Why doesn't everyone just BIAB?

OK, so I figured I'd start a thread/discussion on why more people don't just BIAB. I also wanted to get a feel for what percentage of people here on HBT brew using BIAB.

So, this mainly stems from a discussion with my manager at work and my SWMBO at home about the BIAB brewing process. And they both separately asked, "If it's so easy, why doesn't everyone just BIAB?"

I figured I'd start a discussion on this to see what people had to say about it. Now let me preface by saying that I am in no way a seasoned brewer with hundreds of brews under my belt, but I feel that I have a pretty good grasp on this "brewing" thing. Also, I have never brewed with the traditional 3 vessel system. I also want to mention that this site is a huge source of information for me and a lot of other brewers. Brewers have their own way of brewing and that's cool. To me, it's a lot like religion: I'm all up for discussing and sharing differing views, but don't get up in my face or get violent about it...

Just wanted to add a link to the post that I found to be very informative about BIAB for those who may not know what it is: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/biab-brewing-pics-233289/

Let me start by saying that I know the most common arguments for and against BIAB and I thought I'd list some to get the discussion rolling:

1. Clarity - People may say that you won't get a clear beer from BIAB. To that I say, NAY!! While the WORT may be cloudier from the extra trub, i.e. "grain dust", it will settle out and you will get clear beer. I know this from experience. I've read people winning Lager categories at competitions using BIAB. There's nothing that time and a nice cold crash won't clear. The only negative that I see is that the use of a secondary is more useful with BIAB to help clarify. Now I know that this may be up for discussion, since there's a strong movement to longer primary fermentation only, but because of the fact that BIAB does introduce more trub into the fermentor I feel that I should use the secondary to help clarify the beer. I'll have to test this one and just leave my next BIAB in the primary for a month and see if I can tell a difference.

2. Extra Trub - Brewers don't like the "grain dust" in the fermentor. This can almost be 1(b) as this is related to #1. I'm assuming that people just don't like the idea of extra trub in the fermentor. I have not had any off-flavors or negative reactions to having slightly more trub in the fermentor. I have added a few steps in order to reduce the amount of trub that gets into my fermentor, including Irish Moss, the "whirlpool", siphoning the wort through a grain bag laid across my fermentor, etc. (I know this may not be entirely necessary, but it makes me feel better that I will have less trub in the fermentor, mainly wanting to reduce the wort loss due to the trub.)

3. Tradition! - I feel like singing and dancing like a Fiddler when I think of this one. I feel that some people are really holding on tight to tradition "because that's how it's always been done". I understand that there may be some benefits to the traditional 3 vessel system, but I cant help but to think that while the exact process may be different, the outcome is still the same: great tasting beer! And yes, there may be the argument "Well, you cant brew this style exactly because you need this or that or can't do this or that..." To this I say, OK. I understand that BIAB is not the cure-all, do-all answer to brewing, but I just want to share my view on BIAB brewing. I really like the current evolution of brewers that try and innovate new ways/methods/ideas for brewing. :rockin: I would lump BIAB into this category. (I know its not THAT new, but still...)

4. Cost - I'm surprised, but then not really, when I mention BIAB at the LHBS (Austin Homebrew Supply :rockin. I've even read a couple of stories on here where their LHBS tries to sell the biggest, baddest setup with coolers, expensive kettles, -- the "works". So, say that the LBHS supports/promotes/suggests BIAB (single pot/turkey fryer in order to brew all grain), then that cuts into their bottom line. That would almost always never happen. They want to make money; it's a business, I get that. But it's sites like this one that are crucial to sharing ideas like BIAB. I found out about here. Learned a lot about it right here, enough to get me started on it. I never heard BIAB mentioned once at my LBHS. (I do want to say that I love my LBHS and the guys that work there and I'm sure that if I wanted to, I could find someone who would talk about it and say, "Just try it out and see if it works for you..")

5. "Not real brewing" - I've ordered grain a couple of times and asked them to double-crush the grain or crush a little finer for me. He gave me the "You know you get better efficiency with a courser crush..." I then mention that I BIAB and he replies "Oh, ok..." But I have to say that he didn't give me any trouble and did exactly what I asked. I just felt that once I mentioned BIAB, he thought of me as a lowly peasant of the brewing world. Maybe not, maybe its just me...

