Who leaves the lid loose on the fermenter

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Mookie

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I typically do 5.5 gallon batches in a 6.5 gallon plastic fermentation bucket. I have had several batches that the krausen gets up to the lid and blows off a little bit.

My last batch, I decided to just set the lid lose on the top of the bucket to avoid the possibility of a messy situation in the event my blowoff would get plugged. I had a little bit of juice push out of the top of the lid which I expected. Once the krausen settled, I snapped the lid tight and put airlock in place. I really liked the fact that I could leave the house and not be worried about coming home to a mess.

Does anyone else do this? It seems like a simple idea. Anyone know of any drawbacks to doing this?

Thanks,

Mookie
 
I routinely leave the lids loose on my fermentation buckets. I just set the lids on top to cover the entire opening but I don't snap them on. No issues so far and it's much easier to access the beer for dry hopping, etc.
 
A lot of people will sometimes ferment without a lid or anything else covering the beer (open fermentation). It just requires a lot more attention, skimming the krausen to get rid of nasties and such.

EDIT: I should note that open fermentation only lasts a few days at most. Once the production of co2 has stopped, the lid gets snapped on.
 
Get an airlock. If anything can get out, nasties can get in.

Nope, if co2 is getting out, NOTHING can get it. Besides the "nasties" are not ninja acrobats, they really can't get in through crevices and such.

Mookie, A lot of folks don't snap the lid down at all at all. In fact many folks with arthitis and other issues don't anyway, and may folks just put tinfoil, plastic wrap, metal cookie sheets or even plexiglass sheets on top of the bucket instead. It's really not crucial to be tight.

Homercidal posted the other day that he was just at a commercial brewery in Traverse City where they FERMENT their beer with plastic wrap on top of the fermentation vessels. And one of our mods posted recently that he just uses loose fitting lids on his fermenters.
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I brewed today and it's doing this as we speak. Done it before, never had an issue. In fact, the first kits I bought recommended that. Of course, it makes it way easier to be tempted to open it up and take a peek!
 
I don't do it routinely, but I do it from time to time. Right now, I have two beers fermenting with tops merely sitting on the bucket.

I sanitize everything, but definitely don't go overboard with it. Unless your brewing environment is dirty or contaminated in some way, you'd be surprised what you can get away with and still be fine. I've NEVER had anything close to an infection in 5 years of brewing (unless I did it on purpose of course ;)).
 
howabouttheiris said:
Get an airlock. If anything can get out, nasties can get in.

Not really. The nasties you speak of don't have legs. Bacteria and wild yeasts rely on airflow to move. As long as the lid covers the bucket, nothing is gonna get in.

Unless of course you have a cockroach problem. Then you're screwed.
 
Revvy said:
Nope, if co2 is getting out, NOTHING can get it. Besides the "nasties" are not ninja acrobats, they really can't get in through crevices and such.

Mookie, A lot of folks don't snap the lid down at all at all. In fact many folks with arthitis and other issues don't anyway, and may folks just put tinfoil, plastic wrap, metal cookie sheets or even plexiglass sheets on top of the bucket instead. It's really not crucial to be tight.

Homercidal posted the other day that he was just at a commercial brewery in Traverse City where they FERMENT their beer with plastic wrap on top of the fermentation vessels. And one of our mods posted recently that he just uses loose fitting lids on his fermenters.
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Right Brain uses plastic wrap to cover the fermentors? How weird. Then again, most of what they do is "weird" by most folk's standards! ;-)
 
A few commercial breweries do exactly what you are talking about and ferment in an open vessel until the end of high krausen. They believe as long as C02 is escaping nothing can contaminate the beer. It is also believed that due to the active yeast volume and alcohol being created no rogue organisms can survive.

As true as this may be, I personally choose not to practice this method. Everything I do as far as brewing is done in a clean room and only closed fermentations and closed transfers take place.

I am very paranoid about an infected batch of beer, and so this has become my practice.

By the way when I say "infected" I am not referring to an awful unsinkable beer, but rather anything whether it be a faint odd smell or the slightest off flavor. Those two symptoms as well as what's often times referred to as a "house flavor" will usually result in a judge knocking down the score of one's beer due to an off flavor or infection.
 
On this note, I'd imagine oxidation would become a concern if one were to leave the lid loose for extended periods of time. Anyone how long that would take? Weeks? Months?
 
Thanks for the reply's from all. I did not think that I was the first Einstein to do this, but I had to check.

