why I'm asking.

I don't have the gear to make a "real" lager, but I'd like to use what I have to get something close to a lager. I would prefer a dry yeast because it is cheaper and keeps longer. I could go ahead and just buy the Wyeast 2124, but if there is an equivalent dry yeast, I'll definitely buy that. I just wondered why Wyeast says it does fine at ale temps but Fermentis does not...

So if anyone has an actual answer to my question instead of alternative methods, I would really appreciate the input.

I used 34/70 at 65 degrees and produced essentially a steam beer, it was very reminiscent of the character I'd get from the Anchor strain.

NigeltheBold said:

As I said in the original post, it's supposed to be equivalent to Wyeast 2124, which is apparently decent at ale temperatures. If they're equivalent yeasts, why would one manufacturer say it's fine at ale temps and the other say it's not? Fermentis only gives a temperature range, but they don't specify what will happen if you ferment outside of that range. That's why I'm asking.

I don't have the gear to make a "real" lager, but I'd like to use what I have to get something close to a lager. I would prefer a dry yeast because it is cheaper and keeps longer. I could go ahead and just buy the Wyeast 2124, but if there is an equivalent dry yeast, I'll definitely buy that. I just wondered why Wyeast says it does fine at ale temps but Fermentis does not...

So if anyone has an actual answer to my question instead of alternative methods, I would really appreciate the input.

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Wyeast 2124 and Saflager W34/70 both originated from the same Weihenstephan strain. However, I suspect that over time there has been a slight mutation from the original strain in the dry Saflager product. The drying process itself may have a lot to do with how that yeast performs at warm temperatures compared to a liquid strain.

When you say you can only ferment at 65-68 degrees, is that ambient air temperature or temperature of the wort? I carried out an ale fermentation once at 68-70 ambient where the actual wort temperature rose to 82 F within the first 18 hours just from the heat generated by yeast metabolism.

Without a means of temperature control, I believe it will be difficult to create a beer with clean lager character at ambient temperatures. That's not to say that you can't make a good drinkable beer, though. I will say I've never fermented with a lager yeast this way, so I'm just speculating here.

Why not go ahead and make a batch with the W34/70 and see how it performs? I'm curious to know how it turns out.

65-68 degrees would be the ambient (room) temperature. My fermentations usually only increase the temperature of the wort by 1-2 degrees. I appreciate the information about the two yeast strains. I'm still debating whether I should use the liquid or dry. I would hate to make a 5g batch of beer that comes out tasting really bad. If anybody else has any input about the dry vs. liquid form, please let me know. Thanks!

I'm doing a 10 gallon batch from a third generation of 34/70 right now. The second generation tastes very smooth to me after 10 days ferment and 2 1/2 weeks in the fridge. I ferment in the basement and temps average in the 65 degree range.

I got at this thread via a Google search on Wyeast 2124 and W34/70 and read thru it.
I reckon many others will get here in a similar fashion, so, that's why I'm 'reviving' the thread as Fermentis itself has recently published a study to W34/70 (here) in which they found that W34/70 can ferment lagers perfectly fine and without any impact on taste and the same neutral characteristics as with cool fermentation if W34/70 is used at ale temperature (68F/20ºC) to ferment a lager. This actually means W34/70 can ferment a lager in 5 to 6 days.

This new insight from the manufacturer is relevant to this particular thread as it discusses that W34/70 can not be used at ale temps per Fermentis' usage instructions. And as information never leaves the internet, I figured it'd be good to add these new insghts for correctness and completeness. Posterity may need it some day.

And I found my confirmation that WY2124 is indeed the same strain as W34/70, which I was after..

NigeltheBold said:

I trying to brew something similar to a lager, but I don't have lagering capabilities. I can only ferment at 65-68 degrees. I'd like to use an actual lager yeast, not a steam beer yeast and I was looking on the Wyeast website for a suitable strain. According to many, the 2124 strain (Bohemian Lager) can ferment in the upper 60's and still produce some lager-like characteristics without harmful side effects. Just out of curiosity, I checked to see if there was a dry yeast equivalent to this strain, and I've found a couple of sources that are saying that Fermentis Saflager W-34/70 is equivalent to the Wyeast 2124. Is this accurate information? Is it equivalent, or just a good substitute?

