Tankless water heater for fly sparging?

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WoweeZowee

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I was just browsing around the internet for LP gas tankless water heaters, and I stumbled upon a fairly cheap model. Does anyone have experience with this kind of water heater? Could it be easily modified for lower flow-rate and higher temp? I would really like to have on-demand sparge water for my new propane fired stand.
 
No experience with it, but if it can be attached to a hose, then you can control the flow rate with a ball-valve.

One thing I wonder is if it is going to be able to get the temps you want. It might have built-in safety measures to prevent the water from getting too hot. Most hosehold water heaters don't heat hotter than 120*F or so, and I suspect this thing might be the same.

Getting it to put out 170*F water might not be possible.
 
The site says: Adjustable water temp from 80-150

Would be nice if it could hit 170 or so. I love the tankless instant hot water heater ideas, and am always looking out for them too..
 
The manufacturers specs say that it needs 1.3 gal/per minute to activate, so I don't know if a ball valve alone is enough to regulate flow. Its highest rated water temp is 150*F. It doesn't seem like too far of a stretch to ask for 165*F.

I suppose the delivery rate issue could be fixed by placing a grant and float switch after the output of the heater. Any ideas on modifying it for slightly higher temps?
 
Hmmm, I also see in the manual that there is a 20 minute safety shut off delay. It would be much more useful to find some technical drawings on this model - or just this type of tankless water heater.
 
I don't think this particular tankless hot water heater will do it for you. The Takagi Flash T-K3-SP-LP Whole House, Liquid Propane at about $850 will handle the job.

Takagi T-K3 Tankless Hot Water Heater will give you a max output of 6.9 GPM. A 50-degree water input and a 55-degree temperature rise will give you about 6 GPM. This is enough for two standard showers (2.5 gpm each). The Takagi T-K3 can also be used for heating applications up to 180 degrees.

You can get a 120* temperature rise at 2.5 gpm

http://www.takagi.com/download/product_specifications/T-K3.pdf
 
Likely the unit control board is not user adjustable to reach the Strike and sparge temperatures you want. The units built for hydronic heating seem to allow for temperatures up to 170 but that seems to be the limit. It does not look like this would be a simple controls tweak to get a strike and sparge water heating system for a brewing system from one of the instant water heaters. GreenMonti's flash boiler looks like the gas burning candidate for both purposes but it is not an off the shelf device unless you could talk him into building one.
 
I agree with Sawdustguy. I purchased Takagi's T-K3-SP-LP and was very satisfied with my purchase. The oneclickdirect.com website had it priced at $851 but I found a coupon code on some random coupon website for 5% off your whole purchase and it was free shipping. I think it was retailmenot.com or something like that. It would totally work for fly sparging.
 
I do know one brewery that uses a couple tankless heaters in series, but the controls are locked out.
 
My tankless unit maxes out at 130, liability concerns most likely.
 
Mine maxes out at 140*... I have a remote control inside the house that I can adjust the temp up to 140* (I leave it there).

I don't know all the safety devices that they have on it, but it seems to me if you could locate and isolate all (if there are more than one) the safeties and find a reliable work around you should be able to hit your temperatures.

The question I have is how difficult would it be and is it worth the effort?
 
My tankless model (Rheem) maxes out at 140* but you can by a replacement temp control unit to bring it up to 160* max for $40 dollars. (I keep meaning to get that ordered.) We've had showers going for 40+ minutes and it hasn't shut off on us.
 
Wouldn't it be cheaper to build a dual element RIMS?

Would this work? Did "The Pol" ever show any testing numbers with that rig he built. I might be interested in building a RIMS unit that could be used for on demand heating. I am interested in what 2 5500w elements would produce in a RIMS tube.

With my new system I could just disconnect one of the Boil kettles and plug the RIMS unit in while sparging. I could see this as a time saving tool.
 
My tankless model (Rheem) maxes out at 140* but you can by a replacement temp control unit to bring it up to 160* max for $40 dollars. (I keep meaning to get that ordered.) We've had showers going for 40+ minutes and it hasn't shut off on us.

I have the Rhinni (sp?) unit. I'm going to look for a controller to increase the temp.