My future will probably involve getting a larger fermentation bucket, but for now I will do this. I really liked the idea of using plexiglass for a cover. I have easy access to a ton of that and it would be cool to watch the first day or so, then put the lid on with an airlock. I really kinda miss the days that I used to use a carboy and watch the action inside, but a bucked is so much easier to handle and clean.

Thanks to all,

Mookie
 
When I worked at Bell's (then known as Kalamazoo Brewing CO.) in '89-'90 or so, the tanks were what I would refer to as "semi-open"... basically, they had loose fitting, hinged lids. They had small vents, about 5" around that would allow the CO2 to escape, the vent hole would have a loose sheet of Saran wrap over it. We would open the lid to top crop the yeast for pitching into the the yeast propagation tanks, which would hold 1bbl. They were covered with Saran wrap. Worked like a champ.
 
On this note, I'd imagine oxidation would become a concern if one were to leave the lid loose for extended periods of time. Anyone how long that would take? Weeks? Months?

I'd worry about it once fermentation has ceased, but not during. As a few people have said, CO2 outflow will keep anything from getting in, including O2.
 
Airborneguy said:
I'd worry about it once fermentation has ceased, but not during. As a few people have said, CO2 outflow will keep anything from getting in, including O2.

Yeah, that was my thinking too. Probably be fine until active fermentation stops, and allows the O2 to diffuse in. Probably a week or two at least
 
With some yeast strains, it is purportedly beneficial to leave the lid open, like with ringwood. Apparently it performs better this way (?due to lowered pressures?). I've only used ringwood once and did so with the top loose. I got good results but I can't comment on how much of a difference it made.
 
One concern is that, if your beer isn't cooled to room temperature when you put it in the fermenter, the process of cooling will result in unsanitary air from outside the fermenter being sucked in. I'd personally want to avoid that; maybe buy a larger fermenter, or make less beer in each batch. . .
 
One concern is that, if your beer isn't cooled to room temperature when you put it in the fermenter, the process of cooling will result in unsanitary air from outside the fermenter being sucked in. I'd personally want to avoid that; maybe buy a larger fermenter, or make less beer in each batch. . .

More than likely if that were truly the case, as it cools it would more than likely form a tighter bond with the bucket...just like suckback from an airlock or a vacuum forming in canning as it cools, or doing no0chill brewing in an aquatainer. . Things don't expand when they cool, they contract, you would actually have a safer lid/bucket connection if that were the case.
 
More than likely if that were truly the case, as it cools it would more than likely form a tighter bond with the bucket...just like suckback from an airlock or a vacuum forming in canning as it cools, or doing no0chill brewing in an aquatainer. . Things don't expand when they cool, they contract, you would actually have a safer lid/bucket connection if that were the case.

They probably fell asleep during chemistry class when the teacher was explaining the ideal gas law and missed out on the whole pressure, temperature, volume relationship.
 
They probably fell asleep during chemistry class when the teacher was explaining the ideal gas law and missed out on the whole pressure, temperature, volume relationship.

Yeah.

I think some folks are so freaked out still about brewing that they come up with all these fear rationalizations for not wanting to do something that we have shown on this thread and others that folks do all the time, both on the homebrewer scale, AND commercially.
 
yeah.

I think some folks are so freaked out still about brewing that they come up with all these fear rationalizations for not wanting to do something that we have shown on this thread and others that folks do all the time, both on the homebrewer scale, and commercially.

this ^^^
 
Not really. The nasties you speak of don't have legs. Bacteria and wild yeasts rely on airflow to move. As long as the lid covers the bucket, nothing is gonna get in.

Unless of course you have a cockroach problem. Then you're screwed.

Fruit flies have legs, though :)

Summer's about the only time that I snap down my lids on buckets and use airlocks on my carboys instead of foil. I used to be rather nonchalant about it, but discovered this summer that with enough resilience, they can apparently get to where they really want to go. Not saying anyone should become paranoid - just relating my own experience.
 
They probably fell asleep during chemistry class when the teacher was explaining the ideal gas law and missed out on the whole pressure, temperature, volume relationship.

When the air inside the fermenter cools it will contract, creating lower pressure and causing air from the outside to be pulled in. I'm not sure what you don't get about that. . .

as it cools it would more than likely form a tighter bond with the bucket

That's only true if both the lid and the the rim of the bucket were perfectly flat. If you've brewed more than once, or if you've flexed your lid to fit it into another bucket to sanitize it, then they almost certainly aren't.