6. Time - People may be able to argue this one a little, but I feel that I am able to get through a brew session quicker with BIAB. Maybe not quicker than someone with a three tiered brew stand and what not, but see #4 and #7...

7. Space - This one is kinda self-explanatory. With a 3 vessel system, there's just more stuff to store away. If you've got space in your garage or whatever, then cool, no problem. But my SWMBO and even I don't want a whole mess of equipment to have to store away when not brewing. I only need my turkey fryer and a bucket; and I have those stored in my spare bedroom's closet.

8. Efficiency - Some brewers may say that you don't get good efficiency from BIAB. Well, I sparge while my grain is draining over the kettle. I know it's not a true BIAB in the sense that you're not supposed to sparge, etc, but I only use a 7.5G kettle right now, and I use a sparge to bring up my boil volume and to get more wort out of the grains. I'm running a pretty constant 73% "brewhouse" efficiency and I'm fine with that. And some are just not that concerned about high efficiency numbers.. Just give me an extra half a pound of grain, eeh, what's that? Like $0.60?

There may be a couple more, but I feel that this is already too long of a post. To summarize: I like BIAB because it's a cheap way to brew all-grain. (I'm surprised at how easy all-grain brewing is and how much better the beer is compared to extract! And buying grain is cheaper than buying extract!) At the end of the day, if there's clean wort and happy yeast in my fermentor, then I had a great brew day!

This hobby/passion/experience of brewing is an unceasing journey that many endure, although they may take different paths.

For me, the main reason would be mostly because of the weight. I simply can't lift much wet grain. Adding a winch or something would be harder than simply having my single tier set up. In fact, my friend (lschiavo on this forum) is helping me add a tippy dump to my MLT because I can't lift an MLT when it's full of wet grain once I get over about 20 pounds of grain.

Also, occasionally I do decoction mashing. Not often, but sometimes.

Lastly, my water. I have highly alkaline water that I treat in advance of brewing by mixing with RO and/or salts and acids. I do that in the HLT, so I need an HLT anyway. Nothing ever goes into my HLT except water.

There are other, smaller, issues, too. Like holding temps. Since I'm all electric, the easiest way to hold temperatures is with a HERMs. That still might work with BIAB, but it's really easier with a traditional MLT.

I actually started all grain brewing with a bag for three batches and put together a tun because I thought that was the "right" way to brew .... well I used the tun and though it worked just fine I found it to be just one more thing to have to clean .... I usually brew in my kitchen too so the cooler was just really in the way .... if the beer had been better I would still be using the tun .... but it just really wasn't ... just my 2 cents

Yooper said:

For me, the main reason would be mostly because of the weight. I simply can't lift much wet grain. Adding a winch or something would be harder than simply having my single tier set up. In fact, my friend (lschiavo on this forum) is helping me add a tippy dump to my MLT because I can't lift an MLT when it's full of wet grain once I get over about 20 pounds of grain.

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Sure, that's definitely a aspect that has to be considered. Since I only do 5G boils and have not done with a really, really big brew (1.100+) in it yet, my grain bills have not been 20lbs+... (And I've got big guns! )

Yooper said:

Also, occasionally I do decoction mashing. Not often, but sometimes.

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Again, stated that BIAB cannot be a solution for all, but isn't decoction mashing just taking some of the mash and boiling it on the stove? Cant that be done with BIAB too?

Yooper said:

Lastly, my water. I have highly alkaline water that I treat in advance of brewing by mixing with RO and/or salts and acids. I do that in the HLT, so I need an HLT anyway. Nothing ever goes into my HLT except water.

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Is there a reason that adding salts to the water in the kettle before BIAB mashing couldn't be done?

Yooper said:

There are other, smaller, issues, too. Like holding temps. Since I'm all electric, the easiest way to hold temperatures is with a HERMs. That still might work with BIAB, but it's really easier with a traditional MLT.

