All Grain Brewing Horrible Efficiency

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schiersteinbrewing

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I just switched to all grain brewing and I am having issues hitting the proper numbers. I do a batch sparge with a DIY converted 10gal igloo water cooler and a 10gal kettle.

1st batch was a Brown Porter
Grain Bill:

9 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM)
8.0 oz Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM)
8.0 oz Special B Malt (180.0 SRM)
4.0 oz Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM)
4.0 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM)

Mash
heated 3 gal water to 169 deg,
poured into mash tun
covered and let set
grain temp 72 deg
poured in grains and 1tbs 5star 5.2, when water was 162 deg, stirred well
temp now 150 and falling, added 1gal boiling water, raised temo to 153
let sit for 60 min, after 60 min mash temp was 150
slowly opened valve and filled a 2qt pitcher with worth and poured back in (X3)
total water in 4 gal total water out 3.1gal
poured in 3.5 gallons of 168 deg sparge water let sit 20 min
slowly opened valve and filled a 2qt pitcher with worth and poured back in (X3)
total sparge in 3.5 gal, total sparge out 3.5 gal
Total volume to kettle 6.6 gal
Total volume to fermenter 4.6 gal (before pitching yeast starter)

sg 1.042 @ 85 deg (estimated 1.046)
og 1.052 @ 75 deg (estimated 1.056, before yeast starter)

yeast starter was 800ml

conversion efficency of 72%, brewhouse of 62%

2nd batch is a Saison
Grain Bill
5 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel (3.0 SRM)
3 lbs 4.0 oz Red Wheat (4.1 SRM)
1 lbs Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM)

Mash
heated 3.5 gal to 171 deg
poured into mash tun, closed lid, let set till temp was 168
grain temp 72
poured in grain and 1tbs 5star 5.2, mixed well
temp 157
let sit 60 min
slowly opened valve and filled a 2qt pitcher with worth and poured back in (X3)
total water in 3.5 gal, total water out 1.5gal
poured in 3.5gal sparge water at 168 deg, let sit 20 min
slowly opened valve and filled a 2qt pitcher with worth and poured back in (X3)
total sparge volume in 3.5, total sparge volume out 3.5
total volume in kettle at this point 5gal
not quite to my estimated pre boil volume of 6.5gal
heated 1.5 gal water to 168, pourerd in mash tun mixed well let sit 20 min
slowly opened valve and filled a 2qt pitcher with worth and poured back in (X3)
total volume out 1.5 gal
total boil volume 6.5 gal
total volume to fermenter 4.5gal (before yeast starter)

sg 1.034 (estimated 1.044)
og 1.044 (estimated 1.050, before yeast starter)

calculations conv efficiency of 61%, brewhouse of 56%

My porter wasnt bad, just a little off from estimates and percentage wasnt bad. Now on the other hand the Saison was horrible and very difficult,, I tried to do it exactly like the Porter but it didnt work out to well.

Am I doing something wrong, or what can I change?
 
Something is a little off in your measurements.

Batch 1 - lost 0.9 gallons to 10.5 lbs of grain + dead space. You should be around .125 gallons/lb+dead space = 1.3 gallon + dead space

Batch 2 - lost 2 gallons ti 9 lb grain + dead space. Should be around 1.125 + dead space.

So, I suspect batch 2 had some doughballs that didn't get properly wet and Batch 2 had some lautering issues due to the wheat.

For the next batch, I'd recommend adding some rice hulls so it is easier to drain well. Then, stir the heck out of it at dough in and at least once during the mash. Check the gravity at 60 minutes. If it isn't what you want, leave it another 30 minutes. When you sparge, you need to really stir well (several minutes), but you don't need to let it sit after that.
 
Then, stir the heck out of it at dough in and at least once during the mash. Check the gravity at 60 minutes. If it isn't what you want, leave it another 30 minutes. When you sparge, you need to really stir well (several minutes), but you don't need to let it sit after that.

This was my first thought, along with the crush. I usually stir every 15 minutes or at least 2-3 times/mash. The first time I ever did AG I didn't stir after the initial dough-in and the beer was terrible and the efficiency was worse.
 
When I mash in, I have my wife pour as I stir. I also stir the mash every 15-20 min. For the sparge, I stir it after pouring in the water for 2-3 min and then let it sit.

For measuring in and out, I use an opaque white 5gal bucket from Lowe's with gallons in half increments on it as well as liter increments.

On batch 2, my first thought was dough balls. I checked for them before the sparge and didn't find any, nor did I find any when I cleaned the mash tun out. I too suspected the flaked wheat in this batch.

I 've ordered my next grain bill and ordered rice hulls also.
 
