Possible stuck fermentation or other issue(s)

Firstly I'd like to give a big shout out and THANK YOU to hightest as you are a wealth of knowledge and have put a lot of effort into creating and posting the FAQ (its perfect). Sorry that this is a bit of a novel but I'm trying to include as much info as possible.

Back story: Had some mead from a local brewery and loved it - decided to try making my own as I've been brewing beer for a while now and figured it could be a good time. At the time I didn't really want to put much effort into it (I'm now regretting it) and came across the JOAM recipe/thread - read through it and decided it was too easy not to try. I pretty much followed the recipe to a T other than deciding to omit the bread yeast (I thought to myself: why use bread yeast when I can buy something better/meant for alcohol) and use a yeast recommended by the lady at the brew shop I frequent. At the time I didn't really pay attention to what type of yeast it was (stupid me) but it was Red Star brand.

Process: I whipped up 2 batches, one with the regular recipe and the other I substituted about 25-30 blackberries for the raisins and orange. I ended up using about 1.5kg (3.3lbs of honey) per batch along with 3.5L of water. I warmed up the water on the stove in order to help dissolve the honey and added it to the 4L water jug followed by adding all other ingredients. I let it come to room temp (about 70F) shook the piss out of it then pitched the yeast after rehydrating it as per the yeast package instructions (basically just dissolved it in warm water for 15mins) and slapped an airlock on the jugs. I did take a OG reading but being the stupid person I am I didn't pay attention to the exact number but it was somewhere around 1.11

Issues: Since then they've been sitting for 6 days in my house which fluctuates in temp but is generally around 68-69ish. There is some visible signs of fermentation but compared to what I'm used to with beer its extremely low. As far as the airlock is concerned each batch is letting a bubble through the airlock at about 1 ever 20s. I decided to take a reading yesterday and it seems as though neither of them have really changed. I did end up sampling the mead/must that I used for the reading and it tasted like delicious syrup and didn't display any off/bad flavours which I think is a good sign. Also, I didn't notice a very strong yeasty flavour which I would have expected.

Over the course of the week while my must has supposedly been fermenting I've taken more interest into Mead and ended up reading through the FAQ's and the newbie guide on gotmead.com and have since wished I had read them first before proceeding with the JOAM.

In using the calculator (as best as I can figure out) with 3.3lbs of honey and 14.8 cups of water my OG should be around 1.097 (right around what my 1.11 reading that I took before pitching the yeast was). It has been 6 days since I pitched the yeast and neither batch has changed as per the reading I took last night. Is it possible my fermentation is stuck, or maybe my yeast died? Or is this just a relatively slow recipe/process. I know mead takes time and patience which I'm completely willing to give but I guess I'm just worried that I screwed up somewhere along the way and don't want to still have aged syrup in 2 months. Does anyone have any suggestions or thoughts?

Thanks in advance,

Rob

Rob - Thank you for the kind words.

That being said, let me preface my comments by stating that I have never made any of the JAO recipes (nor do I ever intend to) so I have absolutly no experience with those recipes.

Yet (IIRC), the process of making a JAO recipe contradicts many of the tenets written in the Mead FAQs. As such reading them first may not have helped - perhaps, but I'm not sure.

What you're describing is characteristic of a nutrient starved, or low pH, must. I would like to think your yeast substitution did not cause this problem. However, the use of blackberries instead of raisins may have contributed a factor.

As you may know honey (by itself) provides little in the way of nutrients for yeast health. One way of suplementing this nutrient deficit is the use of raisins, fruit juice, etc. Blackberries do not have the same sugar level as do raisins, hence the yeast may be running out of the essential nutrients they require - result sluggish fermentation...

Thanks for the quick response!

hightest said:

That being said, let me preface my comments by stating that I have never made any of the JAO recipes (nor do I ever intend to) so I have absolutly no experience with those recipes.

Yet (IIRC), the process of making a JAO recipe contradicts many of the tenets written in the Mead FAQs. As such reading them first may not have helped - perhaps, but I'm not sure.

