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roymullins

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Been brewin' off and on for many years... have made some ok beer and some absolutely fantastic ones- but...

every beer I make must sit for a while- like 4-6 months before it loses its weird flavors- they always come out with a little medicine/alcohol, slight off flavor- it dissapates over time but I find my best beers are the ones that are in the back of the fridge that get forgotten about for several months... am I alone? I hear of others drinking their beers after 6 weeks or even sooner if they keg... I know the breweries don't wait that long... not sure what I am missing- I use high quality ingredients, sanitize everything well... frustrating- don't mind enjoying beers 4-6 months out but would like to solve this and be able to drink them sooner- any thoughts?
 
By what means do you control fermentation temps? A lot of off flavors start here. Any particular recipes or styles give you problems? Walking us through your process might help zero in on problems.
 
By what means do you control fermentation temps? A lot of off flavors start here. Any particular recipes or styles give you problems? Walking us through your process might help zero in on problems.

Agreed. High fermentation temps could mean fusel alcohol production, which could lead to alcohol-y/"hot" flavors.
 
A couple things come to mind:

1) what temperatures are you fermenting at? If too hot, you'll end up with fusel-type alcohols, which could be giving you the off flavor you describe.

2) what is your water source and is it free of chlorine and chloramine? Both of these will combine with polyphenols in the beer to give you chlorophenols, which have a medicinal/plasticy/band-aid flavor and can be tasted in minute quantities.
 
A couple things come to mind:

1) what temperatures are you fermenting at? If too hot, you'll end up with fusel-type alcohols, which could be giving you the off flavor you describe.

2) what is your water source and is it free of chlorine and chloramine? Both of these will combine with polyphenols in the beer to give you chlorophenols, which have a medicinal/plasticy/band-aid flavor and can be tasted in minute quantities.

I'll add one more to this list...

3) Are you pitching the proper amount of healthy yeast?
 
yeah- haven't paid much attention to fermentation temps- usually out it in the garage in the summer/spring/fall and start it indoors in the winter- I live in the mild PacNW so I have never been to concerned about it- usually not to hot around here

I usually end up putting more than enough yeast in- often times I brew a three gallon batch (less bottles- more varieties of beer in the fridge...)
 
sorry- didn't finish- I usually out a full pouch of yeast in a batch- enough yeast for 5 gallons rather than three- never thought that would harm it-

I usually transfer to secondary after 3-5 days to get it off the lees- thinking that that might be the cause of some of the weird flavors- I usually leave in secondary for a long time- sometimes I rack again... I hate bottling so I put it off for a while- sometimes a month or more- (I know... keg it! Someday...)

Thanks for all the comments! Merry Christmas!
 
also- I have experimented with water- have used cheap- bottled drinking or spring water from Wal-Mart lately- figuring that it would be cleaner and clearer than tap ...
 
What immediately came to mind is fermentation temps, and I still feel this almost definitely accounts for most or all of the problems.

I live in Canada and I still benefit greatly from temp control. Ambient temperatures even in the low 60's can be bad for many beers.

A used chest freezer off of Craigslist plus a temperature controller from eBay will net you a top-notch fermentation chamber for between $20 to $70 (depending how cheaply you can score a freezer). That's a pretty minimal investment for something that can so greatly improve your beer - dollar for dollar it's probably the best investment you can make for your brewery.
 
sorry- didn't finish- I usually out a full pouch of yeast in a batch- enough yeast for 5 gallons rather than three- never thought that would harm it-

I usually transfer to secondary after 3-5 days to get it off the lees- thinking that that might be the cause of some of the weird flavors- I usually leave in secondary for a long time- sometimes I rack again... I hate bottling so I put it off for a while- sometimes a month or more- (I know... keg it! Someday...)

Thanks for all the comments! Merry Christmas!



OK the Amount of yeast is not the problem.

Sounds like temp is the problem. Make sure that the temp is in the range for the yeast you are using.

Also , You are actually racking too soon. Many here will tell you that you do not need to move it at all, and I am one of them. You will not pick up wierd flavors letting the beer sit on the yeast for a long time, I often leave the brew sit in the primary for up to two months.
 