But as for a time out? No! I had a pipe burst this winter and once the water stared flowing it kicked on and poured 140* water out of my soffet for the better part of 8 hours until my wife got home from work!!! I burned 60#'s of propane that day!!! But it never turned off the water heater for 8 hours, so I wouldn't think that should be a concern!
 
The capacity of a tankless heater that's significant is the temperature RISE: the amount it can raise the inlet water by the time it gets to the outlet, since the water just makes a pass through the heater, never sits in a tank. Ours is 95F, which is the best we've ever had (we've had 3 since 1977, one made in Britain one French, and this one's a Bosch Aquastar.....all propane. Since we're in the country, on well water that runs 55F year around, the math isn't difficult....but. The "but" is that these things are temperature limited. Given the performance of the heater, one would think it'd do 150F, but it's actually 140F. Why 140? Several reasons; first, that is the magic temperature at which hot water burns skin, second, the more you heat the less efficient things become, third, any and all household work can be done with water that hot, and these are designed as household heaters. You will not reach the magic sparge temp of 170F with any tankless heater I know of.
 
Why 140? Several reasons; first, that is the magic temperature at which hot water burns skin, second, the more you heat the less efficient things become, third, any and all household work can be done with water that hot, and these are designed as household heaters. You will not reach the magic sparge temp of 170F with any tankless heater I know of.

I have seen many commercial units that will go up to 180* but they are a 2k. Not really economical for the home brewer.


Well I guess you guys never read posts 7 and 14. Yes they do make them, and no they do not cost $2000.
 
The capacity of a tankless heater that's significant is the temperature RISE: the amount it can raise the inlet water by the time it gets to the outlet, since the water just makes a pass through the heater, never sits in a tank. Ours is 95F, which is the best we've ever had (we've had 3 since 1977, one made in Britain one French, and this one's a Bosch Aquastar.....all propane. Since we're in the country, on well water that runs 55F year around, the math isn't difficult....but. The "but" is that these things are temperature limited. Given the performance of the heater, one would think it'd do 150F, but it's actually 140F. Why 140? Several reasons; first, that is the magic temperature at which hot water burns skin, second, the more you heat the less efficient things become, third, any and all household work can be done with water that hot, and these are designed as household heaters. You will not reach the magic sparge temp of 170F with any tankless heater I know of.

My Noritz hits 180 with a flow rate of 2.4 GPM (the digital control panel gives GPM reading) without batting an eye. My ground water temp is 47. Thats a 133 degree rise almost instantly. Mind you, 2.4 gals per minute is no where near its max GPM flow when set at 120 degrees, but still, 2.4 GPM means I have all my mash/sparge water collected for a 6 gallon batch in minutes.
 
Ditto on the Noritz at my home. Just adding confirmation that it will hit 180 even in the dead of winter. Measured output of my 10 ft feeder hose with thermapen at 178+ into the HLT.
 
Interesting units....but overkill in my household application, and not usable for brewing for me, since I can't use the tap water for brewing anyhow.
 
I just got off the phone with a guy at ECCOtemp who manufacture a small unit for about $250 which runs on LP and he says that while it would void the warranty it would be quite easy to remove the high-temp cutoff from the L10 unit. He would even give me directions over the phone if I needed to "replace my high-temp cutoff" which should easily give me 180F water at 2gpm. I will post a new topic when the unit comes in and I have tested it.
 
I just got off the phone with a guy at ECCOtemp who manufacture a small unit for about $250 which runs on LP and he says that while it would void the warranty it would be quite easy to remove the high-temp cutoff from the L10 unit. He would even give me directions over the phone if I needed to "replace my high-temp cutoff" which should easily give me 180F water at 2gpm. I will post a new topic when the unit comes in and I have tested it.

I was just looking at that model. Did this ever work out for you?
 
I found that model for $200 shipped so I pulled the trigger on it. It's normally $280 so I couldn't resist.

http://www.buy.com/pr/product.aspx?sku=219061279

Here is the manufacturer's website.

http://www.eccotemp.com/eccotemp-l10-tankless-water-heater/

It looks like you need this extra part to get over 140, but it was only $10

http://www.eccotemp.com/l10-overtemp-sensor/

Hopefully it will come before the weekend and I can do some testing and report back. I don't expect to be able to sparge directly from it, but it should at least be able to give my HLT a big head start.
 
barryfine said:
I found that model for $200 shipped so I pulled the trigger on it. It's normally $280 so I couldn't resist.

http://www.buy.com/pr/product.aspx?sku=219061279

Here is the manufacturer's website.

http://www.eccotemp.com/eccotemp-l10-tankless-water-heater/

It looks like you need this extra part to get over 140, but it was only $10

http://www.eccotemp.com/l10-overtemp-sensor/

Hopefully it will come before the weekend and I can do some testing and report back. I don't expect to be able to sparge directly from it, but it should at least be able to give my HLT a big head start.

