High FG on Cider?

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MBM30075

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I "brewed" a cider on 8/10.

Ingredients:
************
5 gallons Kroger store brand apple juice
1 tbsp. yeast nutrient
1 packet Nottingham yeast

Had a good fermentation that was vigorous and lasted a LOT longer than I expected. I did this fermentation in a 6 gallon carboy, so I could watch the whole fermentation process. I noticed bubbles coming up out of solution and yeast falling out of suspension for a good 2+ weeks.

I racked after 3 weeks. OG was 1.048. SG @ racking was 1.011.

Based on a lot of what I've heard about straight apple juice cider, I was expecting an SG of more like 0.995 to 1.000.

When I look in the BJCP style guide, though, I see this:

OG range: 1.045 - 1.065
FG range: 1.000 - 1.020

So, I'm kind of confused now. Do I have a stuck fermentation? I've been told to expect near 100% apparent attenuation. Is 77% apparent attenuation acceptable? I'd love that in a beer, but what gives here?

By the way, I did sample a small amount at racking. Taste was good, dry and apple-y. It was slightly raw, but I feel like a few more weeks of aging will result in a quality product. I'm kegging this batch but probably not priming it. I'm thinking about serving it still in a 50/50 ratio with 7Up or Sprite.

Does anyone have some thoughts about where I should go from here?
 
That sounds about right for Notty, I think they advertise on their website that the strain normally attenuates to 75%-80% but the FG is pretty high at 1.011 even for Notty. I've stalled a cider and a high gravity brew with that yeast so I'd let it secondary for a while longer, the racking may have stirred up the yeast well enough to get a few more gravity points out of it yet...

The 50/50 idea is a good one. It'll be some pretty weak cider, even if it reaches 1.008 FG :( That's coming from a university student though ha ha ha. I'm planning on blending 11.5 liters of hard cider (~ 7.5% ABV) with 8 liters of unfermented cider for my Halloween party, so it ought to be around 4.5% at the end, which I consider a bare minimum...
 
You have half of it right...

AJ is about 100% fermentable.

How much sugar gets converted to alcohol is the job of the yeast. Most yeasts are in the 75% range. Since you used a beer yeast 77% is good.

If you want more alcohol you should have added a couple lbs of sugar...corn sugar or table sugar, they both work. I made one batch with 5 gals AJ and 7 lbs of table sugar. It was over 12%, but you would need a yeast that could achieve 12+%

A champagne yeast will definitely take it down under 1.000. Of course, it'll be a higher alcohol percentage and dry.

When you use too many fermentables and your yeast peters out at 8-10% it's the residual sugar that keeps it sweet. ;)
 
A champagne yeast will definitely take it down under 1.000. Of course, it'll be a higher alcohol percentage and dry.

When you use too many fermentables and your yeast peters out at 8-10% it's the residual sugar that keeps it sweet. ;)

I actually like my ciders slightly sweet, but I kill off the yeast, back-sweeten and force-carbonate.
 
Yeah I just bottled my first cider tonight. 1.000 FG dry as heck and a bit sour, which I hear is common from store bought juice. In my opinion count your blessings to have some residual sweetness.
 
I have not used Nottingham, my LHBS does not carry it.
I made up a cider on 20090816 with US-05, fermented at 62F, racked to secondary on 20090823 and set up a "side ferment" of two quarts.
Prompted by this I just took a reading today and a taste of my side ferment. SG 1.001, I mean it is right on the line, adjust for temp.
No off taste, the apple is very faint but I know that will start to come forward with ageing.
Best of luck, in any case you got yourself some cider to enjoy, just give it time.
 
1.011 is quite a bit of residual sugar. I would be worried about some other micro-organism getting in there and fermenting that sugar, you would have to keep it well sulphited and at an even temperature. If the temp rises it may set off a refermentation.
 
Positive. It was actually 1.047 @ 72 = 1.048.

Should I pitch some more yeast on top? I've got a champagne yeast that could finish it off.
 
You have half of it right...

AJ is about 100% fermentable.

