Anyone have a REAL lion's stout clone?

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Revvy

Revvy

Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc
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Teach a neighbor to brew day is coming up. I just realized that I haven't brewed a stout since my very first batch of beer over 5 years ago. My current beer obsession and favorite stout is Lions, the tropical stout from Sri-Lanka. It is a tropical stout. Which is a style unto itself.

There is a definite lack of clones on the internet for this beer. And on this forum there are 3 threads, two with no information and 1 with brother Edcculus's providing of a foreign export stout.

Technically Lion is a "tropical" stout, a stout lager...but I wasn't planning to lager it, just use a neutral ale yeast. But I still would like to get the grainbill right. To me Lion really is the perfect stout. It isuber clean, and it has notes of both chocolate and coffee, but I don't think they are acutally added...I think they are purely malt driven.

I don't have the clone brews books...is there a true lion's stout out there?????

Some clues,
The 8.0 per cent abv, bottle conditioned beer is brewed from British, Czech and Danish malts with Styrian hops and an English yeast strain. All the ingredients are transported along precarious roads to the brewery located 3,500 feet above sea level
Click to expand...
 
sorry no recipe, but man i need to try this! i tried the guinness black lager and it was a failed attempt. and from what you are saying, it sounds like what i thought the guinness would taste like. i googled it, and it looks like a few people are looking for it.

you are from michigan! i can't get enough of Founder's breakfast stout.

anyways, good luck finding it
 
I just stumbled onto the fact that Clonebrews is now on google books. And there is a Dragon Stout clone there. I've never had it. Has anyone done a head to head between Dragon and Lion?
 
Heres' the Dragon Stout recipe from Clone brews.

Grains
9.75 pounds American Pale Malt (6-Row)
2.25 pounds Flaked Maize
1.00 pounds Crystal Malt 120L
0.50 pounds British Chocolate Malt
0.30 pounds British Black Patent Malt
0.15 pounds British Roasted Barley
0.50 pounds Brown Sugar (Dark)
1.50 pounds Corn Sugar (Dextrose)
0.35 ounces Magnum @ 60 minutes
WYEAST California Lager 2112 — Liquid

* Mash grains at 155 with 4.6 gallons for 60 minues.
* Vorlauf for last 15 mins.
* Sparge with 5 gallons at 172
* Collect 6.75 gallons
* Boil 90 minutes
* Hops at 60
* Irish moss at 10
* Cool and pitch
* Ferment low 60's.

Has anyone had both Dragon and Lion that can give a good comparison?
 
I'm nominating my own thread for the lead balloon award...Since it seems no one has a clone for lions, nor have they ever it seems tasted both Dragon and Lion and can tell me what the difference between the two are.


So I hereby nominate if for Revvy's;

leadballoon.jpg


(This is actually a shameless bump to see if anyone's got any info.)
 
Revvy, I've got the BYO 250 recipe and I think they are both in there, I'm out of town til late Saturday though, I don't know if that's too late for you?
 
Absolutely! I'd be some what hesitant to use clonebrews, I have it and compared to BYO it seems pretty off in some of the recipes .....
 
Well off the bat i wouldn't think the dragon stout clone would be similar - it seems like it would be an example of a dry (and not tropical) FES due to all the simple sugars in the recipe.

I absolutely love this beer. After drinking a lot of it I feel that perhaps some of the malt bill is soured (similar to guinness). Or maybe this souring occurs from the way its conditioned over there - who knows, I just taste it.

I've emailed the brewery asking for any additional information on the beer but they never replied =[
 
So I gotta apologize,
The Dragon Stout is in the 250, not the lion stout.

Dragon Stout

Grain
12lb of 6 row
14oz of Crystal (75L)
.75lb of Simpsons Debittered black
1.75lb of corn sugar
2oz of Sinimar
11 AAU of Yakima Magnum @ 60min. (.67oz of 16%AAU)
Wyeast 2112 Lager

Mash @ 153 for 60
Boil for 120 min.
Sugar @ last 15 min.
Ferment @70, Condition @58 for 2 weeks
Add Sinimar when Kegging.

