20, 30, 45 min. hop additions. Why??

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seanppp

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I am having trouble understanding hop additions that are not very early or very late. Hops provide three things

1. Bittering
2. Flavor
3. Aroma

-The best utilization for hop bittering is early additions (high bittering utilization, no Flavor+Aroma)
-The best utilization for hop F+A is late additions, since those compounds are volatile and evaporate away the longer they are boiled (little bittering, high Flavor+Aroma).

But when you add hops at 20, 30, 45 minutes, ie in the "middle" of the process, it seems to me that you are not extracting the most AAs you can out of the hop, and you are boiling away a lot of the Flavor+Aroma! Seems like a waste of hops. Why not just keep to early and late hopping? Would you get more out of your hops that way?

Obviously there are a lot of brewers smarter than me who do it, so I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm just trying to figure out why it's done. Doesn't make any sense to me.
 
Personally, most of my hop additions are at least 60 minutes or 15 minutes and under, but I would suspect that you still are getting a decent amount of flavor. Maybe bridging the gap between aroma and bittering. I just see time as a kind of gradient between the 3. Perhaps if you don't want too much more bitterness, but you want to also add some flavor, so you go for 25 minutes...etc. Also, you may have a really high alpha acid hop, like warrior, that doesn't impart much flavor when used around 60 minutes. So you only need to use a small amount, but you also want some flavor, so you throw in a little cascade in that middle boil time zone.
 
Also, you may have a really high alpha acid hop, like warrior, that doesn't impart much flavor when used around 60 minutes. So you only need to use a small amount, but you also want some flavor, so you throw in a little cascade in that middle boil time zone.[\QUOTE]

But in that case, why not use less Cascade later in the boil? You'll get the same flavor contribution but with less hops.
Click to expand...
 
For the most part, yes, I agree. A lot of pro brews are now simply bittering at start of boil and late whirlpool additions. I believe the reality is that there are different flavors imparted by the hops with some cooking off more quickly than others (with the "aroma" characteristics being the most volatile/short lived). The flavor should be expected to be different between a 60, 30, 0 min scenario vs. a 60, 0 min scenario. Now, how different and is it worth it should depend on the hop or more likely the hop combination. I have not done any specific side by side testing myself so its difficult to gauge the effect, but this would be my expectation.
 
I wish it were so black and white.

Folks are experimenting with adding hops at any stage of the brew: Mash, First wort, boil, mid-boil, end of boil, whirlpool, steep, dry. (I think that covers it). I don't think it's as easy as "early is bittering, late is flavour/aroma." Hops react differently in different temperatures and durations of those temps.

I used to be in the mind set of only early and late additions but started adding hops around 15-20 minutes before the end of boil and I like it. Just experiment and see what works or see what changes they impart... There is no wrong.
 
THanks pcollins. Could you tell me what that character of an "intermediate" hopped beer is as compared with a "early+late" hopped beer? If there is indeed a unique character to intermediate hopping I will start to do it more often. But thusfar I can't pinpoint anything.
 
I FWH or 60 mins, then my next addition is at 20 because that time adds the most flavor according to the info I've seen. I finish with a 5 or flameout addition and a dry hop. My PAs and IPAs have lots of flavor and aroma.
 
The only time I will throw hops in at varying times from the normal 60,15,5 is if I'm following a recipe, looking for a certain amount of IBU,s, or if the AA% is greatly different than the amount used in the original recipe. If the recipe called for 10AA% hops at 60 and the hops I picked up were 15 instead of using less I will just move forward the pitching time of those hops until the IBUs are closer to that of the original recipe.
 
I wouldn't say the bittering hops provide no flavor- as they do. If you use a hop variety like chinook or columbus vs tettnanger for bittering, as an example, I know you could pick out the difference. It might be in the harshness or in the finish, but you'll know the difference.

But overall, for most beers I do a FHW or 60 minute/15/0 schedule for hops.

For a hop-forward beer like an IPA, I'll go with FWH/15/10/5/0/dryhop schedule.

I almost never do 30 minute, 45 minute, or 20 minute additions.
 
for pale ales, which is most of what i brew, i do a 60 min for 20-30 IBU, a 5 min, then a 15 min hop stand. the late additions vary as to how many IBUs are in the finished beer but i usually try for 50-70 IBU. i get so much more flavor and aroma and the quality of the bitterness is very pleasing.
 
