Mods for Poland Spring-This sound right?

Hi all, one of my brewing books has a section in the back for water modifications based on water hardness/softness. It seem to be very useful, but I'm wondering how accurate it is?

I brew with Poland Spring water (most recent water analysis attached), and from what I'm reading it's very soft. I like IPAs, brown ales and Stouts, here are the water additions for these styles.

For American IPAs the additions for "soft" water are: 2-tsp Gypsum, .25-tps non-iodized table salt, and 1-tsp Epsom salt.

For Oatmeal Stouts, the additions for "soft" water are: .25-tsp Gypsum, .125-tsp non-iodized table salt, .125-tsp chalk.

For English/Irish Brown Ales, the additions for "soft" water are: .33-tsp Gypsum, .5-tsp non-iodized table salt.

The definition of "soft" water is <50 Carbonate CO3 and <50 Sulfate SO4.

Based on the attached water analysis of Poland Spring, are these additions fairly accurate, or should they be altered seeing how soft Poland Spring water is?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Assuming the numbers are all ppm that is soft water.

The additions look fine to me, but there is quite a variety of opinions on use of some of those salts. For example you may hear not to use Calcium Carbonate because it's not going to dissolve well. You may hear not to use NaCl because it just tastes salty, use CaCl instead. You may hear the avoid MgSO4 because too much leaves a metallic taste and the yeast don't need much Magnesium at all. You may hear not to attempt to adjust flavor with salts, all you need to worry about is alkalinity and the effect on mash pH.

Here is my two cents:
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2012/11/basic-water-chemistry.html

That water is similar to RO quality and is well suited as a basis for brewing water. The addition of minerals is highly recommended for performance and flavor reasons. I don't know what those teaspoon measures will produce in terms of ppm, but they seem reasonable. I prefer to work with weight measures since they are more accurate.

Assuming that all those mineral additions result in modest ion concentrations, there is no reason not to include them. I routinely include epsom and table salt in my brewing water for their flavor effects.

Chalk is not an effective way to add alkalinity to mashing water. It dissolves slowly...even in the mash. A suggest you read the Chalk none up for Chalk article on the Bru'n Water Facebook page for a better description of why you shouldn't use chalk.

Thank guys, for the helpful info.

I've heard the same thing about chalk not dissolving well and swapped it out in my last brew with baking soda. Is that ok to do, and have the same effects as chalk?

I think I used too much BS (unfortunately) in my Oatmeal stout, my ph shot up to something like 5.8 or something. Not sure what sort of effects it will have...

Should I have added gypsum to my mash to try and correct it?

Here is how I deal with mash pH:
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2012/10/mash-ph.html

Pelican521 said:

Thank guys, for the helpful info.

I've heard the same thing about chalk not dissolving well and swapped it out in my last brew with baking soda. Is that ok to do, and have the same effects as chalk?

I think I used too much BS (unfortunately) in my Oatmeal stout, my ph shot up to something like 5.8 or something. Not sure what sort of effects it will have...

Should I have added gypsum to my mash to try and correct it?

Click to expand...

How did you decide how much baking soda to add? It does sound like too much was added if the pH went to 5.8. Baking soda can be a useful way to add alkalinity as long as the sodium content of the starting water is very low.

I would not chase pH by adding gypsum. That could be a tail-chasing activity.

I don't remember exactly. Like all the info I end up using, I got in from info I've read online. Since there's so many variables in peoples water/brewing practices, I try to get a range of opinions and go from there.

Not ideal, I know. That's why I was hoping the info in the brewing book would be more accurate to follow so I can eliminate my guesswork.

Can you recommend a decent ph meter for around $30?

How about triple that. There are no decent meters for that price. Milwaukee MW-101 has proven to be a trooper for me.

yep, I was afraid of that. Maybe someday I'll bite the bullet and buy one.

Otherwise, I feel like I'm on the right track!

So, I'll go ahead and treat my bottled water as described in my OP and then if I need to raise my mash ph I'll use baking soda (sparingly), and if I need to lower my mash ph I'll use Lactic Acid.

Thanks for your help guys!

This is low mineral water. Your additions are not unreasonable except that chalk should not be used as it is ineffective (see http://www.wetnewf.org/pdfs/chalk.html - warning: fairly technical) at its intended purpose, may do damage to the beer later in the brewing process (does not contribute alkalinity when it is supposed to but may release it later on) and alkalinity isn't required in a many stouts anyway. There are lots of ways to work with water like this. The Primer here gives one set of recommendations (not that unlike what you are already doing) and there are lots of spreadsheets and calculators that will advise on how much of what to add for which style of beer. In choosing one keep in mind that chasing profiles (i.e. trying to simulate Chiswick water to brew something like the Fuller's beers) is not often profitable.