I think some folks are so freaked out still about brewing that they come up with all these fear rationalizations for not wanting to do something that we have shown on this thread and others that folks do all the time, both on the homebrewer scale, AND commercially.

I've seen a lot of open fermenters commercially, and they (sometimes) get great results. Anchor does that, I think. I also have brewed a couple of beers in open fermenters, and I've gotten good results from them too.

Neither the commercial brewers nor I, however, are asking questions in a "Beginner's Beer Brewing Forum," where novice brewers are still discovering how their fermenters behave in various rooms of their house, garage, basement, or closets. As PseudoChef points out, insects are a problem to consider if you're going to leave the lid of your fermenter off. So is the effect the decreased osmotic pressure will have on your yeast character, and yes, sanitation.

The fact that a technique will work and even produce good results doesn't automatically mean that it is always preferred or desirable, and telling beginning brewers that "anything goes" is not something that I, when I was just getting started out, would have found helpful.
 
Yeah.

I think some folks are so freaked out still about brewing that they come up with all these fear rationalizations for not wanting to do something that we have shown on this thread and others that folks do all the time, both on the homebrewer scale, AND commercially.

I sorta blame Palmer for a lot of this fear of contamination. After reading his book, I was really paranoid about it.

Since reading a lot of this board (and applying my own common sense) I realize that there is not much to worry about. That doesn't mean I'm not careful about sanitizing (because I am) but I realize as long as I take certain simple, common-sense steps to avoid contamination, it probably ain't gonna happen.
 
I either ferment with the lid loose or I just leave it off completely.

However, I also ferment inside a dedicated chamber that is fully sanitiozed prior to service.
 
I sorta blame Palmer for a lot of this fear of contamination. After reading his book, I was really paranoid about it.

I've complained about that for years as well. He seemed to focus on all the "worst case scenarios," and freaked out an entire generation of brewers- He went I think into too much detail about all the boogeymen, HSA, Autolysis, yadda yadda yadda, without actually getting into how rare it really is. And folks just tended to glom onto the fear.

And every day we have to pick up the pieces hundreds of times a day of freaked out new brewers. Or the "vs" people who can't get their head around the idea that there are multiple ways of doing things that one thing, be it, plastic or glass, batch or fly sparging, or anything else that can be asked as a -vs-, is no better or worse than another thing, it's just a different and equally valid way of doing things...just like this, folks bristle at the idea that folks may not snap the lid down, or use plexiglass or tinfoil, or whatever.

It's funny, you have Papazian in the 60's and 70's with the very hippie, rdwhahb ethic, just lay back, let the process happen and everything will be fine. Then you have the next generation, Generation Palmer, that totally focuses on and worries about the negative, and seems to delve into absolutes.

And I think the kind of brewer you are has a lot to do with which book you read first. I read Papazian and was told repeatedly to relax....So that's the attitude I took from day 1, and you know it hasn't proven me wrong yet...nor has it a lot of brewers.
 
A few commercial breweries do exactly what you are talking about and ferment in an open vessel until the end of high krausen. They believe as long as C02 is escaping nothing can contaminate the beer. It is also believed that due to the active yeast volume and alcohol being created no rogue organisms can survive.

As true as this may be, I personally choose not to practice this method. Everything I do as far as brewing is done in a clean room and only closed fermentations and closed transfers take place.

I am very paranoid about an infected batch of beer, and so this has become my practice.

By the way when I say "infected" I am not referring to an awful unsinkable beer, but rather anything whether it be a faint odd smell or the slightest off flavor. Those two symptoms as well as what's often times referred to as a "house flavor" will usually result in a judge knocking down the score of one's beer due to an off flavor or infection.

:D just busting your balls a little bit.
 
...I think the kind of brewer you are has a lot to do with which book you read first. I read Papazian and was told repeatedly to relax....So that's the attitude I took from day 1, and you know it hasn't proven me wrong yet...nor has it a lot of brewers.

Agreed... People knock C.P.'s book as being too simplistic, but some damn good brewers learned from it. I have never been in a commercial brewery that didn't have it in their library.

I learned a lot from his RDWHAHB attitude, and have seen it in practice in some very well known breweries. In fact, IME, those are the places making the best beer...
 
That's only true if both the lid and the the rim of the bucket were perfectly flat. If you've brewed more than once, or if you've flexed your lid to fit it into another bucket to sanitize it, then they almost certainly aren't.