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True, holding temp can be an issue. I just wrap a sleeping bag around it, it only drops a degree or two over the hour. Plus, if I have to heat, I'll just pull the sleeping bag off and turn the burner on for a few seconds to a minute. And my response to the all electric setup, while it is easier to hold mash temps, it also costs more and takes up more space.

Not trying to be too argumentative, I love the points that you brought up! And I am humbled to have your presence in my thread!

I'll continue to use my 3 vessel system since it's easier for me to handle the grain and there is no bag to clean.

However, I have started doing BIAB in the house for half batches or in the dead cold of winter when I won't make myself stand out in the garage.

I think it's a great way to start in AG, or to do smaller batches. Pretty hard to recirculate a BIAB system...

I do BIAB for smaller batches but I already own the MLT cooler. No reason to buy more equipment to do what I already have spent money to do.

Homercidal said:

Pretty hard to recirculate a BIAB system...

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It doesn't seem that hard to me

I will admit that I'm only doing BIAB as I assemble the 3 vessel system, however. It does work in a pinch, but the lack of flexibility is annoying.

chalkdust41485 said:

Again, stated that BIAB cannot be a solution for all, but isn't decoction mashing just taking some of the mash and boiling it on the stove? Cant that be done with BIAB too?

Is there a reason that adding salts to the water in the kettle before BIAB mashing couldn't be done?

True, holding temp can be an issue. I just wrap a sleeping bag around it, it only drops a degree or two over the hour. Plus, if I have to heat, I'll just pull the sleeping bag off and turn the burner on for a few seconds to a minute. And my response to the all electric setup, while it is easier to hold mash temps, it also costs more and takes up more space.

Not trying to be too argumentative, I love the points that you brought up! And I am humbled to have your presence in my thread!

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I brew 10.5 gallon batches often, and I "need" the HLT because no way I could pretreat my water and then use my small 15.5 gallon keggle to hold all the water and the grain. I could get a bigger kettle, I guess, but that's really not needed with my three vessel system. I also can't turn on the burner, as I brew all-electric, when I need more heat.

Electric brewing is my preferred way, because I brew indoors. Our climate isn't really a great one for brewing in the fall/winter/spring (no hoses outdoors, for example) so indoor brewing is great.

Decoction mashing is indeed pulling out some of the grist and holding it at conversion temperatures and then returning it to the MLT. I could probably do it with BIAB. It's easy with my system now, though.

I think if I was starting out, and not wanting to brew indoors, maybe BIAB would work for me if I had a way to lift heavy bags of wet grain. I've seen guys in the garage using a winch or a pulley, and that is one way to do it for sure!

The advantage to a multi-vessel system is mostly based on efficiency, back to back or simultaneous batches, split boils, and capacity. However, for those who are sticking with 6 gallon batches, BIAB does seem attractive. I think the biggest hurdle is breaking tradition.

I really do like the idea of a single vessel electric BIAB with an overhead winch to lift the basket. I think you'd want a 20 gal vessel to be able to do 11 gallon batches. Adding a "side car" kettle of 10gallons or so would allow for a partigyle batch on the big beers.

I'm slightly concerned with having a element directly in the same vessel where the grains are mashing, but good recirculation should take care of it.

Reality is that some people prefer to do things one way or the other, and there isn't anything wrong with that. I do BIAB, but am gathering everything for a standard 3 vessel recirculating system.

Homercidal said:

I'll continue to use my 3 vessel system since it's easier for me to handle the grain and there is no bag to clean.

However, I have started doing BIAB in the house for half batches or in the dead cold of winter when I won't make myself stand out in the garage.

I think it's a great way to start in AG, or to do smaller batches. Pretty hard to recirculate a BIAB system...

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Not at all with a false bottom, and a pump.

Yooper said:

I brew 10.5 gallon batches often, and I "need" the HLT because no way I could pretreat my water and then use my small 15.5 gallon keggle to hold all the water and the grain. I could get a bigger kettle, I guess, but that's really not needed with my three vessel system. I also can't turn on the burner, as I brew all-electric, when I need more heat.

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If/when I move to a 10+ gallon brew, then I'd definitely have to move to a three vessel system. I agree with you there!

