Pliny the Younger Clone

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scottland

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**See Post 42 for the results**

After lots of research, listening to interviews, and emailing the man himself, I'm brewing a PTY clone this weekend. I'm pretty confident my recipe is close. High level overview is: First I took the PTE recipe, and multiplied each hop addtion (90, 45, 30, 0) by 1.5. I've heard Vinnie say multiple times that PTE has almost exactly double the hops of their IPA, and the Younger has triple. I know PTY is supposed to be mostly about Simcoe/Amarillo, so I geared the hop additions around that. I've heard Vinnie say he likes to use Centennial as 'filler' so that's why it's there. Then I switched the 90min and most of the 45min additions over to hop extract. This was actually the difficult part; calculating the amount needed.

To make a very long story short, I ended up calcing that ~ 4oz of a 17.5% AA hop was needed to bitter this beer. That's around 70AAU. Then i calculated that the Northern Brewer hopshots (despite their crappy formula) are around 10AAU each. In other words, each 5ml syringe of hop shot is equivilent to 1oz of a 10% AA hop. So while it sounds ridiculous, I'm using 7 syringes of hop shot for the 90 minute addition.

The final piece to the puzzle was the dry hop schedule. If you listen to the 3 or 4 shows that Vinnie has been on from the Brewing Network, it's mostly there in bits and pieces. I think I found the last little bit in some old BYO article. My dry hop schedule looks almost identical to the one that's kicking around the internet, so I'm assuming they got the info from the same places.

So I ended up emailing Vinnie my proposed recipe to see if he could tell me if I was in the ball park. I wrote the grain bill as just percentages, and the hops in pound/bbl. Give the man credit, as he actually replied like 2 days later! He said he's never scaled the Younger recipe down to homebrew levels, but he said what I had looked good. One thing that struck me as odd is that he said the Younger did have 4% C40 malt in it. I'm assuming that's a relativly new addition, as I remember him saying in the past that Younger was just 2-row and carapils. So with that little tweak, here's the recipe I'm brewing.

Target OG: 1.089
Target FG: 1.008
ABV: 10.5%
IBU: ......?

16.5lbs 2-Row
12oz Carapils
12oz Crystal 40
1.33lbs Dextrose
Mash @ 148

35ml Hop Extract @ 90
5ml Hop Extract @ 45
.35oz CTZ @ 45
1.5oz Simcoe @ 30
1.5oz Centennial @ 0
1.5oz Amarillo @ 0
2.5oz Simcoe @ 0

Fermenting with 2 packs US-05 at around 65F

Dry Hop 1: .5oz ea: Amarillo, Simcoe, Centennial
Dry Hop 2: 1oz ea: Amarillo, Centenial
Dry Hop 3: 1oz ea: Simcoe, CTZ
Dry Hop 4: .5oz ea Amarillo, Simcoe

I'm going to crash the primary before I transfer to the secondary to drop as much yeast out of suspension as possible. Vinnie does mention they drop the hops before each subsequent dry hop. I don't have a conical and I don't like monkeying with bags for dry hops, so that won't happen. I'll just do each addition for 4-5 days, and leave them in there.

That's about it for now. I'll post some pictures and updates how the brew day went this weekend.

Has anyone else tried to clone this beer? Any tips or tricks?
 
Thanks for doing all the legwork and sharing. I'll brew this next and post my results. Not sure though if I'll be able to fill the hop bill.

Regards,
Brobeman
 
The dryhop for Younger is 1.00 oz. per gallon of beer, and the last of the 4 additions is done in the keg.

Elder is 0.75 oz. dryhops per gallon in 3 additions.

Vinnie also uses pellets (not leaf hops) for both Pliny beers. Just throwing that out there for anyone who's curious.

Lastly, this would definitely be a beer where I would make a big nasty starter of WLP001. I would never resort to dry yeast for this beast.
 