How much sugar gets converted to alcohol is the job of the yeast. Most yeasts are in the 75% range. Since you used a beer yeast 77% is good.

He's getting 77% Apparent attenuation, which is usually what we use with beer. You have to remember that the attenuation numbers given by the yeast companies are with typical malt use. Applejuice is much more fermentable than malt, and the yeast is going to eat much more of it.


When you're talking something that has as many fermentation as apple juice, you can get down in the .990 range. Notty took my apfelwein from 1.055 to .995.

Actual attenuation seems to be much more relevant with Apple Juice, and hes only at 60% right now. Give it time.


Honestly, at 1.012, with Notty, I'd be afraid to put it in bottles.
 
Well, I'm not bottling in any case, but I really want to finish this off well.

So, what's the suggestion? Re-pitch with Notty? Pitch champagne on top?
 
I've made about 30 batches of cider with ale yeasts, and at least 5 with notty, and I've never seen anything above a 1.003 Final gravity, so either your hydrometer is broken or you're reading it wrong. Especally when you say this:
By the way, I did sample a small amount at racking. Taste was good, dry and apple-y.

If your final gravity was really 1.011, it wouldn't taste dry at all, but quite sweet, and if you had bugs in there, it wouldn't taste very good, and certianly not very appe-y (I know, I've had a few naturally fermented ciders get some pretty nasty bugs, it takes quite some time for the taste to age out)

The only times I've had stalled cider is when it's a really high gravity due to loads of added sugars (>1.090 or so), or if I didn't add yeast nutrients, and even with the latter, it still finished down to 1.002 in about a month.

RDWHAHB, and let it go for another month or so in the primary if you're really worried, it won't hurt anything to be on the yeast for another month.
 
Well, it's ALREADY in secondary, so I'm not sure it will continue to ferment. I'm not sure I didn't have a stuck ferment for some reason. Is there anything that it will hurt if I throw some more Notty on top?
 
OK, so I pitched another packet of Nottingham on the cider this morning.

When I was racking and taking my gravity reading, I noticed a lot of bubbles kept appearing on my hydrometer. So, I'd spin it to get the bubbles off and re-read. I let the bubbles form for a while before finally trying to get an accurate reading, but it was still 1.011.

So, anyway, I re-pitched this morning, and I'm pretty sure that I still had a TON of CO2 in solution. I don't know how to post a video, but I've got one of my cider almost blowing my airlock off! This happened almost instantaneously after pitching the yeast.

Here's the progression:
1. pitched the dry yeast onto the top of the cider (in a 5 gallon carboy)
2. yeast spreads itself out into a uniform, thin layer on top
3. yeast begins to be hydrated and some pieces start falling into the cider
4. almost immediately, some sort of reaction occurs and gas begins shooting up out of the cider
5. a small layer of foam was created on top of the cider
6. gas was passing through my airlock at a never-before-seen (by me) rate

Anyway, I figure either I need to drive off this CO2, and my cider was actually done, or maybe there's some fermentation left to do. In either case, I'm gonna leave it alone for another week or so and then take another gravity reading.

Cheers!
 
p.s. I have a Cream Ale that didn't quite ferment out enough (1.046 --> 1.011), so I re-pitched some yeast onto it this morning, too, and it had nowhere near the same reaction. That's why I'm guessing there was somehow a lot of CO2 in the cider.

If you want to check out the video, it's the first post at:
West Roswell Brewing
 
A tip for next time is to rehydrate the yeast before pitching, especially if you're trying to restart a stuck fermentation. A bowl of warm water at 35 degrees celsius for 15 minutes, you get a much better start to the fermentation for cider. People going from beer to cider often make this mistake, dry pitching is fine for beer but not best for cider.
 
Repitching was a good move. I've never had a cider finish over 1.000, most of the time 0.995 or so. As you noticed, adding the yeast dry resulting in massive out-gassing. This is just due to the yeast providing nucleation sites for the CO2.
 
Yeah, but was the CO2 in solution the reason for my off reading, or was my off reading an accurate representation? I.e., did I need to get rid of the gas or actually continue fermenting?

Thanks!
 
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