Bobby_M said:

The advantage to a multi-vessel system is mostly based on efficiency, back to back or simultaneous batches, split boils, and capacity.

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Yep... and flexibility (doing decoction or multi-step mashes for example).

And efficiency makes a big cost difference once you get to a certain point (15-20 gal batches, for example)

JeepDiver said:

Not at all with a false bottom, and a pump.

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Well, that is true. I guess I just assumed that anyone who's spent the money on those things probably built a cooler mash tun first.

I think biab is a great lower cost approach to migrate into all grain. Is it a viable method of brewing? Absolutely. Too many people have proved to themselves or others its viability (including myself).
I believe it boils down to personal preference, financial capacity, ego, “bling factor”, space requirements, type of product you a looking for and so on.
Whatever system works for a particular person that gets them to where they are comfortable and happy with the end product is the system for them.
Every process has its strengths and weaknesses, choose the one that best suits your brewing journey.
Dan

chalkdust41485 said:

1. Clarity - People may say that you won't get a clear beer from BIAB. To that I say, NAY!! While the WORT may be cloudier from the extra trub, i.e. "grain dust", it will settle out and you will get clear beer. I know this from experience. I've read people winning Lager categories at competitions using BIAB. There's nothing that time and a nice cold crash won't clear. The only negative that I see is that the use of a secondary is more useful with BIAB to help clarify. Now I know that this may be up for discussion, since there's a strong movement to longer primary fermentation only, but because of the fact that BIAB does introduce more trub into the fermentor I feel that I should use the secondary to help clarify the beer. I'll have to test this one and just leave my next BIAB in the primary for a month and see if I can tell a difference.

2. Extra Trub - Brewers don't like the "grain dust" in the fermentor. This can almost be 1(b) as this is related to #1. I'm assuming that people just don't like the idea of extra trub in the fermentor. I have not had any off-flavors or negative reactions to having slightly more trub in the fermentor. I have added a few steps in order to reduce the amount of trub that gets into my fermentor, including Irish Moss, the "whirlpool", siphoning the wort through a grain bag laid across my fermentor, etc. (I know this may not be entirely necessary, but it makes me feel better that I will have less trub in the fermentor, mainly wanting to reduce the wort loss due to the trub.)

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i recently bought myself a fine-mesh sieve and run my wort through it before hitting the primary vessel. i've found this really cuts down on how much "grain dust" makes it into the FV. i believe the mesh a hair finer than that of my funnel's built-in filter and since the sieve is bowl-shaped, it doesn't get stuck - there is more sieve for the wort to pass through = less chances of clogging all the passages, which was a common problem with my funnel's sieve/filter.

I started all grain brewing with BIAB. I did several batches that way until I hit the limit the bag and kettle could handle. Most of my current batches still exceed BIAB capabilities. With my current keg mash tun (1/2 bbl) I can mash about 30# of grain. It easily handles 28-29# of grain at a good ratio. I also like the ability to direct fire the mash tun to increase the temperature. That's not something I would want to do with a nylon bag resting in it.

IMO BIAB is a good way to get into all grain brewing with minimal initial cost. Some people even do it for years. I just imagine that most people will hit the limits of the method at some point and then make the shift.

BTW, I wouldn't want to try to lift, to drain, a bag holding 20#+ of satirated grain while it drains.

This is really a "why I don't AG" - Mainly there are other aspects that I should fix first in my beers (like temp control) before I get to AG. Plus (or maybe #1 in imporance) is I barely have space for my gear as it is. If my wife hadn't decided to introduce me to this hobby (and also get wine out of it for her) I think I'd have to give it up for the space it takes up. - and yeah I'm on my electric stove, so AG would have to be 3 gall max

With that said, If I had my choice? I don't know which I'd do. I'll proably look at BIAB to see if I can get the hang of the grains before investing in a lot more equipment.

I was told by an experienced home brewer and ranked BJCP member that BIAB is some BS cooked up by Australians to make inferior beer due to their laziness.

I asked him to elaborate, he just mumbled something about it being silly, skimping on the process and tradition.

I've been BIAB for the past 4 brews. They've been some of my best, easiest and least time consuming brews.