I get quite a bit of flavor form a 15, a good amount from a 20 and a little from a 30. I guess it depends on what your trying to do with that hop.

I get the best aroma form a 1. Dry hops work good too. But for some styles I much prefer the 1. I don't get grassy or astringent from it.

All this can change drastically form one brewery to another.
 
I've been noticing a lot of pro recipes that use 30 min additions lately. Also, I was listening to a brewing network podcast, and they were interviewing a brewer who used additions like 20/15/10/5/0. Tasty mentioned that additions at those times were "like a homebrew recipe". I have no idea what that means, but contrast that to the many 30 minute additions I've seen recently, and it makes me curious....

Also, I was just reading about "The Perfect Pale Ale", the DVD by Matt Brynildson from Firestone Walker. In it, he evidently suggests the use of a 30 minute addition to add "hop body". Not exactly sure what that means, maybe someone who has the video can chime in?
 
tgmartin000 said:
Tasty mentioned that additions at those times were "like a homebrew recipe". I have no idea what that means, but contrast that to the many 30 minute additions I've seen recently, and it makes me curious....
Click to expand...

I'm sure he means that so many hop additions is more work than large scale pros prefer. Fewer is more efficient.
 
The brewing network, at one point, talked to Colin Kaminsky a hop guru about why he has a 0 minute hop addition in his pale ale. He went to some length and used really big words to essentially say you can get a 'hop sweetness' that is pleasing from a 30 minute addition. It is another tool in the flavor creation arsenal. I can't be the only one who heard that, so someone back me up. It may have also been covered on the new DVD out from the Brewing Network that covers the pale ale style. Anyone seen it?
 
I tend to agree with you in practice OP. The more pros I have a chance to chat with, however the more confused I am. Russian River uses mid boil additions in most, if not all, of their hop forward beers.

I was chatting with a brewer at heavy seas yesterday and the schedule for loose cannon is 90, 60, 30, hop back, dry hop. Which kinda blew my mind, BTW.

He used to brew at terrapin and confirmed it was a similar schedule to hopsecutioner but they use a 5 minute as well.

I've started to play with them recently, but no findings of note as of yet.
 
Sometimes I use mid-boil hops because I want to use a mid to high AA hop but don't want high IBUs. So I put some at 60 and 40 or 30 or 20 to use all of the ounce up and dilute the bitterness. I mean, there's not much point in hanging onto 0.3oz of Northern Brewer and I don't want to hop burst with it in a stout or IRA.

Other times I'm using a single hop that is good for bittering, flavor, and aroma additions. So to get a spectrum of flavors from it, I'll use it at 60, 45, 30, 15, 5, and flameout. IMO if you cut out the 45 and the 30, it won't have as "complete" a flavor.
 
strambo said:
I FWH or 60 mins, then my next addition is at 20 because that time adds the most flavor according to the info I've seen. I finish with a 5 or flameout addition and a dry hop. My PAs and IPAs have lots of flavor and aroma.
Click to expand...

This is what I've been experimenting with lately with my IPA's. Usually FWH, 20 min addition then a large FO hop stand for 30 min with the lid on. My next brew I'm going to take some of the FO and move to a 5 min to see if there's a difference.
 
seanppp said:
Also, you may have a really high alpha acid hop, like warrior, that doesn't impart much flavor when used around 60 minutes. So you only need to use a small amount, but you also want some flavor, so you throw in a little cascade in that middle boil time zone.[\QUOTE]

But in that case, why not use less Cascade later in the boil? You'll get the same flavor contribution but with less hops.
Click to expand...

You won't get as much bitterness, though. I suspect some compounds are more volatile than others, and thus theoretically would leave a different mix of chemicals behind in the beer. The only time I really use those mid-boil additions is when I'm not doing a 60 minute addition at all, which leads to a beer that has some bitterness but very little harshness. Worked pretty nicely in an Irish Red I made last fall. A smoother bitterness I guess you could say. But yeah, for the most part I don't use mid-boil additions.
Click to expand...
 

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