Landlord/Property Issues

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

mavandeh

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
133
Reaction score
2
Location
Chicago
My landlord is a smart guy. In fact, he's got a Ph.D. in Chemistry. However, he doesn't know a thing about beer brewing aside that it involves yeast fermenting sugars. We've discussed brewing before, and when he came home tonight he saw that I was fermenting a batch and sent me a stern message to stop. It's nowhere in the lease, but I want to respect his wishes. I'm sure that I could convince him though, so I have wrote a small article on what concerns homebrewing entails.

The reason I am posting here is to ask if any of you think I may be forgetting anything. I may not even send it to him, and just use it as talking points when I meet with him to formally discuss this issue.

When I asked him for a reason, all he could say was that the yeast may present a health (allergy) concern for the neighbor in the house, and the smell is kind of obnoxious. I've talked to the neighbor and he loves the idea of me brewing and is excited to try it. He is not allergic to yeast, as he loves beer and drinks plenty of it himself.

Link to my short article here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/121KmRimKaIJmis0VLllVAIyyuWyZveV-57U9fZDNkUE/edit

I left it open for comment to anyone with the link. I will later add formal citations instead of just links. If anyone has more resources for me, please post them here or on the comments to the article.

Thanks guys!
 
Ask the chemist if the yeast you use in your bread making machine poses a risk. It sounds like he has been educated beyond the limits of his own intellect.
 
Is it even possible to be allergic to yeast? I mean, it's floating around everywhere already. I don't think brewing is throwing more yeast out than say, your fruit bowl.
 
Your document is well detailed. I would think a chemist would know at least the basics of yeast, maybe not the specific strain that is used in making beer, but as you stated its no different than using bread yeast for baking. There has to be another reason or he is just unaware of what the process and hobby is all about. I would possibly add a section in your article about the laws, just to counter any possible concerns he may have about the law. Here is a link I found for your state specifically:
http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/pages/government-affairs/statutes/illinois/

I think you are being reasonable in offering that you go out and buy a refrigerator to contain the smell and potential mess if there happens to be one. If he is concerned of steam/water damage when boiling indoors, is there any way you can do that outside?
 
I like your article and appreciate how gracious you are being as I would not be. I wonder, however, if putting info about water damage and strong odors is really necessary. If I am a landlord that is concerned about yeast allergy then I'm probably not thinking about open flames and tons of water spilling. Why make him aware of dangers that he doesn't know about?
 
There is a way I could do it outside, however it would require me to purchase much more equipment than my wallet can handle right now even if I go for a single burner BIAB sort of setup. It would be a fun project though!

Also, I'm in Chicago and I'm planning on moving within the next 4-5 years. Space is really a luxury here. Also, I don't want to have to worry about moving a brew stand when I leave. It's just one more huge item to move.
 
Are you in a lease or month to month? If you have a lease and there is nothing about brewing in your lease than he can go pound sand. If you are on a month to month lease and not in and area that is "rent controlled" then you pretty much have to adapt to whatever he says.
 
Is it even possible to be allergic to yeast? I mean, it's floating around everywhere already. I don't think brewing is throwing more yeast out than say, your fruit bowl.

I don't want to mislead him at all. Hopefully by being honest he'll understand that I'm aware of how it concerns him and that I'm going out of my way to be careful. If I fail to bring this up and he finds out later, he'll only ask me to stop again anyway.

He did not flat out say, "no way, not at all", he did say that I should keep it outside the main building, limiting it to the garage. I cannot ferment beer in the garage on a 93 degree F day. This means he is flexible, and at least a little bit reasonable, but I think he fears what he does not know. Concessions on the parts of both parties have to be made, and I want to respect his wishes.

I feel like I'm at least a half-way decent teacher anyway. Heck, I teach a short class to college kids about reading Pap smears once a year. :)
 
Are you in a lease or month to month? If you have a lease and there is nothing about brewing in your lease than he can go pound sand. If you are on a month to month lease and not in and area that is "rent controlled" then you pretty much have to adapt to whatever he says.

There's no rent control in Chicago, and the lease is up in a month. He could potentially add it to the next lease that I'm about to sign.

I couldn't have picked a better time to start brewing again and him to find out.