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Had I read the FAQ before attempting the JAOM I probably would have realized exactly that and decided 100% against making it for those reasons alone(bold text).

hightest said:

What you're describing is characteristic of a nutrient starved, or low pH, must. I would like to think your yeast substitution did not cause this problem. However, the use of blackberries instead of raisins may have contributed a factor.

As you may know honey (by itself) provides little in the way of nutrients for yeast health. One way of suplementing this nutrient deficit is the use of raisins, fruit juice, etc. Blackberries do not have the same sugar level as do raisins, hence the yeast may be running out of the essential nutrients they require - result sluggish fermentation...

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I figured as much. I'm regretting making the JOAM now but at the time all the other recipes seemed way too complicated for what I wanted to try (after reading the FAQ's, its really not all that complicated at all though...) What are the chances that my yeast has died? Or are they just sitting there in my jug with nothing to grow off of? Is there any way to save these 2 batches as I'm guessing letting them sit how they are is probably not going to get me anywhere? I read through your Stuck Fermentation document which sounds like it could work but I'm guessing thats designed for a 5gallon batch. Do you think my best option to save these 2 batches is to attempt to scale this down to the equivalent of 2 gallons - do its thing and then split the starter in half and add it to each batch respectively?

Also, in just siphoning/thieving a small amount of must out for an OG rating all the fruit, spices, etc. would often clog my siphon tube and make it extremely difficult. After tasting my sample, both batches had quite a nice spice and fruit flavour already. Do you think it would it work to simply pour the must out through a strainer to remove the fruit and proceed with the stuck fermentation plan?

Or should I just leave it be and hope for the best??

I decided to think ahead and call around to the handful of LHB's in my city and disappointingly 5/6 of them had no idea what I was talking about when I asked if they carried Go-Ferm, Superfood or Fermaid-K. 2 of them said they carried a generic yeast nutrient/energizer and when asked for additional details both checked the bottles and confirmed it was DAP.

The only luck I had was with 1 brewery that has Wyeast Nutrient Blend available (Wyeast Laboratories. Brewer's Choice™ Wyeast Nutrient Blend). I know most people on this board are big supporters of Superfood, Fermaid-K etc. but it seems that those options are out of the question at this time.

Thoughts?

robsauce said:

I decided to think ahead and call around to the handful of LHB's in my city and disappointingly 5/6 of them had no idea what I was talking about when I asked if they carried Go-Ferm, Superfood or Fermaid-K. 2 of them said they carried a generic yeast nutrient/energizer and when asked for additional details both checked the bottles and confirmed it was DAP.

The only luck I had was with 1 brewery that has Wyeast Nutrient Blend available (Wyeast Laboratories. Brewer's Choice™ Wyeast Nutrient Blend). I know most people on this board are big supporters of Superfood, Fermaid-K etc. but it seems that those options are out of the question at this time.

Thoughts?

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Then go with the generic stuff, it should work well enough; I've used generic yeast energizer/yeast nutrient/DAP with no problems at all. Some are formulated better than others & some use ingredients that you may not want to use, urea as a source of DAP for instance, but they're better than nothing. Regards, GF.

robsauce said:

...Had I read the FAQ before attempting the JAOM I probably would have realized exactly that and decided 100% against making it for those reasons alone(bold text).

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I was trying to be tactful, as there is a brewing faction that thrives on that recipe. Alas, I'm not one of them...

robsauce said:

The only luck I had was with 1 brewery that has Wyeast Nutrient Blend available. I know most people on this board are big supporters of Superfood, Fermaid-K etc. but it seems that those options are out of the question at this time. Thoughts?

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In this case, go with what you have available, but ensure you also get some DAP in there.

Lastly, just to be clear. It's not so much that I dislike those other brands. What I have a problem with is their reluctance to assure me that they do not use urea (it's cheaper to use than the "good" stuff), and they refuse to say how much YAN their product provides per unit weight added.