According to Fermentis, you don't want to use W-34/70 at ale temperatures because it will produce unwanted characteristics. But if it's the same as Wyeast 2124 (which can be used at ale temps with no problems), why can't it be used at ale temps?

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Please realize active fermentation can and will add about 10F to the ambient room temp. Is adding 10F to the room temp exceeding the yeast range?

Please avoid my brother-in-laws claim he brewed a "lager" in his North Carolina garage during the late Spring (with wild temp swings throughout the time). His finished beer. Barf!

TheBrewingDutchman said:

And I found my confirmation that WY2124 is indeed the same strain as W34/70, which I was after..

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Not true, that's old wives tales from prior to 2019.

Based on genomic testing, Wyeast 2124 is most closely related to WLP029 Kolsch yeast, whereas W-34/70 is closest to Wyeast 2035 and WLP810.

Here is my table with more such equivalencies:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16XRUloO3WXqH9Ixsf5vx2DIKDmrEQJ36tLRBmmya7Jo/edit?usp=sharing
And sources for the above include, but are not limited to:

http://beer.suregork.com/?p=4112
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/709535v1.article-info

dmtaylor said:

Not true, that's old wives tales from prior to 2019.

Based on genomic testing, Wyeast 2124 is most closely related to WLP029 Kolsch yeast, whereas W-34/70 is closest to Wyeast 2035 and WLP810.

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This can't be correct. WLP810 = Wyeast 2112 = California Common

Tobor_8thMan said:

This can't be correct. WLP810 = Wyeast 2112 = California Common

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We're both right. WLP810 is approximately equivalent to 2112, AND W-34/70 is close to those. Not exactly equivalent, but closely related.

Wyeast 2035 and Wyeast 2112 both descend from the Christian Schmidt strain. Contrary to what a lot of homebrewers believe, 2112 is not a historical steam strain. Anchor used yeast obtained from other breweries before Fritz Maytag purchased the brewery. The strain we refer to as 2112 was acquired from Wallerstein Labs in the mid-seventies as part of Fritz's plan to improve quality. Wyeast 2035 is the August Schell strain. The culture used to be sold as Wyeast 2035 New Ulm Lager in the nineties. It is an open secret that the Schell strain descends from the Christian Schmidt strain. The Christian Schmidt strain was very popular with small and regional breweries on the East Coast and the Midwest. It was as popular with small American lager breweries in its day as Chico is with craft breweries today.

On a new note, we all know that Chico descends from Siebel BRY-96 (no, that is not a typo). Sierra Nevada has been open with that information. Many of us old-timers knew that BRY-96 was deposited by Narragansett. However, we always assumed was that it was the Ballantine ale culture because Falstaff moved production of Ballantine XXX to Narragansett after they shuttered the Newark, New Jersey brewing complex. The USDA ARS NRRL holds the Ballantine ale culture under the accession number Y-7408 (available from East Coast Yeast as ECY-10). Genetic sequencing of BRY-96, Wyeast 1056, and Y-7408 at the University of Washington has ruled Ballantine out as the source of BRY-96. The strains are too far apart genetically. Wyeast 1056 matches BRY-96, but they are not genetically identical. Now, the culture from which Lallemand BRY-97 is propagated is almost an identical match to Wyeast 1056. Tobias Fischborn, senior research scientist at Lallemand, let the cat out of the bag as to lineage of BRY-97 not long ago. He said that it was isolated from a culture obtained from a brewery that used BRY-96 as their seed culture. Lallemand chose to propagate this isolate instead of BRY-96 because it has superior brewing performance. Since we know that Wyeast 1056 is originally from Sierra Nevada's culture and BRY-97 is very close genetically, the brewery from which Siebel obtained the culture known as BRY-97 today has to be Sierra Nevada. It is the result of selective pressure placed on the culture at Sierra Nevada.