Aiming for
OG of 1.075
FG of 1.016
IBU of 35
SRM of 74
ABV of 7.5%


Sorry I couldn't be of more help ...
 
Waitaminute, wait a freakin minute. I have been operating under the idea that Lion, being a tropical stout, was a lager. BUT I was just reading the label on the bottle I was just drinking and the back label says it is top fermenting. In fact even Michal Jackson raved "This was the top-fermenting Lion Stout….it was bottle conditioned and had an extraordinary chcolatey, mocha…character"

SO that means it is an Ale dammit!!!!

So what yeast to do?

Anyone?
 
My 2 cents...
WLP0023 - Burton Ale. Fantastic flavors this yeast has (I'm in love with it), I think it would be great for a FES. Plus, it has moderate attenuation so it will still leave a good amount of residual sweetness that would be great for a tropical stout.
 
If you want to clone Lion, email Kris England.

I can tell you that the color is almost entirely not from grain.
 
remilard said:
If you want to clone Lion, email Kris England.

I can tell you that the color is almost entirely not from grain.
Click to expand...

Are you refferring to the Sinamar in the second recipe posted?

I looked it up

SSinamar® is the ideal way to color-correct your lighter beers and to adjust your SRM levels post-fermentation. It is also great for "creative" brewing, and turning a pilsner into a Schwartzbeer, a brown porter into a stout, an IPA into a Black IPA, etc. In order to raise the color of 5 gallons by 6 SRM use 1 ounce of Sinamar.

Sinamar®: Made from Carafa® roasted barley malt and is very dark in color. Extract value is 40-45 Plato°. Sinamar® has been de-bittered through a proprietary processes and does not cause turbidity. It is highly pH-stable and is an all natural product made without any additives.

Note: While Sinamar is primarily used for color correction it also has a slight impact on the beer's flavor profile as well. We recommend sampling for both color and flavor contribution when deciding how much to use in your beer.
Click to expand...

It can be bought here, http://morebeer.com/view_product/11337//Sinamar_-_All-Natural_Liquid_Malt_Color_1_oz

I've come upon mention of Dehusked caraffa Special 2 as a replacement.
 
Well they aren't using sinimar, probably something closer to brewer's caramel. Not sure exactly what they have in Sri Lanka. But the idea is that a lot of the color is coming from things that don't taste roasted so sinimar or carafa special in the sparge are probably reasonable approaches if not authentic.

Kris England probably knows more about tropical stout than anyone else in the US. If you are serious about making a good clone, I would pick his brain. He's a BJCP officer so you can contact him that way.
 
Please update this if you can, it's my GFs favorite beer and I love it too. Their bottles are my favorite also :). I can almost bottle an entire batch in Lion Stout bottles now hah.

Thanks!
 
floyd242 said:
Please update this if you can, it's my GFs favorite beer and I love it too. Their bottles are my favorite also :). I can almost bottle an entire batch in Lion Stout bottles now hah.

Thanks!
Click to expand...

I even sent Kris the link to the thread so maybe we'll get a direct response here.

I agree about the bottles. I decided that I am going to bottle at least 6 if not more of my 50th birthday barleywine in Lion bottles. Those probably would be the ones I would actually open at my birthday party. The rest of them interestingly enough I planned to use those cool little redstripe bottles, with the paint stripped off. It's funny that two jamican bottles are going to be used for my special beer. I did just find a local micro that started bottling their beers in the exact same RS bottles but with paper labels, so that will make my bottling easier.
 
Just got this back from Kris.

Lion stout is a bit tough b/c 1) its on the other side of the world and 2) there is really no solid information on it. The numbers are easy enough to come up with and the ingredients are pretty standard for all tropical stouts. All the clone recipes I've seen for Lion are usually quite wrong. They use too much malt, not enough sugar and defintely too much roast malt.