I really like the guy and I'd hate to burn a bridge. He's an EXCELLENT land lord. Best I've ever had. Really don't want to be forced to move this coming month with a broken knee to boot.
 
Maybe the guy has some past experience that gave him the wrong impression about brewing. I don't think you need to mention the boiling times and steam output. It's no different than making soup.
How did he happen to see you fermenting beer, anyway?
 
Maybe the guy has some past experience that gave him the wrong impression about brewing. I don't think you need to mention the boiling times and steam output. It's no different than making soup.
How did he happen to see you fermenting beer, anyway?

Left it out in the basement (finished laundry room), where the temp is right for brewing without supercooling the main floor and paying a fortune in air-conditioning.
 
There's no rent control in Chicago, and the lease is up in a month. He could potentially add it to the next lease that I'm about to sign.

I couldn't have picked a better time to start brewing again and him to find out.

I really like the guy and I'd hate to burn a bridge. He's an EXCELLENT land lord. Best I've ever had. Really don't want to be forced to move this coming month with a broken knee to boot.

Yep, bad timing. If you have to use the garage then you can maybe use something like this assuming you have outlets in the garage to power it:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/new-fermentation-chamber-build-102846/

I was going to also suggest the "son of fermentation chamber" but it appears all the images are broken :mad:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/son-fermentation-chamber-13586/
It worked by basically building a foam box, with a small fan the cycles air over frozen water bottles.
 
He can't prevent you from making beer unless you agreed to not make beer in the lease*.

*This assumes you make beer safely and lawfully.
 
MisterTipsy said:
He can't prevent you from making beer unless you agreed to not make beer in the lease*.

*This assumes you make beer safely and lawfully.

Correct. The lease is up in a week though, which leaves room to change it. :(
 
knotquiteawake said:
Yep, bad timing. If you have to use the garage then you can maybe use something like this assuming you have outlets in the garage to power it:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/new-fermentation-chamber-build-102846/

I was going to also suggest the "son of fermentation chamber" but it appears all the images are broken :mad:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/son-fermentation-chamber-13586/
It worked by basically building a foam box, with a small fan the cycles air over frozen water bottles.

I remember seeing that a while ago. Good option, thanks for the reminder.
 
it was on my mind because I was thinking of doing the same thing. Summer is hitting hard here in Texas so even inside is going to be too warm to properly ferment.
 
It sounds like you have a good relationship with your landlord, or at least one where he might listen to you. Many people have some pretty crazy ideas about what happens when we make beer. You should check out some of the threads that discuss the crazy things people say like comparing brewing beer to meth labs. I'd be willing to bet that if you carefully explain to him what happens when you brew and how precise you are with your process, he will see reason and allow you to brew.

If not, since you're in Chicago, you could always join CHAOS brew club. They have a brewhouse with fermentation space on Grand Ave that members can use for a small fee (I think it's $5/ brew). I'm thinking of joining up myself.

If you're looking at fermentation chambers, as the above posts have suggested, I'd like to show you mine. It's slightly different from most of the designs I've seen because I needed to adapt it to small storage space for Chicago apartments.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/fermentation-chamber-my-easter-present-319701/
 
I feel for you man, I just moved away from Chicago and was brewing in my apartment. I am glad I don't do that any more. Much nicer to have space to breathe. His main issue might actually be the smell, some people just hate it. I love it, and thankfully so does my wife. I think it smells like baking bread almost. Perhaps he has moral issues with alcahol, and he just doesn't want to voice them? Or perhaps he might think its illegal (or almost illegal) and isn't comfortable with that in his house? Do you have your own apartment or do you rent a room in his house, those would play a part in this I would think.
 
Sounds like you are sharing a house with him. So he is the owner and he sets the rules. I assume a shared kitchen as well. Of course his yeast thing is wrong, and being nice to him is the best method.
 
I would add something about the status of legality of homebrewing in your city/state/country as well as the popularity of the hobby, local clubs, and number of members in the AHA. Something that makes it seem like a real hobby or culinary interest rather than just making cheap bathroom hootch or a meth lab. I'm in the process of opening a brewery and still get "bathtub" questions (jokes?) from friends and family- try to contextualize brewing so that he has some frame of reference other than whatever notion he got from his prohibition-era parents.
 
Do you have your own apartment or do you rent a room in his house, those would play a part in this I would think.