Buck the trend, do what you want. If someone likes having 8 hour brew days with tons of prep and clean up, pumps, 3 vessels, yada-yada, cool. If I had a 3 vessel system, I'd probably use it.

However, after BIAB, any motivation that I had to purchase some extra $500+ worth of equipment to accomplish the same thing as I can with a bag and a kettle, is completely gone.

arg said:

If someone likes having 8 hour brew days with tons of prep and clean up, pumps, 3 vessels, yada-yada, cool. If I had a 3 vessel system, I'd probably use it.

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The rest of your post was pretty factual... until this part... then I just rolled my eyes.

No need to get all preachy and distort reality in one fell swoop.

Homercidal said:

Well, that is true. I guess I just assumed that anyone who's spent the money on those things probably built a cooler mash tun first.

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Well for me I starte AG with BIAB, and bought a blichman for my kettle, figuring I would upgrade to a 3-kettle system latter on. My Beer is good enough for me, and several of my brew buddies with tricked out Brutus style systems think it is as good as theirs. I decided that there was no point in spending the money for 2 more kettles, and all the other parts, but wanted to be able to do step mashes for some more complicated brews so I got the false bottom for my kettle.

My next step will be the pump, to help with both the step mash and cooling.

I do things to help improve my beer, but don't see a 3 vessel system being worth the cost for what gain I will get.

Randar said:

The rest of your post was pretty factual... until this part... then I just rolled my eyes.

No need to get all preachy and distort reality in one fell swoop.

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Hah. Distort reality? Sorry if that doesn't meet your expectations. I'm just speaking from personal experience. I've had 8 hour brew days using my mash tun / turkey fryer combo. That means setting up, gathering materials, cooling, pitching, oxygenation, washing, drying and storing. These things add up, especially if you are doing a recipe with an extended mash, longer boil, etc.

In fact, that's why I used to started at 9AM every time I brewed. So that I might have time to do something else with my day. Can you bring that time down? Sure, but I don't like stopping half way through anything (clean up) nor do I like rushing around like a mad man trying to keep on top of everything. Mistakes get made, especially if I'm trying to enjoy my brew day.

BIAB allows for a quick, relaxed brew day. The "traditional method" involves far more equipment that all needs to be washed before and after use, extending the time from start to finish. That's my experience, and I reported as such.

I roll my eyes back at you, sir.

My brew days never take more than five hours from start to finish using a cooler MLT and stove top full-boil brewing. And that includes the time during the mash when we usually keg the last batch, making for a very productive brew day. Oh and did I mention we never play less than 1-2 games of NHL 2012 during that time period? Sure, I always lose, but we end up w/ great beer regardless

arg said:

Hah. Distort reality? Sorry if that doesn't meet your expectations. I'm just speaking from personal experience. I've had 8 hour brew days using my mash tun / turkey fryer combo. That means setting up, gathering materials, cooling, pitching, oxygenation, washing, drying and storing. These things add up, especially if you are doing a recipe with an extended mash, longer boil, etc.

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The majority of AG brewers I have talked to do a batch in under 5-6 hours... I usually do 15 gallons in ~6 hours or 2 batches in about 9-10 hrs and that includes a lot of extra heating time for all that extra liquid heating.

If explaining your experience, I don't care if you list 18 hours. If trying to justify it against the expected norm to prop up a "Why BIAB is so great" point? Not buying. BIAB has enough merits that it doesn't need gross exaggeration to try to make your point.

"If someone likes having 8 hour brew days with tons of prep and clean up, pumps, 3 vessels, yada-yada, cool."

Reads as a sarcastic remark. Maybe not intended, but tone doesn't translate well to the webtoobz.

Golddiggie said:

I also like the ability to direct fire the mash tun to increase the temperature. That's not something I would want to do with a nylon bag resting in it.

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you can use something as a false bottom to keep the bag away from direct contact with the pot's hot bottom.

(that last bit sounded naughty...)

sweetcell said:

you can use something as a false bottom to keep the bag away from direct contact with the pot's hot bottom.

(that last bit sounded naughty...)