I would suggest dropping the carapils if you add the C40 to the recipe. Important to keep the FG low in a beer like this and the C40 and carapils will both do exactly the opposite of that.
 
Lastly, this would definitely be a beer where I would make a big nasty starter of WLP001. I would never resort to dry yeast for this beast.

Some friends and I brewed 20 gallons of PTE last year in two 10 gallon back-to-back batches. We blended the wort 50/50 between the batches to account for any differences that may have occured. We then pitched WLP001 in 10 gallons and US05 in 10 gallons. Fermented both in a temperature controlled refrigerator. Starting and finished gravities came out the same. In blind tasting, nobody could tell which was which. There was an ever so slight difference between the two beers, but the US05 was picked each time as the preferred one. I will have no issue using US05 on a PTE or PTY beer again.
 
I would suggest dropping the carapils if you add the C40 to the recipe. Important to keep the FG low in a beer like this and the C40 and carapils will both do exactly the opposite of that.

Oh, i hear you. The carapils and dextrose are taking the FG in opposite directions, but this nonetheless, I'm pretty sure this is the grain bill they brew. Someone once asked Vinnie about that, and he said the carapils was always in the recipe so he didn't want to change it.

bobbrews said:
The dryhop for Younger is 1.00 oz. per gallon of beer, and the last of the 4 additions is done in the keg.

I'm not too far from your numbers. I've got 6.5oz of dry hops for a 6 gallon batch.

As far as dry yeast goes, I was kicking around the idea of making a 4QT starter of WLP001. I've had great luck with US05 for double IPAs though. Had a couple beers score in the mid 40s with that yeast, so I have no qualms with it. I'm running to the LHBS tonight for the grain, so I might pick up some 001 while i'm there......maybe

Here's a quick shot of the hops and extract going in this beer. I'll be using all but about 2 ounces of that.

DSC_6168.jpg
 
...I took the PTE recipe, and multiplied each hop addtion... by 1.33. I've heard Vinnie say multiple times that PTE has almost exactly double the hops of their IPA, and the Younger has triple.

Wouldn't that be x1.5 then?

IPA x 2 = PTE
IPA x 3 = PTY
3/2 = 1.5
 
Some friends and I brewed 20 gallons of PTE last year in two 10 gallon back-to-back batches. We blended the wort 50/50 between the batches to account for any differences that may have occured. We then pitched WLP001 in 10 gallons and US05 in 10 gallons. Fermented both in a temperature controlled refrigerator. Starting and finished gravities came out the same. In blind tasting, nobody could tell which was which. There was an ever so slight difference between the two beers, but the US05 was picked each time as the preferred one. I will have no issue using US05 on a PTE or PTY beer again.

I don't doubt that they may have tasted similar since US-05 and WLP001 have almost identical traits, but for a big beer like Younger, you probably won't end up with the same FG. A properly sized WLP001 starter will attenuate more.
Yeast health is of the utmost importance... especially for a beer at 1.089 OG. You hear this time and time from pro brewers, Chris White, and on Jamil's podcast. The brewer of Avery fervently emphasized the importance of this for Maharaja. I've also used both as well and I'm convinced that a liquid yeast colony of adequate size is the way to go for big beers such as this. At 1.070 OG or less, it may not matter so much. But we're talking about 1.089 here.
 
I don't doubt that they may have tasted similar since US-05 and WLP001 have almost identical traits, but for a big beer like this, you probably won't end up with the same FG.

Re-read his post. He mentions the final gravities were the same. I'm confident in US05 for big beers. In fact, I find that US05 usually attenuates a little more than WLP001. I find it's also a little less flocculate than 001, so that pretty much explains why. US05 takes my 8.5% DIPA down to 1.008-1.009 every time. This beer has more dextrose, and a lower mash temp, so we'll see.

I think i'm going to roll with 2 packs of US05 (properly re-hydrated, of course). I might get a little crazy and pitch 2.5 packs.
 