I've asked, they remain silent. Consequently, I use (and promote) products that have nothing to hide and readily disclose that information.

I have the same problem as others in that no LHBS stores stock what I want. So I get my nutrients from Austin Homebrew (TX).

Thanks for all the advice.

I think my plan is to purchase the Wyeast nutrients along with some DAP and simply use the Wyeast nutrients in place of Superfood in your stuck fermentation instructions. I'm assuming your Stuck fermentation instructions are designed for 5 gallons. Seeing as I only have 2 gallons (2 x 1gallon) would it make sense to cut the measurements in half(for easy of numbers) and then once the starter is fermented/active add half to each respective batch? For clarification, I would end up only using:
1 package of yeast (rehydrated)
3 cups of water
1/8 tsp of each nutrient and DAP
40mL of honey

I guess the only issue I'll have is I have 2 different batches going so adding must from only one would leave me with significantly less end product...Maybe I'll alternate using each? LOL...this is turning out to be a pretty ghetto home brew attempt

Yes, the SNA FAQ is based on 5-gallon batch. The Mead calculator spreadsheet automatically adjusts the amounts based on the recipe batch size.

Going back to the #2 post; I would've thought something like the addition of potassium carbonate would come to light here as a means of increasing a low pH and getting things going
Reasonable or not?

petes said:

Going back to the #2 post; I would've thought something like the addition of potassium carbonate would come to light here as a means of increasing a low pH and getting things going
Reasonable or not?

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It would if I had some assurance that low pH was a reasonable possibility. However, seeing as this is a JAO type recipe, I'm not so sure that is the issue, and rather that use a 'shotgun' approach I opted for what seemed the more likely problem - even though I've no experience with JAO recipes.

Well maybe I was a bit to hasty to post about my supposed problem. I went ahead and made up a half batch of the starter (3cups of liquid total) which after only 5 hours has just as much foam and head on it as there is liquid in my 1.5L jar (with airlock of course). I'm scared to go to bed only to wake up in the morning to find it has exploded.

But, some potentially good news, at the same time of making the starter I took a SG reading of the 2 batches. The blackberry batch is currently sitting at 1.094 and the orange batch is at 1.091 which is a definite change from the 1.1 - 1.11 that they started at.

I'm wondering if I will need that the starter at all...or maybe I just need a small amount?

robsauce said:

Well maybe I was a bit to hasty to post about my supposed problem... The blackberry batch is currently sitting at 1.094 and the orange batch is at 1.091 which is a definite change from the 1.1 - 1.11 that they started at.

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I wouldn't beat yourself up too much. After 6+ days, I would expect a new mead's SG to be much lower than what you have reported.

Besides the example fermentation charts in the FAQ, my present batch started at 1.123, and after 4 days it dropped 76 points to 1.047 and is still actively fermenting. Ambient area temp is 65°F.

What you described in your initial post was not a healthy fermentation. IMO, your cause for concern was valid.

I've got a very similar issue. I made a basic mead, 1 gallon w/ 3 lbs of honey. I couldn't find Go-Ferm so I just rehydrated champagne yeast in warm water and then pitched. I did all this on 1/18. OG of 1.115. I checked yesterday and its only down to 1.050. I did the initial nutrient addition and got the expected foaming. Since then the SG has been dropping very slowly. I've been regularly rousting the yeast by spinning the bottle and I'm still a long way from finishing. I'm right at the second nutrient addition but I expected to be much farther 3 weeks into fermentation. Would increasing the size of the nutrient addition help?

Thanks

johnnyc said:

I've got a very similar issue. I made a basic mead, 1 gallon w/ 3 lbs of honey. I couldn't find Go-Ferm so I just rehydrated champagne yeast in warm water and then pitched.

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That should not be a problem, depending upon how you determined "warm" - should be less than 104°F. Also the temperature difference between the yeast and must should be <10°F.

I did all this on 1/18. OG of 1.115. I checked yesterday and its only down to 1.050.

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What is the area temp?