If you're not alone, there's not many that share your issues. Then again it seems like they are self inflicted.

I only age bigger beers for anything even close to that. Most of mine, though are done and ready to drink in under a month. Fermenting at the right temperatures, pitching the right yeast for the recipe, and using good/great water all make for great beer. Waiting 4-6 months just to get OK/good beer, IMO, is just nuts. Using cheap water is rather risky since it could be barely filtered. I would get a filter system under your sink to use. I've been doing that from the start and haven't had any off flavors from water (or anything else actually). If I was getting the same results as you I would not have waited years to figure out why and correct it.
 
yeah- haven't paid much attention to fermentation temps- usually out it in the garage in the summer/spring/fall and start it indoors in the winter- I live in the mild PacNW so I have never been to concerned about it- usually not to hot around here

Behind sanitation the two most important aspects of brewing are fermentation temp control and yeast pitching. Use the search function here for 'swamp cooler', it's a cheap system many here use. All you need are a rubbermaid bucket and 2-liter bottles. Too high or even too low of fermentation temperature stresses the yeast and produces off flavors.

I usually end up putting more than enough yeast in- often times I brew a three gallon batch (less bottles- more varieties of beer in the fridge...)

Now for the other all important aspect of brewing, yeast pitching. Overpitching is generally frowned upon, but it should have nothing to do with your off flavor issues. I'm guessing your issues are fermentation derived.

I usually out a full pouch of yeast in a batch- enough yeast for 5 gallons rather than three- never thought that would harm it-

Reiterate from above, that shouldn't hurt anything. However over pitching (ie using too much yeast) in something like a Belgian, English, or Wit/Wheat would rob you of flavor/phenols. Conversely some brewers over pitch on purpose with say a mild English yeast to get a cleaner ferment for an American style ale. Make sense? In essence under pitching stresses the yeast creating off flavors, just like too high a fermentation temp does. While over pitching creates a cleaner beer with less phenolic/spice/flavor character.

I usually transfer to secondary after 3-5 days to get it off the lees- thinking that that might be the cause of some of the weird flavors

I suspect this is the other half if not a majority of your issue. Many brewers don't rack at all, kegging/bottling right from the primary. Commercial breweries routinely get away with moving the bier/dropping the yeast after a few days but homebrewers can't get away with this. Leave the next couple batches in primary for at least 2 weeks before racking. If that eliminates a lot of your issues you could reduce that number down to 10 days, but no less. All of this advice is dependent on the size/strength of bier you're making. I'm assuming your making 4.5-5.5% beers. Larger biers take longer, smaller biers can take slightly less time.

I usually leave in secondary for a long time- sometimes I rack again...
Thanks for all the comments! Merry Christmas!

DON'T RACK AGAIN, there is no need for it and good advice is don't do anything to your bier that it doesn't need... it's just asking for problems. Oxidation is very rare in homebrew but can be a problem if you're moving it too much. Since you're patient, let the bier sit in primary for a long time, then if you need to move it for a fermenter rack it... ONCE. Then bottle/keg.

Finally I first mentioned sanitation as the most important aspect of brewing. I'd say make sure you're good on that end, and I'm guessing you are as sanitation mishaps usually result in beer that continues to worsen with age, not get better.

Summary: Ferment in a swamp cooler and pay close attention to your fermentation temps as most ales ferment best in the mid 60s... consistency is important here. Next and VERY IMPORTANT, leave your beer in primary long enough for the yeast to clean up after themselves (14 days) (what they're doing after 4 or 5 days/after primary fermentation). By moving the beer off the yeast too early you're stressing the remaining yeast as they attempt to clean up after themselves, creating off flavors! Pitch the correct amount of yeast unless you're brewing clean American ales all the time, even then it's still good advice. QUIT racking beer unnecessarily.

Good luck and Merry Christmas!
 
dollar for dollar it's probably the best investment you can make for your brewery.

CORRECT!!! Fermentation temp control is of supreme importance. However I think since his off flavors are clearing over time that his chief problem may be moving the bier too soon. If you're moving even a modest beer at 3 days it may not be done fermenting yet creating all kinds of problems.
 