Sounds like you are sharing a house with him. So he is the owner and he sets the rules. I assume a shared kitchen as well. Of course his yeast thing is wrong, and being nice to him is the best method.
It's a two story walk-up with 3 units, garden, first, and second. I'm on the second, and all apartments including kitchens are separate.

Before you submit a paper to him try sitting down and just talking about it.
We had a "meeting" today. He called me and brought the neighbor into the room with him with me on speaker phone. He was basically just trying to tell me why it wouldn't work in the house. I told him that we need to sit down in person for me to get my info across, and he seems to think our talk was good enough. I'm just going to slip the essay under his door when it is complete along with a copy of the laws regarding homebrew in Illinois, and other materials for him to look over. He is, however, okay with the fermentation chamber being in the garage. I'll probably just convert a chest fridge.

I would add something about the status of legality of homebrewing in your city/state/country as well as the popularity of the hobby, local clubs, and number of members in the AHA. Something that makes it seem like a real hobby or culinary interest rather than just making cheap bathroom hootch or a meth lab. I'm in the process of opening a brewery and still get "bathtub" questions (jokes?) from friends and family- try to contextualize brewing so that he has some frame of reference other than whatever notion he got from his prohibition-era parents.
Will do this. Great idea for a friendly lead-in.
 
Well you are definetly handling it in the best way possible. My question is can a landlord legally tell you what you may/may not cook in your rented apartment? As someone else mentioned homebrewing is pretty much the equivalent of making soup. If a landlord is a vegetarian can he demand that all renters and guests are prohibited from cooking meat? Seems pretty ridiculous.
 
Honestly, f him. Brew anyway. He has NO legal right to tell you you cannot brew in your apartment. If he kicks you out, move and then sue him (for the cost of the move). If nothing else it will cost him time and money to go to court. Why live somewhere that is run by an azzhat where you cannot brew beer? He is not legally able to tell you you cannot do something that is legal. If he told you you couldn't have a gun in the apt it would be the same thing. Again, f him.
 
I have to agree with Slipgate, what is your landlord doing in your personal business? You pay your rent, you should be able to live your life, do what ever you want as long as it is legal, doesn't impinge on others rights, or endanger anyone. You sound like you are the ideal renter, because you care so much about the land lord's concerns. If you pay on time, don't annoy your neighbors, and are not creating a danger to the premises, or neighbors, it is none of his business. I would not sign a lease that said I could not prepare food, or beverages of your choice. If you give in on this, later he may not like the way you dress.
 
I must be lucky. My landlord loves my home brew. Didn't bother him at all when I was tapping into the natural gas line to fuel the burners I was installing in my welded up brew stand in front of the garage. He chuckled while I went to get him another beer.

Probably helps that I'm a contractor and he knows I'm not going to blow something up though.

Edit: As foe your situation. There are two ways of life, what's supposed to happen, and what actually happens. He may have no contractual or legal reason to tell you to stop, doesn't mean he can't find ANYTHING in his power to get rid of you. If he's a smart as you think he is, he won't mention home brew for grounds of eviction but any other reasons. And unless you live in San Francisco, where it is more likely you will get away with murder than eviction, you may just lose this battle in the long run.
 
Brewing is basically the same as making bread, if he wants to prevent you from doing something in the "common" areas of the apartment that is his right as landloard but unless your lease specifies no cooking/baking is allowed he can go to court and try to get a cease and desist and would fail as long as you arw a licensed home brewer. What happens within your apartment is none of his concern as long as you are not damaging his property in any way.
 
I really disagree with how you are trying to convince him...informing him of potential damages from your brewing isn't going to help. He will just use those as reasons not to let you brew.

Your document outlines brewing well, but i don't think he is even going to get past the first two paragraphs.

Call me a negative Nancy, but i see this failing. He doesn't want you brewing and you are telling him if he doesn't want you to, then you won't. He will just stick to his "no". Brew in your apartment and find a way to ferment inside. Further, wait till after you re-sign your lease till you bring all this up, this way he is less likely to include a no brew clause.

Either way, good luck. I do think you are approaching this in the most logical and adult manner. Unfortunately most people don't care and just want things their way. I hope you let us know how it goes and that you proved me, and others wrong.
 