What type of nutrients did you use? Did you verify the yeast was not past its "best used by" date?

hightest said:

That should not be a problem, depending upon how you determined "warm" - should be less than 104°F. Also the temperature difference between the yeast and must should be <10°F.What is the area temp?

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I cooled the boiled water that I rehydrated the yeast in to lukewarm, but I didn't use a thermometer. The yeast pitch temp and must temp were close, I let the must cool before adding the yeast.

Initially it was in a closet in the low 60s but when the weather changed I moved it and now its 68-70. Its been at this temp for about 2 weeks.

hightest said:

What type of nutrients did you use? Did you verify the yeast was not past its "best used by" date?

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I used a generic granulated "yeast nutrient" as well as a fine powder that contained DAP. As for the yeast I honestly didn't check the date.

Another couple questions, is aeration as important in wines/meads as it is in beer? I know boiling wort releases most of the oxygen so you have to reincorporate air. At the same time since it doesn't contain hops it shouldn't be as affected by light, correct?

Thx for the help

It is quite difficult to point to any particular item as a likely problem source - especially when there are so many parameters that are not specifically known. Yours could be a low yeast population for reasons unknown, low must pH, inadequate YAN resulting from generic "nutrient" use, etc.

Regarding aeration, it is helpful, but not essential when the must OG is <1.130.

Increasing the amount of nutrient later in the fermentation process is not necessarily a good thing either. The SNA amounts are designed to be added at certain points in the yeast life cycle - most of it before the 50% sugar break. Your must has past that point at over 66%.

By example, let me share how your must should be acting with the parameters from a batch I started on 2/2/09: Traditional mead, OG 1.123, with 3g KHCO3, R2 yeast, properly rehydrated. After 6 days (amb. temp 65°F), the SG is 1.027 - a drop of 96+ points, and it's still going. No aeration other than the mixing action during SNAs.

The process I use works well and I do not shortcut any step. I measure everything, pay attention to detail, and I never use nutrients other than Fermaid-K (years ago I used Superfood), Go-Ferm, & DAP.

I didn't provide that example to make you feel bad. Instead, to illustrate that a proven process works successully time & time again (well at least for over 15 years...)

hightest said:

It is quite difficult to point to any particular item as a likely problem source - especially when there are so many parameters that are not specifically known. Yours could be a low yeast population for reasons unknown, low must pH, inadequate YAN resulting from generic "nutrient" use, etc.

Regarding aeration, it is helpful, but not essential when the must OG is <1.130.

Increasing the amount of nutrient later in the fermentation process is not necessarily a good thing either. The SNA amounts are designed to be added at certain points in the yeast life cycle - most of it before the 50% sugar break. Your must has past that point at over 66%.

By example, let me share how your must should be acting with the parameters from a batch I started on 2/2/09: Traditional mead, OG 1.123, with 3g KHCO3, R2 yeast, properly rehydrated. After 6 days (amb. temp 65°F), the SG is 1.027 - a drop of 96+ points, and it's still going. No aeration other than the mixing action during SNAs.

The process I use works well and I do not shortcut any step. I measure everything, pay attention to detail, and I never use nutrients other than Fermaid-K (years ago I used Superfood), Go-Ferm, & DAP.

I didn't provide that example to make you feel bad. Instead, to illustrate that a proven process works successully time & time again (well at least for over 15 years...)

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No offense taken and I would have used more specific additives if my LHBS supplied them. Since this was only a 1 gallon batch I'm not out anything but the 3 lbs of honey. (That's why I did such a small batch in the first place) Do you think it'd be worthwhile to create a starter and try to restart this one?

johnnyc said:

No offense taken and I would have used more specific additives if my LHBS supplied them. Since this was only a 1 gallon batch I'm not out anything but the 3 lbs of honey. (That's why I did such a small batch in the first place) Do you think it'd be worthwhile to create a starter and try to restart this one?

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Are you sure it has stopped fermenting? Have SG readings over the past 3-4 days been relatively constant?

If so, then using a starter may be the best choice.