With that said, we now know that BRY-96 is a Narragansett strain. However, we do not know that it is the strain they historically used to ferment Narrangansett Banquet Ale or if it is James Hanley strain. Narragansett purchased the James Hanley Brewing Company in the 1957. James Hanley operated the largest ale brewery in Rhode Island. The man who could have given us the answer passed away in 2017. His name is Bill Anderson. He was Narragansett's brewmaster in the sixties. Siebel BRY-96 has a reception date of 4/1/1967.

EarlyAmateurZymurgist said:

Wyeast 2035 and Wyeast 2112 both descend from the Christian Schmidt strain. Contrary to what a lot of homebrewers believe, 2112 is not a historical steam strain. Anchor used yeast it obtained from other breweries before Fritz Maytag purchased the brewery. The strain we refer to as 2112 was acquired from Wallerstein Labs in the mid-seventies as part of Fritz's plan to improve quality. Wyeast 2035 is the August Schell strain. The culture used to be sold as Wyeast 2035 New Ulm Lager in the nineties. It is an open secret that the Schell strain descends from the Christian Schmidt strain. The Christian Schmidt strain was very popular with small and regional breweries on the East Coast and the Midwest. It was as popular with small American lager breweries in its day as Chico is with craft breweries today.

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Here's some more info I've gathered: Schell's use two lager strains. The "Deer Brand" uses a Carlesberg-type (WY2035 equivalent) that originally came from Schaefer, via Wallerstein, and was pitched continuously for 35 years. Grain belt uses a different yeast, a Tuborg-type that came from the Jacob Schmidt (MN) brewery.

I have both the original Christian Schmidt (PA) and the primary Schaefer, aka Wallerstein Lager in my yeast collection. I was told by a former Stroh's brewmaster that the Schaefer strain is essentially the same as TUM 34, (parent of 34/70). The Christian Schmidt is a much softer yeast that happily ferments into the 60's without much in the way of sulfur or esters.

bierhaus15 said:

Here's some more info I've gathered: Schell's use two lager strains. The "Deer Brand" uses a Carlesberg-type (WY2035 equivalent) that originally came from Schaefer, via Wallerstein, and was pitched continuously for 35 years. Grain belt uses a different yeast, a Tuborg-type that came from the Jacob Schmidt (MN) brewery.

I have both the original Christian Schmidt (PA) and the primary Schaefer, aka Wallerstein Lager in my yeast collection. I was told by a former Stroh's brewmaster that the Schaefer strain is essentially the same as TUM 34, (parent of 34/70). The Christian Schmidt is a much softer yeast that happily ferments into the 60's without much in the way of sulfur or esters.

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There are two TUM 34 isolates currently in use; namely W-34/70 and W-34/78 (a.k.a. TUM 34/70 and TUM 34/78). As you have ascertained, the first number is the brewery. In this case, Brewery #34 was the Frohberg Brewery in Grimma, Saxony. That is why W-34/70 is the type strain for the Frohberg family of yeast strains. Wyeast 2035 is not a Sazz strain. It is is a Frohberg strain that groups with 2112 and via a common ancestor with W-34/70 (the Christian Schmidt strain probably descends W-34/70). This grouping can be seen on the Suregork site. The main Saaz strain used in the United States was Carlsberg Unterhefe No. 1, which, as you probably already know, is the world's first pure culture. Carlsberg gave the strain away. Combined with the Carlsberg flask yeast propagator, Unterhefe No. 1 gave birth to brewing at the industrial level. It was used by several of the Midwest big boys, including Miller. I know that Carl R. Kreitler, brewmaster for National Brewing Company in Baltimore, MD, imported Unterhefe No. 1 in the thirties for use in producing National's beer. Underhefe No. 1 is significantly more cryotolerant than W-34/70 due to the fact that Saaz strains contain two sets of Saccharomyces eubayanus chromosomes and one set of Saccharomyces cerevisiae chromosomes whereas W-34/70 contains two sets of Saccharomyces eubayanus (S. eubayanus) chromosomes and two sets of Saccharomyces cerevisiae chromosomes where most the cryotolerance inherited from S. eubayanus has been deleted.