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that's exactly what I do. I bought one of those retractable steamer baskets and place that on the bottom, then the bag doesn't get that close to the "pot's hot bottom". now I can just hit it with heat during the mash to keep the temp steady or step mash.

BIAB allowed me to transition to AG brewing with minimal investment into a burner and pot, now I'm looking at how I can swing an e-BIAB with pump for recirculation. Have made 4 batches with my current setup and everyone that tries them likes them, so I see no need to go to a 3 vessel setup for now. Maybe some day when I have more space and brew bigger batches, I will move to a more traditional setup.

I currently BIAB, started with a 15 gallon kettle - decided I wanted to do full volume mash 10 gallon batches and bought a 20 gallon kettle (use a basket to lift the bag with a ratchet strap attached to a beam in the garage), then bought a second 15 gallon pot so I could easily do 2 five gallon batches side by side when I didn't want to make 10 gallons of one batch.

Now that I've acquired most of the equipment, I'll probably try 3v before too long (can probably get 3 tiers using a table on the deck, the deck floor, and the yard). Getting above 1.065 preboil has proven difficult making it difficult to do high gravity beers without using too much DME. I also like the idea of playing around with decoction mashing, partigyles, FWH, mash hopping, etc - can be done with BIAB, but the results are probably better with a 3v setup.

I don't think I'll ever completely switch, I think depending on the recipe/process, the day, etc I'd probably decide whether to go 3v or BIAB that batch.

BIAB is too limiting to me as far as batch size, I have done it for a 5 gallon smash before though.

Your poll does not have an option for my a 2 vessel setup.

I'll concede on those points and agree, with exception.

Randar said:

...The majority of AG brewers I have talked to do a batch in under 5-6 hours...Granted, I'm just slow, perhaps too detail oriented, as well as lacking in an extra pair of hands or tools to make things move faster.

...BIAB has enough merits that it doesn't need gross exaggeration to try to make your point. I still maintain that it is not, for me, a "gross exaggeration." You're right, apparently my experience is not representative of the "typical" AG brew day.

..Reads as a sarcastic remark. Maybe not intended, but tone doesn't translate well to the webtoobz.

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My intent was not to be sarcastic. Allow me to amend my statement to make it more Interwebz PC:

"If someone feels that having extended brew days, using equipment that may be unnecessary in utility and cost, as well as being forced to properly maintain said equipment, so be it. However, I'm not convinced that the quality of the final product justifies any extra expense in time or finance."

I was just looking to describe it in the same way that I would describe someone with a fancy race car that will never "use" the full potential of the vehicle or see a track.

"If they like getting 11MPG, paying an extra $60,000 for a car and however much for insurance, a car that they aren't legally allowed to drive any faster than my $3,500 car, and still make it to work in the same amount of time, then so be it."

As mentioned, if I had a shiny, stainless 3 vessel system with pumps, plate chiller and other fancy gadgets, I would use it. If I had the car, I'd drive it.

Would I buy either? No.

Back on topic.

It seems to me that the only reason BIAB is not more seriously considered as replacing, or simply rivaling, the "traditional" method of brewing, is that such a system would, logistically, be nearly impossible to scale up. How do you make grains for a 15 BBL batch fit into a sack that can be raised above a vessel to drain? Judging by the comments, this seems to keep some 5-gallon batch brewers away, as well.

BIAB only works for home brewers it would seem, and thus it gets a bad rap as it has not been "endorsed" by the respected brew-heads. (that I am aware of )

I contend that BIAB may be so fantastic that if larger breweries COULD brew in that fashion, they would.

arg said:

Hah. Distort reality? Sorry if that doesn't meet your expectations. I'm just speaking from personal experience. I've had 8 hour brew days using my mash tun / turkey fryer combo. That means setting up, gathering materials, cooling, pitching, oxygenation, washing, drying and storing. These things add up, especially if you are doing a recipe with an extended mash, longer boil, etc.

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That's fine, that you're speaking from personal experience. But I think that I'd quit brewing if I had 8 hour brew days!

Depending on if I'm fly sparging or batch sparging, my brewdays vary from 4-4.5 hours total, including clean up.