Thought I'd relate this anecdote. I've always been a patient brewer and aside from 'big' biers or brews I want to add flavor/wood/dry hops to never rack. Several years back I was really stressed, really broke (still am), and frustrated with brewing because of time/money constraints. My time issue was that I had a Wee Heavy I'd poured lots of effort into (120 min boil, boiling down the first runnings, long high mash) which was in my primary for over 3 months. At 3.5 months I bottled it straight from the primary. I entered that beer into 3 competitions and it's won it's category in 2 and placed 2nd in another.

Point being the technical reason breweries move their beer so quickly is because of autolysis. However I've never heard of anyone experiencing autolysis in a homebrew environment as the major contributor seems to be head-pressure ie the weight of the hundreds of gallons above the yeast killing it and forcing it's 'dead' flavor into the beer. It just doesn't happen in homebrew, so BE PATIENT! Time is your friend in homebrewing, you already know this because time is cleaning up your current 'average' beer.
 
Thought I'd relate this anecdote. I've always been a patient brewer and aside from 'big' biers or brews I want to add flavor/wood/dry hops to never rack. Several years back I was really stressed, really broke (still am), and frustrated with brewing because of time/money constraints. My time issue was that I had a Wee Heavy I'd poured lots of effort into (120 min boil, boiling down the first runnings, long high mash) which was in my primary for over 3 months. At 3.5 months I bottled it straight from the primary. I entered that beer into 3 competitions and it's won it's category in 2 and placed 2nd in another.

Point being the technical reason breweries move their beer so quickly is because of autolysis. However I've never heard of anyone experiencing autolysis in a homebrew environment as the major contributor seems to be head-pressure ie the weight of the hundreds of gallons above the yeast killing it and forcing it's 'dead' flavor into the beer. It just doesn't happen in homebrew, so BE PATIENT! Time is your friend in homebrewing, you already know this because time is cleaning up your current 'average' beer.

I've had significant autolysis flavors in an apfelwein. However, that stuff had been on the yeast for a year. It certainly can happen in homebrew, it just takes longer.

For the record, I generally primary only and like to leave my beers alone for a while (largely due to laziness!), so I'm not just continuing the whole "secondary" debate... I regularly leave beers in the primary for 3-4 months (and sometimes longer) with no detectable autolysis issues. I'm just pointing out that it can and does happen in homebrew, so it's not something that should just be entirely dismissed.
 
you can use the spring water in gallon containers that are labeled spring, dont use the filling station as they are not spring. and dont use distilled. If you dring tap water and like the taste from tap u can use it, but pre boil it to remove chlorine. That is boil cool and use when ready. :mug:
also- I have experimented with water- have used cheap- bottled drinking or spring water from Wal-Mart lately- figuring that it would be cleaner and clearer than tap ...
 
I usually transfer to secondary after 3-5 days to get it off the lees- thinking that that might be the cause of some of the weird flavors- I usually leave in secondary for a long time- sometimes I rack again... I hate bottling so I put it off for a while- sometimes a month or more- (I know... keg it! Someday...)

I personally would recommend that you skip the secondary and go with a long primary. Contact time with the yeast cake will absolutely not impart off flavors; in face yeast contact will help to eliminate off flavors, since yeast are pretty fastidious creatures and will clean up after themselves (to anthropomorphize a bit). A lot of people on this forum have had great success with skipping secondaries entirely and going with 3-4 week primaries (except maybe in the case of dry hopping or adding fruit, where it's just easier to rack on top of). Regardless of what your take is on secondary-ing or not, though, I'd say try leaving your batches on the yeast longer before racking (whether to secondary or bottles); it may help clean up some of the off flavors.
 
and dont use distilled.
Silly. Distilled is arguably the best.

For extract brews, it (obviously) has a very soft water profile that is great for many styles.

Ditto for all-grain brews, except that the mash water should have a bit of calcium, but that can be added (for a virtually negligible cost per batch) in the form of a tiny bit of calcium chloride. This nets a water profile that is also great for many styles.