Re-read his post. He mentions the final gravities were the same.

I was talking about the 1.089 Younger the OP is brewing... not 1.070 Elder that JonW brewed.

I feel WLP001 will lend different results than US-05 for that particular beer.
 
35ml of hopshot!

am i wrong or does this chart suggest 7.7 ML, not 7 total viles:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/hopshot.pdf

Im all sort of wrong here I think

You are right if the PDF is right.

Each vial only contains 5ml.

If their chart is accurate @ OG 1.050 and 5 Gallons, (5ml hopshot = 10 IBU) and (15ml = 30 IBU), then 15ml of hopshot is equal to about 1oz of 10%AA hops, give or take a few IBUs here or there.

I would normally put at least 3 oz of 10 AA% hops into any DIPA. 15ml x 3 =45ml so the 40ml listed in he recipe doesnt seem completely out of whack, based on that math.


EDIT:

Wait that chart is per ml like you said. so 1ml= 10 IBU in 5 gallons?

that means 3ml equals 1 oz of 10AA% hops. If that is right, 40ml is equivolent to 13.3 oz of 10% AA hops!!!

Weird I wonder which is right.

 
the chart also says 90 min boil decreases the need for hopshot by 10%, so, for 1.090 wort boiled for 90 min to 100IBUs you will need 10mL of hop extract, or 2 hopshots.
 
I took the chart and threw it in the trash. It's useless without knowing which formula they are using. I went to the Hop Union website, and found out the following.

Their generic CO2 hop extract (what I'm 95% sure hopshots are) weighs 1g per ml. Therefore 5ml weighs ~ 5g. The extract is ~ 50-60% AA. So 5ml of extract contain 2.5-3.0g of actual Alpha Acids; I'll split the difference and say 2.75g.

Now let's convert that to hops. 28g = 1oz. 28g of say....Amarillo @ 10% AA would have 2.8g AA. So that's why I say a 5ml syringe of hopshot equates to 1oz of a 10% AA hop. This takes the IBU formulas out of the equation. The extract efficiency between extract and pellets is surprisingly about the same, so that doesn't factor in.

Yes, this is a ton of IBUs depending on the calculator you use. I get 203IBU with the Tinseth formula (what I use) or 340IBU from the Rager formula. Keep in mind the popular PTE recipe calcs at 168/253 IBUS (tinseth/rager).

The PTE recipe calls for 48.5 AAU of bittering hops at 90 minutes (3.5oz CTZ @13.9%). I went with around 68AAU of bittering at 90 minutes. It's a pinch less than the 50% increase in hops the recipe uses everywhere else.
 
so i see what you did. if you are doing something similar to themadfermentationists recipe, its bittered to (gasp) 300IBU's.

so, 30mL of hop extract needed for 90 minutes. (already excluding the 10% for extended boil, 33mL w/o 10% decrease)

crazy. good luck
 
Ya, if you use the Rager formula, it's like a 340IBU beer. I think that'll be about right.
 
Subscribed and definitely watching for the results. All the math is making me dizzy and I lost track, are you still going with the 7 vials at 90?
 
Pliny the Younger is all about hitting the correct attenuation levels. Russian River's website states it starts at 1.088 and has an ABV of 10.5%. In order to hit that ABV, you're looking at 92% attenuation with that starting gravity. I brewed a beer 'inspired' by the younger (different hops, slightly different malt profile) and hit my attenuation and gravity numbers spot on. It's dry hopping now and will be served at NHC club night along with 3 other beers inspired by the Younger. Come sample it at the Homebrewers Guild of Seattle Proper booth.

You can see my recipe here:
http://www.seattleproper.com/news/youngeratheart

Edit: I should also note, that the Younger is not a super bitter beer. I've had it a couple times and the apparent bitterness is less intense than the Elder.
 