Have you ever had the Jamaican Dragon stout? Its quite similar. A little smoother and lower in alcohol. That one I have a sure replication of since i visitied the brewery. Its a good one to start with as you can add any sort of roastier flavors you want. If you like I can manipulate it and give you my best guess at a Lion clone. I've done a few before and can see with what I come up with, yeah?
Click to expand...

I replied with both the Dragon Recipes already on here, the one I posted and the one with sinamar to see what Kris thought.
 
More from Kristen

The latter was the Dragon Stout clone I published in BYO some time ago. Works out very well. I wouldn't use sinemar but its the only thing readily availible. I use Burnt Sugar. Google Jamaican burtn sugar and you'll see. Its wicked cheap and what you want for color. I'd swap corn sugar for unrefined Turbinado for sure. The problem most people have with this recipe is it finishes too dry for them. Let me double check the FG. I believe last I remember they backsweeten and pasteurize at the brewery.
Click to expand...

Now I gotta find me some burnt sugar.
 
Off topic, but I tried lion stout for the first time about a week ago due to this thread and I must say that it is AWESOME. Very enjoyable, and the price? Oh so right. I almost felt bad about paying 2.79 for a beer that is actually GOOD.

Continue on with this thread for a beer that is truly delicious.
 
So ARRRGH evidently Jamaican Burnt sugar is not that easily found in the Metro Detroit are....But since it appears that it is added, according to Kris England at kegging (or in my case @ bottling) time. So it isn't that crucial to brew day. And I'll mail order it and use it down the line.

So with Kris' help I am pulling together a decent recipe. I'll post it later, I'm still tweaking the numbers in beersmith.
 
devilishprune said:
Off topic, but I tried lion stout for the first time about a week ago due to this thread and I must say that it is AWESOME. Very enjoyable, and the price? Oh so right. I almost felt bad about paying 2.79 for a beer that is actually GOOD.

Continue on with this thread for a beer that is truly delicious.
Click to expand...

Yeah the funny thing I've noticed in metro detroit, is that it is often the only non-bmc/imported beer in many liquor stores. I really don't get it, but often you can find it tucked in with the "40's" of Malt liquor. That's why I ignored it for years until the name popped up on here. It is really strange considering, as my fruitless search has proven, there is not a big enough Jamaican or Sri Lankin Population it seems to warrant finding Burnt Sugar Syrup.

But at $3.00 or less a bottle it is a nice stout for the price.
 
Hmmm..Been doing some reading trying to find info about my errant and hard to find ingredient burnt sugar.

It occurred to me that although Dragon Stout is Jamaican, Lion Stout is actually Sri Lankin. So I'm thinking just maybe Lion's doesn't have the stuff in it. Maybe it has the Sri Lankin equivalent of it.

I googled "Burnt Sugar" and "Sri Lanka" and came up with the name. Kithul Treacle, and Jaggery. Looks like the two main ingredients in Sri-Lankin cooking.

Kithul-Treacle_350ml.jpg


1_1.jpg


“Kithul” is a Sri Lankan name to a variety of palm scientifically known as Caryota urens that grows in the Asian tropics. It is a species of indigenous flowering plant in the palm family from Sri Lanka, Myanmar and India. They naturally grow in the wild, in forest covers, in fields, in rain-forest clearings and even in home gardens. This palm has been used as an ornamental tree in the Philippines. In fact, our family has one tree growing right in front of our garden which my sister Ines got from a local garden supplier. They are commonly called solitary fishtail palm, toddy palm, wine palm or jaggery palm.

“Kithul” treacle and jaggery are products made from the sugary sweet sap obtained by tapping the young “Kithul” inflorescence according to a traditional methods. This traditional knowledge was a highly guarded and much valued secret, kept within families and handed down from generation to generation with the techniques being unmatched and not practiced in any other country in the region.

“Kithul” treacle, also called “Kithul honey” is similar to maple syrup and made from pure sap for a unique taste and aroma. Since it is an all-natural, chemical-free products with no additives or preservatives, it is a healthy alternative to granular sugar. In Sri Lanka, treacle is a “must-have” accompaniment to curd and a common ingredient in baking. For me, I have used this in “minatamis na saging” or sweetened banana, pancakes syrup and other sweets.