Remember that we're talking about the system and comparing them. Sure, if I was poorly organized I could take longer. But I'd take longer than most at BIAB also. A well designed three vessel system compared to a well designed BIAB system should be what we're talking about.

A mash takes just as long, so saying "an extended mash or boil" taking longer in a three vessel system just isn't accurate, as I'd assume that you would do the same mash or boil with the BIAB.

The differences between BIAB and "traditional" methods may involve sparging differently (or not at all) and the lautering method. That really should be the only differences. Mashing, recirculating (if done), boiling, etc should all be the same.

I try to brew beer on a small scale in a similar way to big breweries.

Big breweries do not BiaB.

Plus I have my setup how I like it so I'm not interested in ditching gear I spent good money on just to try the bag method.

As long as the end result is good beer, its all good in my book.

Yooper,

You have a good point that I may not have initially gotten across: The time difference between BIAB and a 3 vessel system is probably not that much. It is dependent on how well prepared you are come brew day and other variables.

I think that people may have different definitions of the length of "brew day". I set up/move some of my equipment to the back door the night before. I could record every minute that I do something towards a brew, but, in reality, it really doesn't matter that much:
On average: 20 minute heat up + 1 hour mash + 1 hour boil + 20 min cool down + 20 minute transfer to fermentor/yeast pitching/storage = 3 hours.

Since 3 hours is the "core" of the brew day and is pretty much concrete, the other amount of time is prep and cleaning and is probably the biggest variance between brewers. Some are better at prep and cleanup than others.

H-ost,

As far as batch size is concerned: I'd have to agree to a point. Larger (10G and up) BIAB brews do present other challenges that you dont see at smaller volumes. Lifting the amount of grain being the biggest one that I see. However, I'd have to say that it's not impossible. Seven from the link that I posted has a very doable setup where he uses a "seafood boil"/steamer basket to assist in the lifting of the grain bag and draining. I think it is a very good idea and seems to work just fine for him. In his instructions, he doesn't sparge, but I could see that with a sparge and a final top up at the end with water that one could brew a 10G batch that way.

I would seriously think about it first before going down that rabbit hole. Just saying that it's possible. But I can see how it may be more and more difficult with the larger volumes.

malkore said:

I try to brew beer on a small scale in a similar way to big breweries.

Big breweries do not BiaB.

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I don't think that we have to follow big breweries methods just because thats how they do it. Its just a different take on it really, just a different way to extract the sugars from the grain.

malkore said:

Plus I have my setup how I like it so I'm not interested in ditching gear I spent good money on just to try the bag method.

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If I had all of the other brew equipment, I wouldn't want to ditch it either. I definitely wouldn't ask someone else too either.

malkore said:

As long as the end result is good beer, its all good in my book.

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To that, I cheers!

chalkdust41485 said:

Yooper,

You have a good point that I may not have initially gotten across: The time difference between BIAB and a 3 vessel system is probably not that much. It is dependent on how well prepared you are come brew day and other variables.

I think that people may have different definitions of the length of "brew day". I set up/move some of my equipment to the back door the night before. I could record every minute that I do something towards a brew, but, in reality, it really doesn't matter that much:
On average: 20 minute heat up + 1 hour mash + 1 hour boil + 20 min cool down + 20 minute transfer to fermentor/yeast pitching/storage = 3 hours.

Since 3 hours is the "core" of the brew day and is pretty much concrete, the other amount of time is prep and cleaning and is probably the biggest variance between brewers. Some are better at prep and cleanup than others.

H-ost,

As far as batch size is concerned: I'd have to agree to a point. Larger (10G and up) BIAB brews do present other challenges that you dont see at smaller volumes. Lifting the amount of grain being the biggest one that I see. However, I'd have to say that it's not impossible. Seven from the link that I posted has a very doable setup where he uses a "seafood boil"/steamer basket to assist in the lifting of the grain bag and draining. I think it is a very good idea and seems to work just fine for him. In his instructions, he doesn't sparge, but I could see that with a sparge and a final top up at the end with water that one could brew a 10G batch that way.

I would seriously think about it first before going down that rabbit hole. Just saying that it's possible. But I can see how it may be more and more difficult with the larger volumes.