These very soft water profiles will be better than spring water for most beers. But it gets better - the beauty of using distilled water is that you can make into whatever kind of water you want it to be, with small mineral additions. You can replicate the mineral profile of any given spring water, but you're not required to settle for it if you don't believe that it is the absolute best possible water for your brew.

So, by starting with distilled water, you give yourself the ability to use the best, most ideal mineral profile possible for ANY AND EVERY single style you could ever want to brew. That makes it a fantastic choice. I'm not saying everybody HAS to use it or that you can't make good beer without distilled water, but telling people specifically not to use it is just utterly ridiculous.
 
I personally would recommend that you skip the secondary and go with a long primary. Contact time with the yeast cake will absolutely not impart off flavors; in face yeast contact will help to eliminate off flavors, since yeast are pretty fastidious creatures and will clean up after themselves (to anthropomorphize a bit). A lot of people on this forum have had great success with skipping secondaries entirely and going with 3-4 week primaries (except maybe in the case of dry hopping or adding fruit, where it's just easier to rack on top of). Regardless of what your take is on secondary-ing or not, though, I'd say try leaving your batches on the yeast longer before racking (whether to secondary or bottles); it may help clean up some of the off flavors.

My beer took a huge jump when I quit transferring to a secondary...I don't even do it when dry hopping.
 
My beer took a huge jump when I quit transferring to a secondary...I don't even do it when dry hopping.

As did mine. I wasn't trying to say you HAVE to secondary if you dry hop; I've just dryhopped in the primary my past two batches. Some people just find it more convenient that trying to cram whole leaf hops through a carboy neck. :D Also, I had heard the argument that the yeast in the cake will bind the hop oils to a certain extent, potentially not giving you quite as much bang for your buck (err, hop); not sure if anyone has rigorously tested it, but it's possible there is a small effect.
 
As did mine. I wasn't trying to say you HAVE to secondary if you dry hop; I've just dryhopped in the primary my past two batches. Some people just find it more convenient that trying to cram whole leaf hops through a carboy neck. :D Also, I had heard the argument that the yeast in the cake will bind the hop oils to a certain extent, potentially not giving you quite as much bang for your buck (err, hop); not sure if anyone has rigorously tested it, but it's possible there is a small effect.

Yeah its really been out of laziness that I haven't transferred, but I'm going to dry hop with 3 or 4 oz on my next batch and I will do a secondary with that one.
 
Yeah its really been out of laziness that I haven't transferred, but I'm going to dry hop with 3 or 4 oz on my next batch and I will do a secondary with that one.

FWIW, I just dryhopped a DIPA with 2.5 oz in 2.5 gallons (so 5 oz for a "normal batch") with no secondary. Came out great, so. :tank:
 
Well then maybe I won't, that's pretty much what I plan on making. Not going to reuse the cake either so...
 
Emjay, my point on autolysis is that under anything approaching normal homebrew conditions it simply isn't an issue. The OP doesn't seem to be in danger of pushing this envelope given his propensity to transfer before a week is up. Autolysis for homebrewers is sort of like the mythical Bigfoot... it may exist and occurs so infrequently that gathering reliable data is an issue.

Fwiw I did a small batch mead where after several months I thought autolysis had set in. Can't remember the specs but it was a 1 gal batch that sat on the yeast for a few months but nothing approaching a year. Oddly enough my head pressure in a 1 gal batch would have been even less than a 5 gal.

^ As for the above, I too dry hop in primary or just do keg hopping! About the only time I break out the carboy is for wood aging and cider/wine.
 
Depends on the brew and the process.