Just as an side note: 'softness' is defined by the calcium and magnesium content of water - not it's sulfate or bicarbonate levels.

Thanks AJ, I've read about chalk not dissolving well (probably from something I've read from you, so could I substitute baking soda for it?

On a side note, I'm wondering if my water is suitable for brewing? Could you tell me what you think of my water report? I'm not sure if any of the inorganic compounds would be a problem or anything else would make it unsuitable for brewing.

Or would it be better idea to "cut" some of my water with spring water? I do 5 gal boils so I was thinking 3 gal spring water to 2 gal my water.

Would that be a good idea or should I stick with my spring water (or go all tap water).

Thanks for your help.

Your supplier has really gone out of his way to conceal the important information from you as neither hardness (Ca++, Mg++) nor alkalinity data are given. Absent those it is pretty hard to draw any conclusions or make any recommendations. Sodium, chloride and sulfate are all at reasonable levels and your harndesses and alkalinity probably are too but you need to find out what those are. You can easily test for those yourself (get kits from Hach) or (less expensive but one shot) send a sample off to Ward Labs. None of the organics would be problematical as they are all at compliant levels and it is very likely that the alkalinity and harndess numbers will be reasonable too.

The one scheme that always works is to use RO water as consideration as to what is in the original supply is, once the RO system is designed and installed, no longer a factor. The big disadvantage with RO, IMO, is that brewers are no longer forced to learn any water chemistry. The big advantage is that it is a blank sheet of paper you are starting with and the same every time you brew. Just add a few salts and go.

Lime and sodium bicarbonate are both acceptable sources of alkali should any be needed (RO or your tap water).

hmmm, that's strange. Maybe I'll just stick with the spring water since I don't want to buy a R/O unit at this time.

My local grocery store doesn't sell it either.

I may do a mash test with 2 gal of my tap water and see what happens.

Thanks for your help.

I'm not sure what you are calling strange. Not publishing the information needed by brewers is not strange at all. In fact I have only heard of one utility that does have a portion of their report specifically dedicated to brewers (bless them!). Many utilities post a thorough analysis but most just what is required by regulation. Regulations do not require that hardness or alkalinity data be given but hardness information is of value to the average consumer in that it helps him make decisions as to whether he needs a water softener or not.

There are several things you can do. The first should be to find out what you are working with. A Ward Labs test is not expensive and will include the data you need. Simple, inexpensive alkalinity and hardness test kits are sold at aquarium, swimming pool and hardware stores. Talking to other home brewers in your area will not only give you an idea of what the water is like but of what works with it.

Thanks AJ, I think I'm going to send a sample to Ward Labs and see how my water really looks.

My last oatmeal stout is undrinkable even after 6 months bottled. I used the Poland Spring water and wasn't aware that I should have added some minerals/etc and didn't know I needed to check mash ph/etc, (live and learn i guess). Seeing that my process was pretty dialed in (mash temp held at 152º for an hour, yeast pitched under 70º, wort aerated well, temp controlled ferm chamber@63º), I'm thinking my problem has to do with water chemistry and/or mash ph control so I'm trying to learn as much as possible in hopes to improve my beer.

This may be a double post since I posted this question as a separate thread but I'm trying to fill out a water calculator with the Spring Water data I use and a lot of it's compounds have a "range", should I just take an average of those numbers to input?

Pelican521 said:

Thanks AJ, I think I'm going to send a sample to Ward Labs and see how my water really looks.

My last oatmeal stout is undrinkable even after 6 months bottled. I used the Poland Spring water and wasn't aware that I should have added some minerals/etc and didn't know I needed to check mash ph/etc, (live and learn i guess). Seeing that my process was pretty dialed in (mash temp held at 152º for an hour, yeast pitched under 70º, wort aerated well, temp controlled ferm chamber@63º), I'm thinking my problem has to do with water chemistry and/or mash ph control so I'm trying to learn as much as possible in hopes to improve my beer.

This may be a double post since I posted this question as a separate thread but I'm trying to fill out a water calculator with the Spring Water data I use and a lot of it's compounds have a "range", should I just take an average of those numbers to input?

Click to expand...

Yep. If you mashed all the grain together and used that very nice low-alkalinity Poland Spring water, the mash pH was probably lower than desirable.

What to do when a report lists a range is not clear. If the range is small then you can use the average of the high and low numbers with confidence but if it is huge then you have to ask yourself how the numbers in between are distributed (in the statistical sense). If the high number occurs on the one day a year when the utility has to buy water from an adjacent utility but hovers around the same value near the low for the other 364 then clearly you should weight the low number higher in calculating the 'average'. Usually you aren't given enough information to let you make this determination. Frequent samples to Ward Labs or frequent self testing (of the parameters you can test yourself) are one way around this problem and the other is to wipe out the variation by use of RO.