Looks like you did your homework. In terms of your Saison, I wouldn't consider that horrible. Looks like your pale malt for the saison was Belgian? Those malts are sometimes undermodified and require a stepped mash to get full efficiency. I usually get in the 80-85% conversion efficiency with American 2-row but the last Belgian IPA I used Belgian 2-row and got 68%. I kind of expected that, I was too lazy to do a stepped mash so I just added more grain. That could explain some of it with your Saison.

The brewhouse efficiency is usually most impacted by leaving wort somewhere. Whether it be in your mash-tun or boil-kettle. I had a pretty poor brewhouse efficiency until I got a Blichmann kettle with a hop filter and a drain tube that is about 1/4" from the bottom of the kettle. The keggle i had before that was homemade with a very poor drain design and no hop filter--needless to say I got pretty poor brewhouse efficiency with that kettle. Try to determine any equipment that is leaving liquid behind before it hits your fermenter.
 
My kettle is from AHS http://www.austinhomebrew.com/product_info.php?cPath=178_33_463&products_id=10460

After chilling with my wort chiller, I rack it to the fermenter.

I use 3 different thermometers, in conjunction with each other. A floating from AHS, a digital pen style, and a digital with wired probe. Also, my triple scale hydrometer is used for my gravity temp readings. For one temp reading I will use a digital and a non digital and compare the results.
 
In both cases you said "poured in 3.5 gallons of 168 deg sparge water let sit 20 min"
I suggest changing this a little bit to:

  • pour in 3.5 gallons 168 deg water
  • stir vigorously for at least 3 minutes

You then don't need to let it sit for 20 minutes (but it wouldn't hurt).


-a.
 
It reads like you've got accurate temp measuring devices. I'd look at the grain crush. Denny offers good mashing tips which have helped push my extraction into the upper 80s. Now I have to scale down grain bill recipes. :)
 
In both cases you said "poured in 3.5 gallons of 168 deg sparge water let sit 20 min"
I suggest changing this a little bit to:

  • pour in 3.5 gallons 168 deg water
  • stir vigorously for at least 3 minutes

You then don't need to let it sit for 20 minutes (but it wouldn't hurt).


-a.


Sorry, I should probably revise my chicken scratch brew notes prior to copy and pasting to the board, for a little clearer picture.
 
Your sparge water is too cold for batch sparge. Adding 168 degree water won't get your temp up enough. You want the whole grain bed up to 168. I typically heat to about 185 to get up to 168.

Also the 5.2 stabilizer might not be helping. Do you measure pH? Proper pH will affect efficiency.
 
Your sparge water is too cold for batch sparge. Adding 168 degree water won't get your temp up enough. You want the whole grain bed up to 168. I typically heat to about 185 to get up to 168.

Also the 5.2 stabilizer might not be helping. Do you measure pH? Proper pH will affect efficiency.

Changing sparge water temp from 168-185 wouldn't affect your efficiency...
 
"Changing sparge water temp from 168-185 wouldn't affect your efficiency..."

Not exactly true. It's just a couple percent change for the sparge portion, so it's a 1%ish change overall. Not a zero impact, but pretty small overall.
 
You should be adding the 5/2 and mixing before adding the grain. Adding it when the grain is already in makes proper mixing that much harder. Also make sure your thermometer is calibrated at the right temperature. I once had a temperature probe that was off by 10F. I ruined two batches before I noticed. Once I got a reliable probe, my efficiency rose by 10%. (Word of advice: Don't use taylor probes! They fall off calibration so fast)
 
Your sparge water is too cold for batch sparge. Adding 168 degree water won't get your temp up enough. You want the whole grain bed up to 168. I typically heat to about 185 to get up to 168.

Also the 5.2 stabilizer might not be helping. Do you measure pH? Proper pH will affect efficiency.

I have not been checking ph level, nor have I bought test strips.My water comes from a well in west texas and is very hard water (no filtration or softener).

I should have it tested and be adding other items to achieve a better water profile.

I did read a post where they add 1-2 gallons of higher temp (180deg-190deg) water and mix well before they do their first running. Also on the same post they had a link to what seems to be an very good page on no-sparge and batch sparge, and a well made calculator. http://home.roadrunner.com/~brewbeer/files/nbsparge.html
(Hope posting that link doesn't violate any rules)
 
"Changing sparge water temp from 168-185 wouldn't affect your efficiency..."

Not exactly true. It's just a couple percent change for the sparge portion, so it's a 1%ish change overall. Not a zero impact, but pretty small overall.

I believe (read) the solubility of the sugars from 168-185 are virtually the same. I just don't see how you would get any change besides raising the temps so you boil slightly faster or if you want to denature. Malfet (or Kai?) has a thread on his tests with cold sparge water around here somewhere..and he was using non heated water.
 
I have not been checking ph level, nor have I bought test strips.My water comes from a well in west texas and is very hard water (no filtration or softener).

I should have it tested and be adding other items to achieve a better water profile.

