Consistent off flavor

Williams 728
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WBishop

WBishop

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I've got my 4th batch of brew in primary.

My first batch a Trappist Ale has been in bottle 2 weeks. 4/4/2
My second batch an American Wheat Ale has been in bottle 3 weeks 3/0/3.
Third batch in bottle 1 week untasted.

Both batches I have tasted have a similar off flavor. Up front I assume both brews are still too green and need more time to sit.

Things that have me wondering...
Long primary and secondary on the first batch and 2 weeks in bottle, lots of people have brews ready long before that so what the deal with mine?

Second batch was a low grav wheat. OG 1.040, plenty of primary time for yeasty clean ups, what should be plenty of time in bottle and still a funky flavor in there.

2 beers, very different styles, similar off flavor. The only thing that comes to mind, is the possiblility of too much yeast still in suspension. I would think a couple weeks at room temp post carbonation would be enough time to settle out but then mebbe not. The taste testers I've done have only been in the fridge for 24 hours or so. Could that be it? Not enough time at low temp to cold crash the suspended matter out of the beer?

How long of a chill is needed to really clear a beer? I'm traveling all next week and was thinking I'd load up the fridge with a bunch of each batch that's in bottles and really cold crash/condition them and see if they loose that taste when I get back. The possible down side, er...what if they just need more time at room temp to clean up that taste.

I'm open to suggestions. Could the taste be suspended yeast? Could they need more time to condition at 70? Anyone have experience with off flavors that cleared up after a week or so in the fridge or should I just let them sit in the corner during the week I'm gone?
 
Couple of things to help us help you.
Describing the actual off flavor your experiencing would help us help you in troubleshooting. There are lots of off flavors in the brewing world caused by very different things.

Also, when you mention your time tables you only say things like "enough time", "long primary", ect. Give us actual time periods so we can better understand what's happening.

One other thing, what are your fermentation temperatures?
 
Are you steeping specialty grains? If you exceed 170 degrees you can end up with alot of tannins. I learned this the hard way with a beer I brewed that once took 8 months or so to mellow enough to even be drinkable and even then it was pretty awful, haha. Anyway, it was a great opportunity to learn about astringent flavors.

You may also want to consider the yeast strains you used and the temperature of your fermentation. Fermenting too high in temperature can produce phenolics some of which are more prominent depending on the yeast you use.
 
I had a consistant off flavor in my first 5 extract batches. I started controlling fermentation temps and fermenting around 64 and the flavors were gone.

This was also the time I started using yeast starters so that may have contributed as well.

Good news is I always store a few bottles of beer long time, and the off flavor does age out...even when stored in the fridge for a long time!
 
The flavor, I do my best, I didn't really try because my palatte sucks. good/bad, like/dislike is about as far as it goes.

The aroma from the glass is good. My nose says mmmm....beer when I smell the poured glass. Take a sip and the initial flavor is good but then as I swallow there is a odd sour/bitterness that hits on the way down and lingers as an after taste. Not a lambic type sour tartness and not an IPA hop bomb bitterness. Something funky in between that isn't pleasant. Almost like not washing asprin tablets down fast enough, but not quite. There is a bit of astringency to it that hangs with the after taste.

Exact times are listed here at the end, I was unclear weeks in primary/secondary/bottle
My first batch a Trappist Ale has been in bottle 2 weeks. 4/4/2
My second batch an American Wheat Ale has been in bottle 3 weeks 3/0/3.

The tanins thing is possible maybe. The trappist had steeping grains but I was pretty anal about the temp and watched it like a hawk. Pulled it from the burner as soon as it hit the recommended 160 and didn't move it back until it dropped to 150, never got back up to 160 before the steep time was over. The wheat was straight LME no grains.

Ferment temps were good. The stick on temp strip on the fermenter stayed at 64 - 66 depending on how active the fermentation was. Concrete floor in a very cool basement.

One thing that suggested could be pitch rate and possibly pitch temp. Both were pitched at about 80 degrees. After reading a lot more I think I probably should have cooled the wort down to about 65 to match the ferment temp before pitching.