“Kithul” jaggery is produced by concentrated treacle heated to 200°C until it reaches a consistency similar to that of a thick syrup. It is then poured into moulds and cooled. It is a traditional unrefined non-centrifugal sugar ready to use as a natural sweetener with tea, herbal tea, sweet and savoury dishes, or simply enjoyed on its own. It is also used as an ingredient in both sweet and savory dishes across Sri Lanka. For me, I have used this in cooking "humba", "estopado" and other dishes requiring brown sugar.

kithultreacleand+jaggery6.JPG
Click to expand...

Looks like I'm making a trip to the indian market after work.
 
Posting some more info that is helping me turn the Jamaican Stout into a Sri Lankin. The biggest problem is that the Brewery's website is down for updates so I have to wing it.

Lion Brewery Ceylon—Biyagama, Sri Lanka (Southwestern Sri Lanka)

A great distance from the eastern coast of Scotland, we now turn to the island nation of Sri Lanka to find the source of our second featured international beer, Lion Stout. While the span between these two lands is tremendous, there is an interesting link between these very different breweries. Back when Sri Lanka was known as Ceylon, it was colonized by Portuguese, Dutch and British citizens, among others. The British had a particular interest in the local hill country, as it provided an ideal climate in which to plant that most nationally demanded of plants—tea. The Scottish were quite experienced with tea cultivation, and in the 1800s there was no shortage of them living and working in the region. One particular Scotsman, Sir Samuel Backer, lived in the veritable Garden of Eden up in the hill town of Nuara Eliya. In 1849, recognizing the unquenched thirst of his fellow European patriots for their other favorite beverage (ale), he established Sri Lanka's first brewery, the Ceylon Brewery, at the foot of one of Nuwara Eliya's most beautiful waterfalls, knows as 'the Lover's Leap'.

Sir Backer set up the brewery in an effort to bring beer to the local colony dwellers and natives alike, but likely did not envision the tremendous success of the brewery, nor the fact that nearly 100 years after it was founded, his beer would find its way back to his homeland, the U.K., as a Sri Lankan export. As the brewery garnered attention from eager investors, financial contributions greatly enhanced and expanded the original brewery enterprise.

After being taken over by Murree Brewery of India in 1884, the present company was founded by Mr. G. W. Lindsay White in 1911. Under his stewardship, the brewery flourished even further, a trend that continues to this day. In order to meet expanding demand, a second brewery, the Lion Brewery Ceylon, was established in Biyagama. A spring flowing from the hills above the brewery supplies their clear, chemical-free water, and malts are obtained from the reputable maltsters in the Czech Republic, Britain and Denmark. Hops are sourced from Slovenia, and they have been using the same high quality British yeast for fermentation for more than 30 years.
Click to expand...


So I am changing the Sugars from Kris' Dragon from Jamaican to Indian/Sri Lankan, which means Jaggery and Treacle. There's an Indian grocer a mile from here, so those ingredients are in hand.

The yeast has gone from a lager to an English Ale yeast S-05 and the Hops are now Czech. One of the sources says the hops are Styrian Goldings, so I am going with that.
 
This is what I am looking at right now, by the end of the day I need to have it all together.

Ingredients Amount Item Type % or IBU
11 lbs 2 oz Brewers Malt 6-Row (Briess) (1.8 SRM) Grain 78.94 %
11 oz Carafa III (525.0 SRM) Grain 4.93 %
11 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 4.93 %
2.31 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] (60 min) Hops 35.9 IBU
2 # 2oz Jaggery Sugar (2.0 SRM) Sugar 7.48 % (Two of the "cones" pictured below.)
8.4 oz Milk Sugar (Lactose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 3.72 %
3 oz Date Palm syrup or Date palm mollasses. [Boil for 15 min] (See picture below.)