Why do you not expect to directly fly sparge? You think you won't hit 170? If you add a ball valve to the output you should be able to adjust the flow rate to the proper rate no?
 
mmurray said:
I have the Rhinni (sp?) unit. I'm going to look for a controller to increase the temp.

But as for a time out? No! I had a pipe burst this winter and once the water stared flowing it kicked on and poured 140* water out of my soffet for the better part of 8 hours until my wife got home from work!!! I burned 60#'s of propane that day!!! But it never turned off the water heater for 8 hours, so I wouldn't think that should be a concern!

Most Rinnai tankless hot water heaters are capable of 180 degree water output and is not limited by the remote controller. There is an internal jumper on the heater that is either set for residential or commercial use. Mine is a commercial model but the Rinnia tech I purchased it from told me about the jumper and while I had it apart I located it. Mine will kick out 180 all day. The controller is fairly accurate but I temper water in the HLT as needed. Strike on demand, Sparge on demand, and cleaning water on demand. Take an easy 1-2 hours of my brew day and the single best investment I've made on brewing gear. Keep an eye on Craigslist I found mine new in box for 1/3 of the original price with two controllers.
 
rico567 said:
The capacity of a tankless heater that's significant is the temperature RISE: the amount it can raise the inlet water by the time it gets to the outlet, since the water just makes a pass through the heater, never sits in a tank. Ours is 95F, which is the best we've ever had (we've had 3 since 1977, one made in Britain one French, and this one's a Bosch Aquastar.....all propane. Since we're in the country, on well water that runs 55F year around, the math isn't difficult....but. The "but" is that these things are temperature limited. Given the performance of the heater, one would think it'd do 150F, but it's actually 140F. Why 140? Several reasons; first, that is the magic temperature at which hot water burns skin, second, the more you heat the less efficient things become, third, any and all household work can be done with water that hot, and these are designed as household heaters. You will not reach the magic sparge temp of 170F with any tankless heater I know of.

Your very wrong...with all due respect. Mine does it right out the box.
 
Why do you not expect to directly fly sparge? You think you won't hit 170? If you add a ball valve to the output you should be able to adjust the flow rate to the proper rate no?

I'm worried that even with the over temp sensor it might cut off at 165. I'm also concerned that the flow might be too slow at that temp. I'm certainly hoping I can sparge directly from it, but I don't want to get my hopes up. I'll test it this weekend and report back my results.

edit: I just got the overtemp sensor and it's set to 85C, so it won't cut of until 185F!
 
I have considered a tankless heater but I like to acidify my sparge water when doing pale beers, a tankless heater makes it almost impossible to make any adjustments to your water.
 
I saw another thread about using a tankless to speed up the strike water heat time and could obviously be used for sparging too minus the 20 minute safety thing which wouldn't be too bad as long as it could be turned on again within a minute or so.

My only concern is that I adjust my water so I don't want it coming straight from the hose but I don't see why you couldn't build a reserve tank elevated above the tankless to give it a little pressure just not sure if it would be enough.
 
I have considered a tankless heater but I like to acidify my sparge water when doing pale beers, a tankless heater makes it almost impossible to make any adjustments to your water.

I am wondering if there is a way around this, see reply above the only restriction is I think the heater would need more pressure on the inlet
 
I have considered a tankless heater but I like to acidify my sparge water when doing pale beers, a tankless heater makes it almost impossible to make any adjustments to your water.

You could just fill your HLT with the hot water, acidify and then sparge. You would still save a ton of time waiting for your HLT to warm up.
 
You could just fill your HLT with the hot water, acidify and then sparge. You would still save a ton of time waiting for your HLT to warm up.

I ended up automating my HLT so it starts heating 2hrs before I wake up. It was much cheaper then going tankless and allows for water adjustments while the water is cool.
 

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