No starter for either brew. The Trappist I should have, OG about 1.065. Wyeast trappist high gravity activator pack. Popped it about 48 hours before I pitched it looked ready to blow when I opened the pouch. The Wheat I didn't think I'd need a starter, mistake perhaps, OG 1.040 Safale S-05 rehydrated in 8 oz. of 80 degree water with about 2 Tbls sugar mixed in to get things rolling. Nice and frothy at pitch time.

Does any of that give any ideas?
 
did you sanitize your bottles?

also, what were the recipes?
DME or LME?
LME - if it's from the same place, it might be going stale?
 
I've gotten a flavor similar to that you describe before. Always when I cheat and crack a bottle early or fail to chill a bottle long enough before cracking. If it's a similar taste in different beers, and all the beers in question might not be fully bottle and/or fridge conditioned, it could be a green beer taste. Try some again in a week and make sure you chill them for a few days before drinking.
 
NordeastBrewer77 said:
I've gotten a flavor similar to that you describe before. Always when I cheat and crack a bottle early or fail to chill a bottle long enough before cracking. If it's a similar taste in different beers, and all the beers in question might not be fully bottle and/or fridge conditioned, it could be a green beer taste. Try some again in a week and make sure you chill them for a few days before drinking.
Click to expand...

+1

It really just sounds like green beer that needs more conditioning time!
 
There are two things I can think of. One is yeast health. That means the 80 degree pitching temp, and probably not making a starter for the liquid yeast, could be an issue.

The other issue I can think of is water. Can you tell us what kind of water you're using? Two of the "same" flavors with different yeast strains (particularly S05 which is a clean yeast strain) makes me consider that the water is the similar ingredient.
 
Bottles sanitized yes. Cleaned and stored in boxes once emptied and labels removed. Soaked in One Step sanitizer for at least 5 minutes and set to dry on the dishwasher rack that was throughly sprayed down with One Step.

Both were LME, but different companies.
Trappist was Midwest - Noble Trapist Ale
Wheat was Northern Brewer - American Wheat Ale

The length of time to chill brews before tasting them has been a bit fuzzy to me. I'm thinking 24 - 48 hours is all the longer they have been in the fridge before tasting. I'm thinking I need to stuff a few of each batch in the fridge before I leave on my trip so they have a week of chill time before I have the chance to try them again.
 
Yooper said:
There are two things I can think of. One is yeast health. That means the 80 degree pitching temp, and probably not making a starter for the liquid yeast, could be an issue.

The other issue I can think of is water. Can you tell us what kind of water you're using? Two of the "same" flavors with different yeast strains (particularly S05 which is a clean yeast strain) makes me consider that the water is the similar ingredient.
Click to expand...

Yep. Same water both times. Our well water tastes like A$$. High sulfer and iron content. We get water delivered monthly for drinking purposes. That's what I used. Hinckley Springs drinking water delivered in 5 gal carboys. It tastes good to drink, I suppose there could be something odd in the mineral profile of the spring water.
 
Germelli1 said:
+1

It really just sounds like green beer that needs more conditioning time!
Click to expand...

Really? He said that the Trappist spent two months in the fermenter. How can it possibly be "green"?

As for the OP. I've never really encountered it, but could this be the dreaded "extract twang?" Did you use the same brand of extract in both batches? If your water checks out, I'd consider switching extract brands.

Edit: You bought the LME from different suppliers, but they may have been produced by the same company. I'd try making one using DME and see if it makes a difference.
 
WBishop said:
Yep. Same water both times. Our well water tastes like A$$. High sulfer and iron content. We get water delivered monthly for drinking purposes. That's what I used. Hinckley Springs drinking water delivered in 5 gal carboys. It tastes good to drink, I suppose there could be something odd in the mineral profile of the spring water.
Click to expand...

No, that seems fine to me.

I'd try a couple of things. One is definitely pitching no higher than fermentation temperatures! You may want to try using only dry yeast (so you don't need a starter) until this problem is fixed.