I did read a post where they add 1-2 gallons of higher temp (180deg-190deg) water and mix well before they do their first running. Also on the same post they had a link to what seems to be an very good page on no-sparge and batch sparge, and a well made calculator. http://home.roadrunner.com/~brewbeer/files/nbsparge.html
(Hope posting that link doesn't violate any rules)

Adding the higher water before you take your first running is called a mash-out. If it raises the grain bed high enough you denature the enzymes, setting the profile of the beer. A lot of people skip the step because they are draining right into the kettle and turning it on.. achieving the same thing.
 
Unless I read it wrong, you had to add unplanned water in both cases. First to raise your temp and second to achieve boil volume. This is where you lost your points. Also, you didn't specifically mention it, but do you stir in your sparge water? If not, I would start doing so. An aggressive stir and a 5 minute wait is my method.
 
"I believe (read) the solubility of the sugars from 168-185 are virtually the same"


http://sugartech.co.za/solubility/index.php

Yes, virtually. According to this calculator, it's 77 vs 79. So, a 2% difference in just the sparge portion will be somewhere around a 1% change overall. Not big, but not zero.
 
"I believe (read) the solubility of the sugars from 168-185 are virtually the same"


http://sugartech.co.za/solubility/index.php

Yes, virtually. According to this calculator, it's 77 vs 79. So, a 2% difference in just the sparge portion will be somewhere around a 1% change overall. Not big, but not zero.

I don't want to go further off-topic but Kai Troester has done studies, even sparging with cold water and there is no appreciable change in efficiency.

If I was batch sparging (and sometimes I do, sometimes I don't), I'd totally skip the mash out step.

When I batch sparge, I drain the mash tun completely, and use the water I would have used as a mash out in the first round of batch sparging (if all of the water won't fit in one round). It's quicker, easier, and will enhance efficiency. Try it!
 
I'm concerned with your kettle/transfer loss. You started with 6.6 gal pre boil and only managed to get 4.5 gal into fermenter. Since your gravity pre boil vs original gravity was not a huge increase I'm guessing you didn't boil off too much water, but instead left a lot of wort in the kettle. That's your call if the goal is to minimize trub/hop junk in the fermenter but it is going to drag down your brewhouse efficiency. No way you can leave 15-20% of your sugar in the kettle and still hit 75-80% efficiency...

Hey and thanks for posting all the recipe details, very much appreciate reading things like the gravity temp corrections and detailed volumes.
 
"I don't want to go further off-topic but Kai Troester has done studies, even sparging with cold water and there is no appreciable change in efficiency."

Yeah, I've read through that. The problem is that the impact is within the margin of error of the measurements. A 1% variance on a 1.060 beer is only .0006. It's not disproving the science, just confirming the scope of the affect.

And generally I don't mash out either since I batch sparge. I'd rather have an extra gallon of sparge water than a tiny bump in sugar solubility.
 
Unless I read it wrong, you had to add unplanned water in both cases. First to raise your temp and second to achieve boil volume. This is where you lost your points. Also, you didn't specifically mention it, but do you stir in your sparge water? If not, I would start doing so. An aggressive stir and a 5 minute wait is my method.

In both instances I did have to add unplanned water. Going to try a different mash/sparge calculator on my next brew. I have been using the beersmith calculator. I did not mention it but yes I stir the sparge water for 2-3 min.
 
I'm concerned with your kettle/transfer loss. You started with 6.6 gal pre boil and only managed to get 4.5 gal into fermenter. Since your gravity pre boil vs original gravity was not a huge increase I'm guessing you didn't boil off too much water, but instead left a lot of wort in the kettle. That's your call if the goal is to minimize trub/hop junk in the fermenter but it is going to drag down your brewhouse efficiency. No way you can leave 15-20% of your sugar in the kettle and still hit 75-80% efficiency...

Hey and thanks for posting all the recipe details, very much appreciate reading things like the gravity temp corrections and detailed volumes.

When I rack to the fermenter there is quite a bit of trub/hop junk left in the kettle, it's close to an inch thick. It wasn't like that until I started using whirlfloc and stopped putting my hops in muslin bags.
 
"I believe (read) the solubility of the sugars from 168-185 are virtually the same"


http://sugartech.co.za/solubility/index.php

Yes, virtually. According to this calculator, it's 77 vs 79. So, a 2% difference in just the sparge portion will be somewhere around a 1% change overall. Not big, but not zero.

The solubility of sugars at different temperatures is not a meaningful figure as far as brewing is concerned.
It specifies how much sugar can be dissolved in water. i.e. what the saturation point is.
From http://chestofbooks.com/food/science/Experimental-Cookery/The-Solubility-Of-The-Sugars.html there is a chart that gives the solubility at different temperatures expressed in various different ways including specific gravity.
You will see that the 77% and 79% values equal 77 and 79 degrees Plato or specific gravities between 1.39? and 1.41? These figures are completely meaningless during a sparge, especially as the first runnings would have to be even denser (which is impossible).