Ya, in my opinion, this beer won't be a successful clone unless it attenuates to 1.009 or lower. It will be a great beer, but it won't be Younger.

I mash my 1.075 DIPA at 148 for an hour, then 150 for 15 minutes. It finishes around 1.008-1.009. I use around 5% dextrose in that recipe.

I was planning on mashing this beer at strictly 148 for 75 minutes, and hoping that 6.5-7% dextrose would be enough. I'm now seconding guessing that, considering you needed 15% dextrose to attenuate to 1.007. I do find that US05 is slightly more attenuative than WLP001 though.

I'm now considering more dextrose.....

BTW, great results on that beer. The recipe looks very, very similar to my DIPA recipe, just a little bigger OG. So I can definitely picture what that tastes like; should be delicious.

In terms of bittering, were your hop shot syringes 15ml each? If so, you and I are roughly on the same page in terms of our bittering charges.
 
In terms of bittering, were your hop shot syringes 15ml each? If so, you and I are roughly on the same page in terms of our bittering charges.

Yes, the syringes were 15ml each. I've had pretty good luck with them on other beers, although experience has taught me that either I don't get as good utilization with them, or that the perceived bitterness is about 10-20% lower than the published IBUs you should be getting. This is why I included a small charge of pellet hops in the bittering addition.

This beer is tasting phenomenal, and very close to the Younger in terms of mouthfeel, body, bitterness, and really even the malt profile. The hops on my version are more tropical and fruity than the Younger. Both times I've had the Younger I've been struck by how light the color is, how lean the malt is, and how non-excruciatingly bitter it is. I actually like my beer a bit better.

The 15.7% dextrose used has no perceivable adverse effects. I fermented cool to keep fusels in check. No cider flavors to speak of.
 
I was talking about the 1.089 Younger the OP is brewing... not 1.070 Elder that JonW brewed.

I feel WLP001 will lend different results than US-05 for that particular beer.

You always seem to have an answer. Thank goodness we have people around here to provide insight into the perceived unknowns of homebrew. Does it get tiring?
 
You always seem to have an answer. Thank goodness we have people around here to provide insight into the perceived unknowns of homebrew. Does it get tiring?

You're welcome.
It's not unknown; you just didn't read it correctly.
It gets tiring reposting what was already clearly stated, yes.
 
Brew day went smooth. Went with a pinch less two row, and 1.5lbs dextrose. 1.089 gravity OG. Pitched two packs of rehydrated US05. Fermentation fridge is set at 62*.
 
1.009 and still fermenting. 1.007 to 1.008 shouldn't be an issue. The krausen has dropped, but i think it still has a couple points left.

I'll ride out the primary until Wednesday or Thursday. Rack to secondary then, and begin dry hopping.
 
i've learned that if you take US05 under 66F, it will give that tart peach flavor...above 66F is clean and neutral. Not sure if you wanted one or the other, but thought I would share.
 
I always ferment US05 around 62-64F, and never really run into the peach ester people mention :shrug:
 
FG came in at 1.008. It's dropped clear, and done attenuating. The alcohol character is a little hot, so the long dry hop will be do this beer well. 10.62% ABV
 
FG came in at 1.008. It's dropped clear, and done attenuating. The alcohol character is a little hot, so the long dry hop will be do this beer well. 10.62% ABV

Awesome. Sounds like you're hitting the specifications perfectly. Hopefully the booziness will subside. Mine tamed quite a bit.
 
Ya, so far so good. I'm crashing to primary down to 50F as we speak. I'm going to rack to secondary tomorrow and begin the dry hop madness.
 
Alright, racked to secondary, and started dry hopping with the first addition. Didn't expect many updates for the next three weeks. I'm going to add each dry hop for 5 days rather than 7, since my house is 78*, compared to the 68* RR dry hops at. Also, pellets are going straight in the better bottle, no bags, and they won't be removed. That's about it, updates in around 3 weeks when it gets kegged.
 
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