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I guess that might bring up an advantage to the stand-alone three tier, maybe. My system is set up and ready to go. It has the same size footprint (pretty big, but as small as it can be) all the time. There is no set up and take down, and it's even set up for CIP.

My brewday is about the same length of time as yours, except I either batch sparge or fly sparge. Batch sparging adds maybe 10 minutes, but fly sparging may add an hour. It does take a few minutes to go from sparge temps to boiling, but I start the boil kettle when the first runnings go in, so it's about boiling by the time I finish sparging if batch sparging, and certainly if fly sparging it's in a full boil.

The bigger grain bills are where I see an advantage to my traditional system, simply just to have an HLT and sparging for the larger amount of grain. For a 5 gallon batch, BIAB would be just fine (again, assuming I could lift the grainbag out!).

All good points, and with that considered I only have one last thing to put into this conversation.

I do a full-volume BIAB. What does that do to the pH? I know that going out of the usual water to grist ratio should have an effect on the pH and thus tannin extraction, among other things. If I brew a beer with a typical 1.3 ratio and another with the BIAB full-volume method and they are perceivably the same after fermentation, where does that leave us?

At what point does the water to grist ratio become an essential factor in getting the mash just right? If on a low OG, 5 gallon batch the differences aren't noticable, that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't there.

Is it just a factor of scale that allows us not to worry so much about that issue?

Edit: I'm thinking about what was said in this thread, particularly: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/mash-ph-full-volume-no-sparge-mash-146961/

jds said:

So, doubling the amount of water would (in this simplified and theoretical condition) lead to an increase in mash pH, from 5.2 to 5.5. In other words, doubling the amount of water leads to only a shift of about 0.3 pH. Now, combine that with the effects of the buffering capacity of "real" water (not to mention the use of buffers like Five Star's pH5.2) and the actual effect seems, at least to me, to be essentially negligible for the home brewer.
...
3 qts / lb is not anywhere near too thin a mash for a no-sparge brewing process.

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sometimes i use biab for smaller batches or partial mashes- anything over like 10 lbs of grain dripping in a bag freaks me out. that's how you get ants.

arg said:

All good points, and with that considered I only have one last thing to put into this conversation.

I do a full-volume BIAB. What does that do to the pH? I know that going out of the usual water to grist ratio should have an effect on the pH and thus tannin extraction, among other things. If I brew a beer with a typical 1.3 ratio and another with the BIAB full-volume method and they are perceivably the same after fermentation, where does that leave us?

At what point does the water to grist ratio become an essential factor in getting the mash just right? If on a low OG, 5 gallon batch the differences aren't noticable, that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't there.

Is it just a factor of scale that allows us not to worry so much about that issue?

Edit: I'm thinking about what was said in this thread, particularly: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/mash-ph-full-volume-no-sparge-mash-146961/

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good point there. I was actually thinking of the same exact thing. I'll have to check out that link. I was thinking about using some ph test strips on my next brew.

malkore said:

Big breweries do not BiaB

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Coming back into brewing into brewing after a decade lapse I have adopted the attitude that I care about as much what big brewers do while making beer as I do about what Hostess does while making Wonder bread.

BIAB is a fantastic simplification to me. If you are a higher volume homebrewer then I could see the attraction of a larger setup.

chalkdust41485 said:

On average: 20 minute heat up + 1 hour mash + 1 hour boil + 20 min cool down + 20 minute transfer to fermentor/yeast pitching/storage = 3 hours.

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Or, BIAB + no-chill + ferment in BK: 20 minute heat up + 1 hour mash + 1 hour boil

And I'm not convinced that a full 60min boil is needed for no-chill.

But it's all good. Brew the way that works for you.

I like BIAB if the weather sucks since I usually brew in my garage. I have to go outside to get there with some of the equipment.

I find BIAB to be a bit of a PITA. Heavy hot wet bag to lift out and drain or squeeze without dropping back in or dribbling all over the stove.

Boil overs in the garage are not much of a concern. On my last brew day the foam was just starting so I decided to go get my Fermcap in case of a foam up. By the time I got back (less than 2 minutes) it had foamed over!

Got out the hose and washed the garage out.