How about trying adding the majority of the extract at the end of the boil? Maybe you're tasting some carmelized extract?
 
gr8shandini said:
Really? He said that the Trappist spent two months in the fermenter. How can it possibly be "green"?

As for the OP. I've never really encountered it, but could this be the dreaded "extract twang?" Did you use the same brand of extract in both batches? If your water checks out, I'd consider switching extract brands.
Click to expand...

It is also a borderline big beer. They take a while to get up to par...have you forgotten that higher ABV means longer conditioning time?
 
Just a thought, if you are pitching at 80 could you be transferring the beer above 80 degrees? I'm thinking oxidation which is what occured to my first two batches that I transferred "hot". I believe Palmer recommends cooling the wort to below 80 degrees before transferring, please correct me if I'm mistaken
 
Yooper said:
No, that seems fine to me.

I'd try a couple of things. One is definitely pitching no higher than fermentation temperatures! You may want to try using only dry yeast (so you don't need a starter) until this problem is fixed.

How about trying adding the majority of the extract at the end of the boil? Maybe you're tasting some carmelized extract?
Click to expand...

The tripel I have in the primary now was kicked with a 1L starter and a pitch temp about 65 degrees. I really need to get a digital thermometer. The canning thermo I stole from my wife isn't the easiest to read. Now just to wait a few months and see if the tripel has this flavor. :(

It could be carmelized malt, I tried really hard to add it slow and stir the crap out of the wort while I was pouring. I read about malt hitting the bottom and causing problems so tried to avoid that. Another thought here. Most recipies I'm looking at include steeping grains. Is it problematic to at the extract after the steep but before coming up to boil so there is less chance of extract scorching on the bottom of the pot? Or would the added time pre-boil change things enough to be noticiable. Depending on the amount of extract I do a 3.5 - 4 gal boil in a 5 gal pot.
 
NWEagle said:
Just a thought, if you are pitching at 80 could you be transferring the beer above 80 degrees? I'm thinking oxidation which is what occured to my first two batches that I transferred "hot". I believe Palmer recommends cooling the wort to below 80 degrees before transferring, please correct me if I'm mistaken
Click to expand...

Could be if that's a risk. I cooled it in the pot (ice bath) until it hit 80 then transfered to the fermenter using a long pour to aerate it. Pitched the yeast as soon as I cleaned up any splatters and drips.
 
Germelli1 said:
It is also a borderline big beer. They take a while to get up to par...have you forgotten that higher ABV means longer conditioning time?
Click to expand...

I understand that, but two months is plenty. I'm currently drinking a two week old IPA with an OG of 1.063 and it's just fine. I know there are different philosophies on aging, but the "wait and see" approach won't fix what seems to be a process / ingredient problem.

Re-reading all the posts, the only thing I can think of is either:

A) you really do have too much yeast in suspension as you originally speculated. Are your beers very cloudy or just a little hazy? A little haze is probably just cosmetic, but if you can't see through it, I'd say there's a lot of yeast in there.

B) Your sanitizer was improperly mixed or just plain sucks. I only used One Step on my very first batch and it left a soapy film on everything so I immediately switched to Star San and never looked back. It seems that most people either use Star San or iodophor. Perhaps switching sanitizers would help?

Or C) the "extract twang." A long shot, but switching to DME might help.
 
WBishop said:
Could be if that's a risk. I cooled it in the pot (ice bath) until it hit 80 then transfered to the fermenter using a long pour to aerate it. Pitched the yeast as soon as I cleaned up any splatters and drips.
Click to expand...
Doesn't sound like it if you cooled to 80 before transferring, perhaps someone a more experienced brewer can weigh in on that. Best of luck!
 
gr8shandini said:
A) you really do have too much yeast in suspension as you originally speculated. Are your beers very cloudy or just a little hazy? A little haze is probably just cosmetic, but if you can't see through it, I'd say there's a lot of yeast in there.

B) Your sanitizer was improperly mixed or just plain sucks. I only used One Step on my very first batch and it left a soapy film on everything so I immediately switched to Star San and never looked back. It seems that most people either use Star San or iodophor. Perhaps switching sanitizers would help?