Honestly, f him. Brew anyway. He has NO legal right to tell you you cannot brew in your apartment. If he kicks you out, move and then sue him (for the cost of the move). If nothing else it will cost him time and money to go to court. Why live somewhere that is run by an azzhat where you cannot brew beer? He is not legally able to tell you you cannot do something that is legal. If he told you you couldn't have a gun in the apt it would be the same thing. Again, f him.

I prefer it to living with a place run by a landlord that does not respond to my requests to maintenance, lets **** get out of hand before fixing it, and gives me ridiculous guff when things that I need to survive are broken. This happens all too often in Chicago. He is a great landlord, he just doesn't understand that brewing poses no risk to his property and needs to be educated.

Brewing is basically the same as making bread, if he wants to prevent you from doing something in the "common" areas of the apartment that is his right as landloard but unless your lease specifies no cooking/baking is allowed he can go to court and try to get a cease and desist and would fail as long as you arw a licensed home brewer. What happens within your apartment is none of his concern as long as you are not damaging his property in any way.

It's the same as making a large volume of bread and soup at the same time. :)

How does one go about becoming licensed to homebrew in the state of Illinois? I wasn't aware that I needed a license.

We've come to an agreement after talking. He is really mostly concerned about the smell of the fermenter in the common areas of the basement (the only place in the house where fermentation can properly occur), and has requested that I move it to the garage. I'm just going to buy that <$200 freezer on the homebrewfinds deal and convert it into a fermentation chamber. It'll be a cool gadget to play with anyway.

As far as I'm concerned with the cooking argument, scottab, you are correct. He cannot prevent me from cooking in my apartment, and that is exactly what I am doing. I will brew in the kitchen, cool and place it in the fermenter, pitch, shake, and carry it out to the garage to ferment. Easy solution, and everyone is happy. This is really less of a big deal to him than I thought he was making it out to be. I was prepared for a battle though.

Thanks for all of your help and input guys, I really appreciate it and love this community for it. You all really stepped up to the plate for a stranger with only one thing in common; a passion for beer.

:mug:
 
i have to say f him as well, i rented 2 apartments in Chicago for 5 years or so, my landlord was in MY apartment only when i called him to fix the sink, stove ect, i can not imagine someone would tell me what to do in my place and if someone would kick me out before lease out there is small claim court
 
i have to say f him as well, i rented 2 apartments in Chicago for 5 years or so, my landlord was in MY apartment only when i called him to fix the sink, stove ect, i can not imagine someone would tell me what to do in my place and if someone would kick me out before lease out there is small claim court

Lease is up in a week and I'm not getting kicked out.

He was upset that I had a fermenter in the basement common area. Also the laundry room. Not 5 feet from the back door to his unit. I can understand his concern and nothing he has said has sounded unreasonable to me.
 
OP, I wonder if he thinks brewing beer is similar to distilling process? At the hardware store many of the employees thin that brewing is similar too distilling and I am forever telling them that "no, not distilling, I am brewing beer."

Nevermind, looks as though you have the issue resolved...
 
Awesome, glad you guys got a compromise on the fermenting space. It did sound like he was being more upright about this than it turns out. Have fun building the ferm chamber!
 
OP, I wonder if he thinks brewing beer is similar to distilling process? At the hardware store many of the employees thin that brewing is similar too distilling and I am forever telling them that "no, not distilling, I am brewing beer."

Immersion chillers do kind of look like a distillation apparatus. In fact, you could probably hook it up to a pot top and use one to distill.
 
Rig a swamp cooler in your apt. Keep everything brewing related in your place so he can't say anything to you about it. As long as you use any common area you seem to be at his ignorant whim on what you can or can't do.
 
You were fermenting beer in the common areas? That's a no no.

You generally aren't allowed to store anything in the common areas. It's probably written in your lease.
 
mavandeh said:
How does one go about becoming licensed to homebrew in the state of Illinois? I wasn't aware that I needed a license.
:mug:

In nj we need to obtain a license from the state. Glad to hear you worked it out. The smell is def overwhelming if it is something you don't enjoy. I once had a landlord who would complain that the garlic we used in cooking while a good smell permeated through the house and then everything smelled of it, including her clothing. I think she was a vampire.
 
Back
Top