What I've found, is that after I got temperature control I could drink my beer sooner than otherwise, and after 1-3 days it was not too bad

However, I prefer to wait at least 2 weeks before really flipping off the caps. that's when it really hits the spot

However, if your brewing at a improper temerature, you've got to age it like crazy before it gets to be decent

cheers
 
fantastic stuff- thank you! I will try controlling the temp better and not be in such hurry to send it along to secondary

I have been using a plastic bucket to primary- part of my issue is that I wanted into glass quicker- I have never used a glass carboy to primary- had a messy experience with some spewing cider in a carboy- I assume you use a blow-off tube of some kind when you primary in a carboy? seems like such a mess- that is why a nice wide, 7 gallon plastic bucket works well for primary- either way- looking forward to trying these ideas to make my beer drinkable quicker- Thanks!
 
fantastic stuff- thank you! I will try controlling the temp better and not be in such hurry to send it along to secondary

I have been using a plastic bucket to primary- part of my issue is that I wanted into glass quicker- I have never used a glass carboy to primary- had a messy experience with some spewing cider in a carboy- I assume you use a blow-off tube of some kind when you primary in a carboy? seems like such a mess- that is why a nice wide, 7 gallon plastic bucket works well for primary- either way- looking forward to trying these ideas to make my beer drinkable quicker- Thanks!

Don't rush your beer. Racking to secondary is of no benefit 98%+ of the time. If you want to brew another batch, and you don't have any empty primaries/fermenting vessels, then GET SOME MORE... Really easy here. :eek: Especially when you've seen how trying to rush a beer actually makes it take longer before it's worth drinking. I can have a pale ale (under 6%) in keg within 2-3 weeks and in glass 2 weeks after that (slow carbonation method). No racking to another vessel before going to keg (from when it goes to fermenting vessel). Gives me great tasting, clear, brew every time. Bigger/darker beers get longer. With more cooler fermenting temperatures available to me now, I suspect I'll be getting even better beer to the glass. I monitor the temperature of the fermenting beer at least twice a day while it's getting going, then once a day I check on it (take a reading) and then let it rest once done.

Patience is your cheapest, and most valuable tool.
 
I assume you use a blow-off tube of some kind when you primary in a carboy? seems like such a mess- that is why a nice wide, 7 gallon plastic bucket works well for primary

Depends on batch size, carboy size, and beer size. Doing 5 gallon batches in my 6.5 gallon carboy, I've not yet had to use a blow-off tube, but something really big with a true top cropping yeast I might have to. 2.5 gallon batches in my 3 gallon carboy are tighter, but I haven't done anything really krausen-y (that's totally a word, right?) in it yet, so no blow off tubes necessary yet.
 
I'm not sure if anyone else has mentioned this yet, but it depends also on the strength of the brew. When I make a 4.6% ABV beer, it tastes great from grain to glass in just under a month. At around 6%, it starts taking a couple months to really get in the zone.
 
I'm not sure if anyone else has mentioned this yet, but it depends also on the strength of the brew. When I make a 4.6% ABV beer, it tastes great from grain to glass in just under a month. At around 6%, it starts taking a couple months to really get in the zone.

My 6-6.6% brews are typically ready to go to glass within 6-8 weeks (as in carbonated and ready to serve). 6.6-7.4% are usually in the 8-12 week range. Above 7.5%, more aging is typically a good idea. Of course, that all depends on the temperatures it was fermented at. You can easily shave weeks (or months) from aging time if you have better temperature control. It also depends on the yeast you use and how long it takes just to ferment. Anything over about 7% is often aged on some kind of wood for 4-8 weeks (or longer) to get some additional flavor complexities. Is that needed? No, but I like what it gives a brew. :fro:
 
With new recipes I develop a drinking schedule. The higher the ABV the longer I let it last, but I'll drink one or two bottles a week of a new brew until it starts tasting pretty good; then I drink as much as I want, and save about a third for later. When something's about to go I drink as many as I can, but I usually lose a couple of bottles to souring for a new recipe, just to figure out how long it lasts. For a really big brew I'll reserve some for next year, but usually my beers tap out at about 8 months. If you drink a little regularly you can figure out the prime time to drink it, which is totally different from recipe to recipe, and your next batch will peak just when you decide to drink it.
 
charliefoxtrot said:
...When something's about to go I drink as many as I can, but I usually lose a couple of bottles to souring for a new recipe, just to figure out how long it lasts....

Not sure I follow you here, but are you saying you hold onto bottles of each new recipe to find out how long until they go sour? If each batch of yours goes sour, you have a sanitation issue - it is not a recipe thing. If your sanitation is good, your beer will never go sour, no matter how long you leave it. They may lose/change flavor over time, but souring shouldn't happen.
 