Or C) the "extract twang." A long shot, but switching to DME might help.
Click to expand...

A: If I hold one up to the light and swish it I can see stuff swirling around. There isn't really a sediment layer in any of the bottles I've opened. Those were the things that got me thinking it's stuff in suspension that are giving me the taste.

B: Sanitiser maybe. Crap I hope not. I just bought a 4LB tub of the stuff. Probably should have just bought Star San when I thought about it.

C: Dunno. I've had LME beers from others that brew in my area from at least one of the suppliers I used and I didn't taste anything like what my brews have. Granted there could be a lot of differences in procedure, practice and process from what I do to what they do. But if that's the case it's one of the 3 P's that buggering my brews so it's fix able.

Thanks for the input everyone. Lots of stuff to think about before my next brew day. I've got a few changes in mind that I'll do and see if the next one comes out better, while I wait on the ones that are done to come around.
 
I had a bad bitter, sort of acrid funkiness that showed up in two beers that I used some "bad hops" in. the hops were not stored properly (unsealed) in the freezer, and were likely freezer burnt. It was the only two times I used 'questionable' hops, and the only two times I got that awful over-bitter, acrid aftertaste. Just an idea.
 
WBishop said:
A: If I hold one up to the light and swish it I can see stuff swirling around. There isn't really a sediment layer in any of the bottles I've opened. Those were the things that got me thinking it's stuff in suspension that are giving me the taste.

. . .QUOTE]

How long have you had the bottles in the fridge? After about a week in the cold, they should be fairly clear. Also, how's your pouring technique?
Click to expand...
 
gr8shandini said:
A: If I hold one up to the light and swish it I can see stuff swirling around. There isn't really a sediment layer in any of the bottles I've opened. Those were the things that got me thinking it's stuff in suspension that are giving me the taste.

. . .QUOTE]

How long have you had the bottles in the fridge? After about a week in the cold, they should be fairly clear. Also, how's your pouring technique?
Click to expand...

24 - 48 hours in the fridge before drinking, I've been keeping them at room temp to aid in the bottle conditioning keeping the yeast active. I'm gonna put a few bottles in tonight and leave them until I get back from vacation next weekend to see if they are better with more chill/cold crash time.

I pour slow, try to leave the dregs of the bottle in there trapped behind the shoulder of the bottle. Could be pour technique, I've only poured about a dozen homebrews in my life so I wouldn't testify that I'm doing it well. Hrmm...bottle pouring handicap. Sounds like another reason to campaign for a keezer and kegs.

I'm considering rinsing out/off the no rinse sanitizer I've been using to see if that gets rid of the flavor in future batches as well. I just wonder what kind of risk I'm running by rinsing with well water after sanitizing.
 
Kula said:
I had a bad bitter, sort of acrid funkiness that showed up in two beers that I used some "bad hops" in. the hops were not stored properly (unsealed) in the freezer, and were likely freezer burnt. It was the only two times I used 'questionable' hops, and the only two times I got that awful over-bitter, acrid aftertaste. Just an idea.
Click to expand...

pretty sure the hops were good. Good high volume reputable companies. Hops were in the mylar vaccum sealed bags. They only sat around in my house for a few days before being used. They should be fine. I thought about the hops since it was a sort of bitter ick thing, but the amounts used and the condition of the packaging wouldn't account for anything odd. The hop types are stuff I've had in other brews so no surpise flavors that might be throwing me for a loop.

So far the ones that make the most sense to me are carmelized malt, pitch temp and pitch rate, not enough fridge time to cold crash and the brews are just plain old green and need more time.

Two of those I can work with on the current brews and two are only correctable in future brews.
 
Update for anyone that was interested.

The wheat mellowed out and is ok after a week in the fridge. I wouldn't say it's GOOD. I'm not proud to say I made this, so won't be sharing with anyone. It's drinkable, that's about it.

Good news, I tried one of my 4th batch and it doesn't have the funk that I got out of the first two. I'm leaning towards pitch temps too high stressing the yeast on the others. The fourth batch I definitely cooled down to around 65 degrees before pitching.
 

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