2 Pkgs SafAle English Ale (DCL Yeast #S-04) Yeast-Ale

Mash at 153 for 60 minutes.
Bitterness: 35.9 IBU
Est Original Gravity: 1.081
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.89 %
 
floyd242 said:
Excellent! Looks interesting for sure. :)
Click to expand...

Thanks, we'll see. This is usually for me the hardest part of trying to come up with a clone. Seeing how the initial recipe meshes with the actual. It may be two or god knows how many versions til I get a true "clone."

But the thing is, if I get a stout I like with this recipe, then it may never get to a "clone.' It may just be a homage to a Sri Lankin, Stout.

I guess since this is a hybrid of Lion and Dragon Stout, then it would be a Chimera Stout, eh?

chimera_web.jpg
 
Looky Looky what I got. :ban:

76465_453781254066_620469066_5475195_8172048_n.jpg


Got me 2.2 pounds of Jaggery, and a 6 ounce bottle of Date Palm Treacle Syrup. They also had Date Palm Molasses, but I figured the syrup was less intense.

I am now condisdering priming the stout with either or both of those at bottling time. I would just need to figure the sugar content of the stuff.
 
floyd242 said:
Please update this if you can, it's my GFs favorite beer and I love it too. Their bottles are my favorite also :). I can almost bottle an entire batch in Lion Stout bottles now hah.

Thanks!
Click to expand...

I saved up so many Lion Stout bottles when I was getting into homebrewing, only the have my box break open and all the bottles get destroyed. It was a sad day.

Revvy, good luck with your recipe. I love this beer and hope you come up with a good clone.
 
I'm planning to bottle it this weekend. Here's a possible label design.

Chrimera_Stout_lable_copy.jpg


There will be text on the right on it's side so that's why it is off center. I forgot about the above picture...but this looks cool.
 
Thanks for the thread Revvy.
just joined up on HBT the other day & was thinking maybe I could find some info on brewing a Lion clone when lo & behold your post is the first I see today.
Can't wait to hear about the outcome.
 
I am also excited to see the results from this brew (one of my favorites, and only $4.99/6-pack at my corner store). On a side note, never try Lion Imperial. It's absolutely disgusting, and tastes like malt liquor.
 
Here's some info on how I am going to prime it this weekend.

The October 2010 Basic Brewing radio was all about alternative priming methods, and the guest (who btw, although he is a minister, from michigan, and is an expert on bottling, is NOT ME, but the coincidence is freaky) offers info on calculating how to prime with strange things.

I figured out the calculation for using Jaggery Mollasses from Bangladesh to prime my Sri-lankin stout.

October 28, 2010 - Alternate Priming Sugars
Home brewer Drew Filkins shares his technique of using alternative ingredients to put the bubbles in his brew.

Click to Listen-Mp3

Hydrometer readings and sugar content charts from HomeWinemaking.com http://www.home-winemaking.com/winemaking-2b.html
Click to expand...

Basically what you need to do is look for the sugar or carbhydrate amount in the syrup and the serving size, they are defining it by.

You also want to first calculate how much corn sugar you would normally use to carb to whatever style you are aiming for, then convert that to grams. Then based on the amount of sugar (OR CARBOHYDRATES if sugars is not listed, which on some products labels they don't) per whatever serving size they give, you then will know how much of the stuff to use..


Ie, my stout I want to carb to 2.45 volumes of co2, which measures out to 4.3 oz of corn sugar at 70 degrees.

That works out to 121.9 grams....

I found online via google, that the Jaggery mollasses contains 12 grams of sugar/tablespoon. So to get to 122 grams I need about 11 tablespoons.

That works our to about 5/8 of a cup. I will add that to enough water to get to 2 cups and boil it.

Listen to the podcast for a better explantaion..

If you CAN'T find any nutritional info (which by law I thought it has to be posted somethwere) you're going to have to fudge it...you can treat it as mollasses, or honey and use the recommended measurment. I have a chart in my bottling thread that shows honey, maple sugar et al.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/bottling-tips-homebrewer-94812/#post1030376
 

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