If you've done what is in the bolded statement, you might as well throw away that bucket. I'm sure that lid put a nice, big, microbe-sheltering scratch in there.
 
I've complained about that for years as well. He seemed to focus on all the "worst case scenarios," and freaked out an entire generation of brewers- He went I think into too much detail about all the boogeymen, HSA, Autolysis, yadda yadda yadda, without actually getting into how rare it really is. And folks just tended to glom onto the fear.

And every day we have to pick up the pieces hundreds of times a day of freaked out new brewers. Or the "vs" people who can't get their head around the idea that there are multiple ways of doing things that one thing, be it, plastic or glass, batch or fly sparging, or anything else that can be asked as a -vs-, is no better or worse than another thing, it's just a different and equally valid way of doing things...just like this, folks bristle at the idea that folks may not snap the lid down, or use plexiglass or tinfoil, or whatever.

It's funny, you have Papazian in the 60's and 70's with the very hippie, rdwhahb ethic, just lay back, let the process happen and everything will be fine. Then you have the next generation, Generation Palmer, that totally focuses on and worries about the negative, and seems to delve into absolutes.

And I think the kind of brewer you are has a lot to do with which book you read first. I read Papazian and was told repeatedly to relax....So that's the attitude I took from day 1, and you know it hasn't proven me wrong yet...nor has it a lot of brewers.

Amen, brother! I read C. Pap first and I'm generally quite relaxed about brewing. I engage in normal, sane sanitation practices and am only really adminant about treating my equipment well so it lasts a long long time.
 
I use a pillow case to cover my fermentor when i am doing wine. It lets O2 in and keeps stuff from getting in. Works great and i have never had any issues. I go to an airlock around 1.20 SG or so, when fermentation slows.
 
Amen, brother! I read C. Pap first and I'm generally quite relaxed about brewing. I engage in normal, sane sanitation practices and am only really adminant about treating my equipment well so it lasts a long long time.

I started thsi thread in jest 3 years ago, but I think it bares zombifying...

Which Brewer are you?
 
When the air inside the fermenter cools it will condense, creating lower pressure and causing air from the outside to be pulled in. I'm not sure what you don't get about that. . .

Fixed and Yes.

But the CO2 is and will always be (so long as their is no signifigant disturbance to airflow within the vessel) heavier than the air that is drawn in and thus will remain stratified as an effective blanket against Oxidative gases.

And, unless you are dropping it into a cryo tank the cooling will take place so gradually (if not restricted by a vacuum creating seal) that it would not "suck" anything in but rather simply displace the volume. since there would be no air current to carry any pathogens into the buckety they would simply drop beyond the open edge.

In fact, if there were any realistic issue as you are suggesting then an airlock would be no safer a solution as pathogens would be just aseasily drawn into the airlock and potentially sucked into the vessle in the same manner. Unless, of course, the airlock were filled with a sanitizing solution.
 
It's funny, you have Papazian in the 60's and 70's with the very hippie, rdwhahb ethic, just lay back, let the process happen and everything will be fine. Then you have the next generation, Generation Palmer, that totally focuses on and worries about the negative, and seems to delve into absolutes.

And I think the kind of brewer you are has a lot to do with which book you read first. I read Papazian and was told repeatedly to relax....So that's the attitude I took from day 1, and you know it hasn't proven me wrong yet...nor has it a lot of brewers.

I've pretty much read all of Palmer's book I am going to now. I skipped a lot of the stuff about all-grain, but I may go back when (if) I decide to move up to doing that.

I'm interested in reading other brewing books though. Would Papazian be a good place to go next, or would I be better off picking up something like Brewing Classic Styles or Designing Great Beers?
 
I've pretty much read all of Palmer's book I am going to now. I skipped a lot of the stuff about all-grain, but I may go back when (if) I decide to move up to doing that.

I'm interested in reading other brewing books though. Would Papazian be a good place to go next, or would I be better off picking up something like Brewing Classic Styles or Designing Great Beers?

DGB, while dated, is a great book with none stigmatism inferred in the context.
 
I have routinely used Saran wrap spread over the surface of my red wines when I need a few days between fermentation and pressing. I generally lay down a layer of CO2 and put a loose lid on it.

I CO2 purge/top all of my carboys and buckets (wine and beer). It's very cheap insurance against oxidation. I fill until a lighter flame extinguishes at the lip of the vessel then SLIDE the lid/airlock on, this minimizes the disturbance of the blanket.

Oxidation is insidious in white wine making and I have just adopted most of those practices into beer making as well.
 
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