-a.
 
In both instances I did have to add unplanned water. Going to try a different mash/sparge calculator on my next brew. I have been using the beersmith calculator. I did not mention it but yes I stir the sparge water for 2-3 min.

Since you have Beersmith and you seem to do a good job taking notes, look for repeating trends and if need be, adjust your equipment variables and following that, your expected efficiency. Each system will vary. The key is tuning in yours so you can plan accordingly and nail your numbers consistently whatever they may be.
 
Since you have Beersmith and you seem to do a good job taking notes, look for repeating trends and if need be, adjust your equipment variables and following that, your expected efficiency. Each system will vary. The key is tuning in yours so you can plan accordingly and nail your numbers consistently whatever they may be.

The other thing I would suggest, even with Beersmith!, is that when you're ready to brew your next batch, toss your recipe and volumes and stuff up for us to eyeball.

Even though everybody's system is different, most of us have enough experience to notice when a volume or projected strike temperature is out of whack. Grain absorption is standard (about .125 gallons/pound) so you'll lose maybe a gallon of liquid in the mash (depending on grain amount), and your boil off rate is likewise static. We can take a lot and say, "Whoa- 15 gallons is way too much for a 6 gallon batch!" or whatever.
 
It reads like you've got accurate temp measuring devices. I'd look at the grain crush. Denny offers good mashing tips which have helped push my extraction into the upper 80s. Now I have to scale down grain bill recipes. :)

Hey, that's good to hear!
 
"Changing sparge water temp from 168-185 wouldn't affect your efficiency..."

Not exactly true. It's just a couple percent change for the sparge portion, so it's a 1%ish change overall. Not a zero impact, but pretty small overall.

Actually, the real reason I and others have seen an efficiency increase by using hotter sparge water is because it ensures more complete gelatinization and conversion of starch IMO.
 
I have not been checking ph level, nor have I bought test strips.My water comes from a well in west texas and is very hard water (no filtration or softener).

I should have it tested and be adding other items to achieve a better water profile.

I did read a post where they add 1-2 gallons of higher temp (180deg-190deg) water and mix well before they do their first running. Also on the same post they had a link to what seems to be an very good page on no-sparge and batch sparge, and a well made calculator. http://home.roadrunner.com/~brewbeer/files/nbsparge.html
(Hope posting that link doesn't violate any rules)

I helped Ken when he was developing that data and used to feed him my brewing data to verify his calculations. The info is good, but we've learned a lot since then. Take a look at www.dennybrew.com
 
"Actually, the real reason I and others have seen an efficiency increase by using hotter sparge water is because it ensures more complete gelatinization and conversion of starch IMO."

With all due respect (and I have a ton for you), conversion can be measured prior to lautering, so those can be separated variables. If you aren't getting 100% conversion, a mash out into the 160s will certainly help you get there, but if you are already at 100%, then there is nothing left to convert.
 
OP I may have missed this but with the DIY mash tun are you using the SS braid attached to a single barb on one end? If so how long is the braid? I found using a longer braid (around 48") attached to two barbs on a tee helped prevent the braid from getting stuck up in the grist and improved efficiency for batch sparging. If that's a non-issue I'll defer to the other discussion points going on here but I hadn't seen any posts about equipment on the thread.
 
"Actually, the real reason I and others have seen an efficiency increase by using hotter sparge water is because it ensures more complete gelatinization and conversion of starch IMO."

With all due respect (and I have a ton for you), conversion can be measured prior to lautering, so those can be separated variables. If you aren't getting 100% conversion, a mash out into the 160s will certainly help you get there, but if you are already at 100%, then there is nothing left to convert.

I completely agree. Maybe I missed it....did the OP say he was getting 100% conversion efficiency?
 
OP I may have missed this but with the DIY mash tun are you using the SS braid attached to a single barb on one end? If so how long is the braid? I found using a longer braid (around 48") attached to two barbs on a tee helped prevent the braid from getting stuck up in the grist and improved efficiency for batch sparging. If that's a non-issue I'll defer to the other discussion points going on here but I hadn't seen any posts about equipment on the thread.

In batch sparging a longer braid shouldn't make any difference in efficiency. If it does, then you have some other issue that's the real cause of your problem.
 
OP I may have missed this but with the DIY mash tun are you using the SS braid attached to a single barb on one end? If so how long is the braid? I found using a longer braid (around 48") attached to two barbs on a tee helped prevent the braid from getting stuck up in the grist and improved efficiency for batch sparging. If that's a non-issue I'll defer to the other discussion points going on here but I hadn't seen any posts about equipment on the thread.

Yes it is the SS braid with single barb, my braid is 24 in with a coiled SS wire inside to hold its form and keep from collapsing.
 

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