Not sure I follow you here, but are you saying you hold onto bottles of each new recipe to find out how long until they go sour? If each batch of yours goes sour, you have a sanitation issue - it is not a recipe thing. If your sanitation is good, your beer will never go sour, no matter how long you leave it. They may lose/change flavor over time, but souring shouldn't happen.

Pretty much any beer will eventually go sour. Even the best sanitation is not sterilization, but the alcohol and hops keep whatever tiny amount of bacteria survives reproducing very slowly. Improper storage (say, in a hot room or car) greatly speeds up the process.

The only thing I've ever had actually turn to vinegar was some under-sulphured plum jerkum after nine months. My lower-gravity beers just get slightly sour after about a year. I've never had a bottle bomb or a gusher, so I don't think there's any sanitation issue, and I've had commercial beers do it too. The biggest problem is the aroma fades and gives it a disappointing flavor by that point.
 
charliefoxtrot said:
Pretty much any beer will eventually go sour. Even the best sanitation is not sterilization, but the alcohol and hops keep whatever tiny amount of bacteria survives reproducing very slowly. Improper storage (say, in a hot room or car) greatly speeds up the process.

The only thing I've ever had actually turn to vinegar was some under-sulphured plum jerkum after nine months. My lower-gravity beers just get slightly sour after about a year. I've never had a bottle bomb or a gusher, so I don't think there's any sanitation issue, and I've had commercial beers do it too. The biggest problem is the aroma fades and gives it a disappointing flavor by that point.

Not saying your wrong cause I really don't know but I've never had anything go sour after aging.
 
Pretty much any beer will eventually go sour. Even the best sanitation is not sterilization, but the alcohol and hops keep whatever tiny amount of bacteria survives reproducing very slowly. Improper storage (say, in a hot room or car) greatly speeds up the process.

The only thing I've ever had actually turn to vinegar was some under-sulphured plum jerkum after nine months. My lower-gravity beers just get slightly sour after about a year. I've never had a bottle bomb or a gusher, so I don't think there's any sanitation issue, and I've had commercial beers do it too. The biggest problem is the aroma fades and gives it a disappointing flavor by that point.

I don't buy it. Going sour means you had an infection, which would not have happened if you properly sanitized. I have had beers that were in bottles for over a year that were NOT sour. If all of yours eventually do sour, then you have an issue someplace.
 
Pretty much any beer will eventually go sour. Even the best sanitation is not sterilization, but the alcohol and hops keep whatever tiny amount of bacteria survives reproducing very slowly. Improper storage (say, in a hot room or car) greatly speeds up the process.

The only thing I've ever had actually turn to vinegar was some under-sulphured plum jerkum after nine months. My lower-gravity beers just get slightly sour after about a year. I've never had a bottle bomb or a gusher, so I don't think there's any sanitation issue, and I've had commercial beers do it too. The biggest problem is the aroma fades and gives it a disappointing flavor by that point.

Forgot to mention that alpha acid breakdown can taste sour, even if there's not one bacterium present.
 
Forgot to mention that alpha acid breakdown can taste sour, even if there's not one bacterium present.

Again, 'sour beer' is an issue with something YOU did. It's not an inevitable conclusion to all beers. Properly brewed, fermented, bottled, stored, and such won't produce negative flavors. There are big beers that age for extended periods without having such flavors. Try a well made big barleywine for instance. There are bottles of several year old batches that are continuing to age without going sour.
 
I don't buy it. Going sour means you had an infection, which would not have happened if you properly sanitized. I have had beers that were in bottles for over a year that were NOT sour. If all of yours eventually do sour, then you have an issue someplace.

It's a slight alteration in the flavor; I'm not saying that it turns into lambic.

I don't know whether it's alpha acid breakdown or bacteria, but in either case my low-abv (3-4%) beers lose their flavor and have an ever so slight tang after a year or so. And this is with literally all of them, so I highly doubt improper sanitation is to blame--everything gets boiled or bleached and I've never seen one other effect of infection.

Also my higher ABV beers last longer, and I doubt the low ABV beers would taste great after a year anyway.
 
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